Sexism in video games.

[Ostroeuropa]

I do not consider, "Good point, girls ARE icky-poo! Let us change our name to appease you, douchebags of the world! After all, our job is to appeal to you, right?" to be particularly good PR.

I mean, look at what we're dealing with here. The argument was that a woman who discusses sexism in video game culture shouldn't be listened to because she got a RELEASE DATE WRONG.

The argument literally is "your claim that a hypersexualized storyline in which rescuing a, presumably heretosexual female, whose sole purpose in the plotline is to allow for heroics centered around the male hero, is a profoundly sexist because it continues the image that women exist only in relation to men, and only as narrative tools in their story, the only one worth following, and must remain helpless until rescued, doesn't count, because you said Tomb Raider came out in May and it came out in EARLY JUNE!

CHECKMATE FEMINISTS!"

This is, literally, what people think is an argument.

I'll reitterate my earlier statement. Absolutely fucking pathetic.

When all she's doing is stating the obvious, OR getting figures wrong, it becomes incredibly difficult to take her seriously.
Those are the only things she does.
Yes, most characters in popularized fiction are going to be white heterosexual males. We know this. We've known this for a while. So why the fuck does she think it needs a massive video series explaining that it's happening, when, you know.
We can see it happening. And what's worse is, she doesn't mention the exceptions like Metroid, so it's not even her listing off the state of the industry.
It's her listing a bunch of examples.
A fucking wikipedia category list has exactly as much content.
Just list off the examples.
Get shit wrong when you do it though, that's important.
And fuck, don't even just list off the examples.
Spend ages and ages explaining the same shit, over and over and over for each game.

[Novislavia]

Well no, but some good PR never hurt anybody.

I do not consider, "Good point, girls ARE icky-poo! Let us change our name to appease you, douchebags of the world! After all, our job is to appeal to you, right?" to be particularly good PR.

You know very well that's not what I'm saying. If a group if people are promoting gender equality, it's only fair that they name their cause accordingly. It's like if a group of men got together and decided that women should have all the same rights as them, but they called themselves masculists. It doesn't make sense.

Of course I'm not particularly dogmatic about the name change, I'm just expressing my opinion.

[British Prussia]

Ellie is my hero.

[Dakini]

I mean, look at what we're dealing with here. The argument was that a woman who discusses sexism in video game culture shouldn't be listened to because she got a RELEASE DATE WRONG.

The argument literally is "your claim that a hypersexualized storyline in which rescuing a, presumably heretosexual female, whose sole purpose in the plotline is to allow for heroics centered around the male hero, is a profoundly sexist because it continues the image that women exist only in relation to men, and only as narrative tools in their story, the only one worth following, and must remain helpless until rescued, doesn't count, because you said Tomb Raider came out in May and it came out in EARLY JUNE!

CHECKMATE FEMINISTS!"

This is, literally, what people think is an argument.

I'll reitterate my earlier statement. Absolutely fucking pathetic.

When all she's doing is stating the obvious, OR getting figures wrong, it becomes incredibly difficult to take her seriously.
Those are the only things she does.

Says the guy who very clearly hasn't watched any of her stuff and has very obviously only watched the "rebuttals" of angry men on youtube who don't know the meanings of "concise" "editing" or "production value".

Yes, most characters in popularized fiction are going to be white heterosexual males. We know this. We've known this for a while. So why the fuck does she think it needs a massive video series explaining that it's happening, when, you know.

That's not even what the series is about. It focuses on the roles women play in video games. Also, the series was initially going to be relatively short (I think the original kickstarter was for 6 videos), but since she surpassed her goals she's adding more.

We can see it happening.

Where "we" are people who refuse to see.

[Sommorragh]

So violence against men is okay, but against women is not?

How in the hell did you get that from anything he said?

I say that because Gauntleted raised no quarrel with men being tortured, beaten and the like in the same game.

[Gauntleted Fist]

Star Wars: The Old Republic.

In which you can literally shock (This is exclusively for one female character) and beat your companions causing them to cry. It's legitimately terrible.

Done by the same company that you advocate as 'progressive'. They're just a little less bad than most other development companies.

So violence against men is okay, but against women is not?

What the fuck?

[Ifreann]

How in the hell did you get that from anything he said?

