Sexism in video games.

[Freelanderness]

Reasons I hate video games:

1. I want to play as a female. Sometimes this isn't even an option. When it is, each of my boobs are larger than my face. Or there's no musculature. Or boob chest plates (because that's so realistic). Or everything is a skirt. Basically the game screams at me THIS IS WHAT FEMININITY IS. BE FEMININE. BE THIN. BE BOOBS. BE PRETTY. no fuck you, you stupid-heteronormative-gender-role-enforcing-harmful-stereotype-continuing-piece-of-shit. basically everything i hate about the media, being re-hashed and thrown back at me. like no.

2. and that's only when you can choose to be female. many games don't even include the option, and are always narrated by some heteronormative white man. Fuck that. If I wanted that kind of angst, i'd just go read mainstream news. Seriously, give me a black woman's narrative, or someone's who's LGBTAQ or someone who's got a disability, or any kind of diversity PLEASE.

3. and then we get to the actual game play, where you get treated like shit by half of the players, while the other half tries to date you, and then treats you like even more shit when you're either a.) not sexy (in their humble opinion) or b.) you're not single, or the worst of them all: c.) you turn them down. You can get used to the same kind of harassment you get walking down the street, and multiply it by ten-fold.

4. basically this is why i never play games/watch tv/participate in popular culture and this is why. but sexism doesn't exist

1. Legit complaint. Though, remember, games are meant to appeal to who? Teenage boys. Horny teenage boys.

2. Makes sense for a lot of games, especially FPS games. I mean, sure, you can have the black lesbian transwoman who got caught in the firefight between Soap, Capt. Price, Yuri, and the African militia, but that would be boring. However, you neglect a lot of games which let you do that (RPGs, especially Fallout)

3. Only a problem in MMORPGs, really. That's player behavior.

Really though, it shouldn't be that difficult to diversify. People have shown again and again that they are willing to buy games centered around women, around minorities, et al. And contrary to popular belief, women actually make up almost fifty percent of the gaming market now.

Yeah, but that environment is SO toxic.

[Freelanderness]

She is? In the new one? This is intriguing.

Well apparently its still sexist because she gets killed.

Speaking from an expert standpoint, are we? Haha, oh wait, except it would kill you.

I guess the same could be said about any set of ornate chestwear, its not designed for practicality.

Hooo lord, because people fight in ornate armour...

[Freelanderness]

It's not up to you to decide what grievances are legitimate or not. Or else I'll be forced to make a remark about privilege. And we don't want me to go full SJW.

Actually, as a thinking human being, it is up to me to decide what grievances are legitimate or not. Those who claim that one cannot make such decisions are little more than automaton following a set pattern of acceptable behavior without examining the deeper ramifications for the moral system imposed upon them by their culture or subculture.

In other words, that shit is for the birds; if you can think, it's up to you to make value judgments - not anyone else. So buck up and take a little responsibility for your own views.

I take full responsibility for them, but I deny that your judgement has any more merit than my own, or that your own judgement has any more relevancy to the issue at hand than my own. And nice sheeple dig, real good argumentation.

[Freelanderness]

Hooo lord, because people fight in ornate armour...

Did you miss the middle ages and renaissance?

No, but apparently you did...

[Freelanderness]

Speaking from an expert standpoint, are we? Haha, oh wait, except it would kill you.

Remind me again why realism matters across the board in video games.

I thought fictional media was supposed to have some license in that regard. Being.

You know.

Fictional.

Oh, but that breaks the historical accuracy! Because you know, that's what people have been arguing for why minority characters can't be included, because it's not realistic enough...

[Freelanderness]

I take full responsibility for them, but I deny that your judgement has any more merit than my own, or that your own judgement has any more relevancy to the issue at hand than my own. And nice sheeple dig, real good argumentation.

Actually, you're claiming that your judgement has more merit and relevancy than my own, seeing as you told me that it isn't up to me to decide what grievances are legitimate or not. By making that claim, you either are saying that you are inherently superior in your ability to discern the 'true' value of things (Unlikely from Tumblr types like you), or else saying that value judgments do not come from the individual.

The third option is that you didn't think your objection through, but I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Value judgements come from the individual. I; however, have no obligation to regard your opinion as higher than my own. And this is getting pretty tangential...

[Freelanderness]

Really though, it shouldn't be that difficult to diversify. People have shown again and again that they are willing to buy games centered around women, around minorities, et al. And contrary to popular belief, women actually make up almost fifty percent of the gaming market now.

Yeah, but that environment is SO toxic.

Not at all, but, again, with some games it makes sense to have a whitewashed, male cast (every WWII shooter). Others can, and should, diversify (RPGs especially). A good shooter with diversity, that I found, was Halo: Reach. You had the Obligatory White Guy (Carter), A strong woman (Kat), a smart woman (Halsey), Obligatory British Dude With A Mexican name (Jorge), Black Guy (Emile), Asian Man (Jun), and Noble Six could be whatever you wanted him/her to be, because gender was changeable (and had no effect on storyline because, fuck it, they are all Spartans.).