I say that because Gauntleted raised no quarrel with men being tortured, beaten and the like in the same game.

Yes he did. You're reading it wrong. Probably on purpose.

[Ostroeuropa]

When all she's doing is stating the obvious, OR getting figures wrong, it becomes incredibly difficult to take her seriously.
Those are the only things she does.

Says the guy who very clearly hasn't watched any of her stuff and has very obviously only watched the "rebuttals" of angry men on youtube who don't know the meanings of "concise" "editing" or "production value".

Yes, most characters in popularized fiction are going to be white heterosexual males. We know this. We've known this for a while. So why the fuck does she think it needs a massive video series explaining that it's happening, when, you know.

That's not even what the series is about. It focuses on the roles women play in video games. Also, the series was initially going to be relatively short (I think the original kickstarter was for 6 videos), but since she surpassed her goals she's adding more.

We can see it happening.

Where "we" are people who refuse to see.

I've seen her videos. I don't care about the production values. I care about the content.
That is what the series is about, precisely because of that problem in media. Females will always be relegated to secondary character status, because of that pervasive problem. The nature of that secondary character status doesn't seem at all relevant.
Considering the budget for these videos is somewhere between nothing and the price of a napkin, i'm guessing we can expect a trillion videos.
Who's refusing to see it?

[Nailed to the Perch]

I do not consider, "Good point, girls ARE icky-poo! Let us change our name to appease you, douchebags of the world! After all, our job is to appeal to you, right?" to be particularly good PR.

You know very well that's not what I'm saying. If a group if people are promoting gender equality, it's only fair that they name their cause accordingly. It's like if a group of men got together and decided that women should have all the same rights as them, but they called themselves masculists. It doesn't make sense.

Of course I'm not particularly dogmatic about the name change, I'm just expressing my opinion.

The cause IS named accordingly. The purpose of the feminist movement is and always has been to raise women up to the same level as men. In the same way that the gay rights movement is not the "sexuality rights movement" but rather refers specifically to the sexuality that is marginalized, the movement for the social and political equality of the genders refers specifically to the gender that is marginalized. Arguing that we should gloss over the fact that women are still a marginalized class in order to make sexists feel more comfortable is very much like telling gay rights supporters, "Wouldn't you appeal to more people if you stopped acting so GAY all the time?" They might! But I don't know why the fuck they'd want to appeal to those people.

[Gauntleted Fist]

How in the hell did you get that from anything he said?

I say that because Gauntleted raised no quarrel with men being tortured, beaten and the like in the same game.

Violence against anyone in a video game is fine. I play player versus player combat to brutally slaughter tens of thousands of enemy players of both genders.

Please tell me which male companion you can both torture and romance in a helpless situation?

I mean I think what the Sith Warrior did to Malavai Quinn was pretty goddamn brutal, but that can be done as both male and female so I'm not sure of any companion that is in the same situation as Vette but gender reversed?

[Sommorragh]

I say that because Gauntleted raised no quarrel with men being tortured, beaten and the like in the same game.

Yes he did. You're reading it wrong. Probably on purpose.

Most likely. Still, it's not inherintly sexist for a women to be subjected to torture in a video game if there are male characters also being subjected to it.

[Dakini]

Says the guy who very clearly hasn't watched any of her stuff and has very obviously only watched the "rebuttals" of angry men on youtube who don't know the meanings of "concise" "editing" or "production value".


That's not even what the series is about. It focuses on the roles women play in video games. Also, the series was initially going to be relatively short (I think the original kickstarter was for 6 videos), but since she surpassed her goals she's adding more.


Where "we" are people who refuse to see.

I've seen her videos. I don't care about the production values. I care about the content.

I somehow don't believe it. Also, you haven't responded to my other post. I assume because you can't.

That is what the series is about, precisely because of that problem in media. Females will always be relegated to secondary character status, because of that pervasive problem. The nature of that secondary character status doesn't seem at all relevant.

And that's where you're wrong. Just because you don't think it's interesting, doesn't mean that nobody does and just because you think she got all of her money because of the bullying... well, considering that she was fully funded for the initial project before the bullying began... you're kinda entirely wrong.

Considering the budget for these videos is somewhere between nothing and the price of a napkin, i'm guessing we can expect a trillion videos.

Uh... no. Considering that her videos are first of all, not just her sitting in front of her laptop webcam staring down at the screen and showing off her nosehairs, but that they actually have graphics, they probably actually do cost money to produce. The production costs are probably comparable to the crash course/sci show/etc videos put out by the vlogbrothers but they likely take longer to produce so in the sense of time being money (she's actually a trained professional and such)...

Who's refusing to see it?

You. I thought that was obvious.

[Sommorragh]

I say that because Gauntleted raised no quarrel with men being tortured, beaten and the like in the same game.

Violence against anyone in a video game is fine. I play player versus player combat to brutally slaughter tens of thousands of enemy players of both genders.

Please tell me which male companion you can both torture and romance in a helpless situation?

I mean I think what the Sith Warrior did to Malavai Quinn was pretty goddamn brutal, but that can be done as both male and female so I'm not sure of any companion that is in the same situation as Vette but gender reversed?

Both? None that I can think of. But, you can still do the two things mentioned to different chars.
Anyway, I'm off before I tarnish what little is left of my reputation.

[Gauntleted Fist]

Violence against anyone in a video game is fine. I play player versus player combat to brutally slaughter tens of thousands of enemy players of both genders.

Please tell me which male companion you can both torture and romance in a helpless situation?

I mean I think what the Sith Warrior did to Malavai Quinn was pretty goddamn brutal, but that can be done as both male and female so I'm not sure of any companion that is in the same situation as Vette but gender reversed?

Both? None that I can think of. But, you can still do the two things mentioned to different chars.
Anyway, I'm off before I tarnish what little is left of my reputation.

"But it's not sexist. You can do those things to other people. Just not in the same situation at all or with the same sort of backstory and context."

????

[The Steel Magnolia]

I mean, look at what we're dealing with here. The argument was that a woman who discusses sexism in video game culture shouldn't be listened to because she got a RELEASE DATE WRONG.

The argument literally is "your claim that a hypersexualized storyline in which rescuing a, presumably heretosexual female, whose sole purpose in the plotline is to allow for heroics centered around the male hero, is a profoundly sexist because it continues the image that women exist only in relation to men, and only as narrative tools in their story, the only one worth following, and must remain helpless until rescued, doesn't count, because you said Tomb Raider came out in May and it came out in EARLY JUNE!

CHECKMATE FEMINISTS!"

This is, literally, what people think is an argument.

I'll reitterate my earlier statement. Absolutely fucking pathetic.

When all she's doing is stating the obvious, OR getting figures wrong, it becomes incredibly difficult to take her seriously.
Those are the only things she does.
Yes, most characters in popularized fiction are going to be white heterosexual males. We know this. We've known this for a while. So why the fuck does she think it needs a massive video series explaining that it's happening, when, you know.
We can see it happening. And what's worse is, she doesn't mention the exceptions like Metroid, so it's not even her listing off the state of the industry.
It's her listing a bunch of examples.
A fucking wikipedia category list has exactly as much content.
Just list off the examples.
Get shit wrong when you do it though, that's important.
And fuck, don't even just list off the examples.
Spend ages and ages explaining the same shit, over and over and over for each game.

Perhaps because most people don't actually know.

[Ostroeuropa]

I've seen her videos. I don't care about the production values. I care about the content.

I somehow don't believe it. Also, you haven't responded to my other post. I assume because you can't.

That is what the series is about, precisely because of that problem in media. Females will always be relegated to secondary character status, because of that pervasive problem. The nature of that secondary character status doesn't seem at all relevant.

And that's where you're wrong.

Considering the budget for these videos is somewhere between nothing and the price of a napkin, i'm guessing we can expect a trillion videos.

Uh... no. Considering that her videos are first of all, not just her sitting in front of her laptop webcam staring down at the screen and showing off her nosehairs, but that they actually have graphics, they probably actually do cost money to produce. The production costs are probably comparable to the crash course/sci show/etc videos put out by the vlogbrothers but they likely take longer to produce so in the sense of time being money (she's actually a trained professional and such)...

Who's refusing to see it?

You. I thought that was obvious.

Didn't respond because it's not worth responding. You didn't address anything.

How am I wrong?

Look, i've worked in media for video editing. I know for a fact that once you buy the equipment (which she must have already had access to), and know how to use it, there are no extra costs. There is no such thing as a "more expensive" graphic. If she's hiring someone ELSE to do the graphics, then yeh. Maybe. But like you said, SHE is the professional here. There should be 0 costs.

So I'm refusing to see something that i'm emphatically claiming is obvious and everyone knows about? Tell me more.

[Dakini]

When all she's doing is stating the obvious, OR getting figures wrong, it becomes incredibly difficult to take her seriously.
Those are the only things she does.
Yes, most characters in popularized fiction are going to be white heterosexual males. We know this. We've known this for a while. So why the fuck does she think it needs a massive video series explaining that it's happening, when, you know.
We can see it happening. And what's worse is, she doesn't mention the exceptions like Metroid, so it's not even her listing off the state of the industry.
It's her listing a bunch of examples.
A fucking wikipedia category list has exactly as much content.
Just list off the examples.
Get shit wrong when you do it though, that's important.
And fuck, don't even just list off the examples.
Spend ages and ages explaining the same shit, over and over and over for each game.

Perhaps because most people don't actually know.

Reading this thread makes this fact blatantly obvious.

[Ostroeuropa]

When all she's doing is stating the obvious, OR getting figures wrong, it becomes incredibly difficult to take her seriously.
Those are the only things she does.
Yes, most characters in popularized fiction are going to be white heterosexual males. We know this. We've known this for a while. So why the fuck does she think it needs a massive video series explaining that it's happening, when, you know.
We can see it happening. And what's worse is, she doesn't mention the exceptions like Metroid, so it's not even her listing off the state of the industry.
It's her listing a bunch of examples.
A fucking wikipedia category list has exactly as much content.
Just list off the examples.
Get shit wrong when you do it though, that's important.
And fuck, don't even just list off the examples.
Spend ages and ages explaining the same shit, over and over and over for each game.

Perhaps because most people don't actually know.

Don't actually know what, that most lead characters in media are white heterosexual males?
Bullshit.
You'd have to be so insanely stupid not to notice it that you couldn't even find the internet in the first place.
Find me someone who thinks most lead characters in media aren't white heterosexual males.

[Ashihara no Nakatsukuni]

Perhaps because most people don't actually know.

Reading this thread makes this fact blatantly obvious.

The only thing I'll agree with their rant on the video is that she does constantly repeat the same information, over and over and over. I only got about five minutes in because I was tired of being explained to what damsel in distress was about and that there was violence. I know! You are already told me four times before!

[Sommorragh]

Both? None that I can think of. But, you can still do the two things mentioned to different chars.
Anyway, I'm off before I tarnish what little is left of my reputation.

"But it's not sexist. You can do those things to other people. Just not in the same situation at all or with the same sort of backstory and context."

????

Even if it were sexist, does it really matter? Are you really that sensitive that you can't handle it? If don't like it, you always have the option of not engaging in it.

[Dakini]

I somehow don't believe it. Also, you haven't responded to my other post. I assume because you can't.


And that's where you're wrong.


Uh... no. Considering that her videos are first of all, not just her sitting in front of her laptop webcam staring down at the screen and showing off her nosehairs, but that they actually have graphics, they probably actually do cost money to produce. The production costs are probably comparable to the crash course/sci show/etc videos put out by the vlogbrothers but they likely take longer to produce so in the sense of time being money (she's actually a trained professional and such)...


You. I thought that was obvious.

Didn't respond because it's not worth responding. You didn't address anything.

Neither have you. All you've done is scream "nobody gives a fuck about what this bitch has to say!" over and over. Considering that the post you haven't addressed is where I point out that your claim that she cried over nothing was total horseshit, I understand why you ignored it though. So after this we're done.

How am I wrong?

You missed my addition here:

Just because you don't think it's interesting, doesn't mean that nobody does and just because you think she got all of her money because of the bullying... well, considering that she was fully funded for the initial project before the bullying began... you're kinda entirely wrong.

(source provided earlier... not that you're going to click)

Look, i've worked in media for video editing. I know for a fact that once you buy the equipment (which she must have already had access to), and know how to use it, there are no extra costs. There is no such thing as a "more expensive" graphic. If she's hiring someone ELSE to do the graphics, then yeh. Maybe. But like you said, SHE is the professional here. There should be 0 costs.

She's a professional. She's totally entitled to ask for compensation for her time as well as for the resources to buy the games so she could have a representative sample. Many people are happy to give her the money to do this (and did).

So I'm refusing to see something that i'm emphatically claiming is obvious and everyone knows about? Tell me more.

Nope. If you can't read the thread or be bothered to look around and see things that are right in front of your face then I'm not going to waste more of my time on you.

[Dakini]

Reading this thread makes this fact blatantly obvious.

The only thing I'll agree with their rant on the video is that she does constantly repeat the same information, over and over and over. I only got about five minutes in because I was tired of being explained to what damsel in distress was about and that there was violence. I know! You are already told me four times before!

Sometimes she's repetitive because the storylines involving women in the videogames are repetitive.

In the one I just linked (part II to the damsel in distress) she was describing the plots to a few games and they went like this:
"In <insert game name here> your wife is brutally murdered and you have to save your daughter" (cutscene plays in the background)
"In <insert another game name here> your wife is brutally murdered and you have to save your daughter" (a new cutscene plays in the background)
"In <insert yet another game name here> your wife is brutally murdered and you have to save your daughter" (yet another cutscene plays in the background)

There were more than three repetitions, but it sort of hammered home the point that roles for women in video games can be quite... limiting.

[Nailed to the Perch]

"But it's not sexist. You can do those things to other people. Just not in the same situation at all or with the same sort of backstory and context."

????

Even if it were sexist, does it really matter?

Yes.

This has been another edition of Simple Answers to Stupid Questions.

(Seriously, you are on page 35 of a thread about sexism in video games, full of quite a lot of posts from people saying it matters and giving reasons why it matters, and your contribution to the thread is "does it matter?" Good grief.)

[Ostroeuropa]

Didn't respond because it's not worth responding. You didn't address anything.

Neither have you. All you've done is scream "nobody gives a fuck about what this bitch has to say!" over and over. Considering that the post you haven't addressed is where I point out that your claim that she cried over nothing was total horseshit, I understand why you ignored it though. So after this we're done.

How am I wrong?

You missed my addition here:

Just because you don't think it's interesting, doesn't mean that nobody does and just because you think she got all of her money because of the bullying... well, considering that she was fully funded for the initial project before the bullying began... you're kinda entirely wrong.

(source provided earlier... not that you're going to click)

Look, i've worked in media for video editing. I know for a fact that once you buy the equipment (which she must have already had access to), and know how to use it, there are no extra costs. There is no such thing as a "more expensive" graphic. If she's hiring someone ELSE to do the graphics, then yeh. Maybe. But like you said, SHE is the professional here. There should be 0 costs.

She's a professional. She's totally entitled to ask for compensation for her time as well as for the resources to buy the games so she could have a representative sample. Many people are happy to give her the money to do this (and did).

So I'm refusing to see something that i'm emphatically claiming is obvious and everyone knows about? Tell me more.

Nope. If you can't read the thread or be bothered to look around and see things that are right in front of your face then I'm not going to waste more of my time on you.

This first paragraph? Useless. It's precisely like your other post. No claim argued, no facts, just whining. I'm only addressing this because otherwise the order of reply would be out of whack.

So that isn't where i'm wrong then.
When you say "That's where you're wrong" you don't then go off on a tangent about an unrelated claim. But ok. Sure. She may have been funded beforehand. Doesn't mean she doesn't ramp it up on purpose. It also means you utterly failed to address what I actually said in the thing you responded to, but just pretended to. If you don't want to respond, don't respond. I'm fine with not responding to things. I don't PRETEND i've responded to them.

Not what she said she needed the money for. She said she needed it for research. Considering the game footage she uses is publically available... she probably doesn't even buy the games.

So you're expecting me to prove a negative here and demonstrate something doesn't exist? (Someone ignorant of the predominance of WHM)
Yeh you're right, we're done.

[Neo Art]

Even if it were sexist, does it really matter?

Yes.

This has been another edition of Simple Answers to Stupid Questions.

(Seriously, you are on page 35 of a thread about sexism in video games, full of quite a lot of posts from people saying it matters and giving reasons why it matters, and your contribution to the thread is "does it matter?" Good grief.)

Titles of things should be underlined.

CHECKMATE FEMINISTS!