I don't think it matters to be historically accurate in a videogame, so we're going to have to disagree.

[Freelanderness]

No, but apparently you did...

Ironically enough modern Fencing has 'boob-plates' but I guess those are quite specific.
In any case there was numerous cases of soldiers (particularly leaders) using stylised armors that weren't particularly effective as far as protection goes, from the Romans, Greeks, to the 16th Century (And you can see this in some of the paintings of the time).

Okay, paintings are not representative. Burial armour is not representative. Joan of Arc? no boobplate!

[Freelanderness]

Oh, but that breaks the historical accuracy! Because you know, that's what people have been arguing for why minority characters can't be included, because it's not realistic enough...

Oh, like you mean an effectively complete lack of female warriors, mentally ill jesters, chained bears for entertainment, disabled people being killed at birth or spending the rest of their life tormented? Oh, and every single world being dominated by a monotony of peasants and barbaric practices. I mean for that matter we should enforce racism, sexism and the like in these games if we wanted it to be strictly realistic.

See? We're on the same side here.

[Freelanderness]

Okay, paintings are not representative. Burial armour is not representative. Joan of Arc? no boobplate!

*because she was given a males armor literally.

Okay you need to sort out your argument here. Neither males or females fought in armour that concaved on the sternum (or at least, they did not last very long if they did). It's not historically accurate, nor is it practical in any modern sense either. The only use is sexualisation. Do we agree thus far?

[Freelanderness]

Value judgements come from the individual. I; however, have no obligation to regard your opinion as higher than my own. And this is getting pretty tangential...

If you think that I'm saying that my opinion is higher than yours, you clearly didn't read the post. I accused you of either: getting your morals from a third party, thinking of your opinion as inherently higher than mine, or not thinking your objection through.

All morals are based on third party influences. Welcome to sociology

[Freelanderness]

All morals are based on third party influences. Welcome to sociology

All morals are influenced by third parties. There's a difference.

OK. But the individual is formed by third parties. Literally.

[Freelanderness]

OK. But the individual is formed by third parties. Literally.

An individual is both a part of society and apart from it. Whatever influences society brings upon a person, ultimately, they are responsible for themselves and their positions.

I don't deny personal responsibility. And I fail to see what this has to do with the original topic anymore.

[Frisivisia]

Women are also not served well by annoying "girl gamers" who really make a point of making sure you know they're female. It only makes all women in video games targets for trolls because they know that women attract white knights like lightning rods.

[Frisivisia]

Lets compromise, in Skyrim the ladies have giant tits, while still being able to brutally murder you. I think thats a good compromise.

Where are you people getting this idea that the women in Skyrim have giant tits? Have you people ever played the game or do you just look at mods?

There is the weight slider, but that just makes them bigger altogether. The only really revealing pieces of armor are the fur armors, and they're revealing for the male characters too. Skyrim is a pretty bad example of sexism in video games, it features several strong female characters who think as well and independently as the male ones, (which doesn't say much given Artificial Stupidity and the fact that it's a single player game).

[Frisivisia]

Where are you people getting this idea that the women in Skyrim have giant tits? Have you people ever played the game or do you just look at mods?

Agreed. At the risk of sounding like a complete creep, the ladies in Skyrim generally have breasts that are appropriate for their frames.

In fact, Skyrim is one of the more progressive games I know of. Many of the women in this game are leaders, warriors, and overall important characters. (Side note: the game is also accepting of LGBT gamers, which is still rare in the community)

There are multiple Jarls, high and low level Legion and Stormcloak soldiers, bandits, vampires, rural tribesmen and women, etc. In fact, there's about the same chance of a randomly generated foe or friend being female as male. There are also gay and lesbian characters and the player can opt to be so too.

[Frisivisia]

There is the weight slider, but that just makes them bigger altogether. The only really revealing pieces of armor are the fur armors, and they're revealing for the male characters too. Skyrim is a pretty bad example of sexism in video games, it features several strong female characters who think as well and independently as the male ones, (which doesn't say much given Artificial Stupidity and the fact that it's a single player game).

Actually, it was brought up as an example of a good game initially. Then this post:

So... what about the fact that most males in Skyrim are ultra buff and full of muscles. Aint that sexism?

Is where we get the "Skyrim is sexist" claims starting. Amazingly, it was someone who doesn't think that video games are generally sexist (except when they're sexist against men).

Skyrim is one of the really shining examples of a game that shows that you don't need to try hard to make your games progressive. The game doesn't necessarily feel oddly unbalanced with copious amounts of women or men.

[Frisivisia]

I'm half asleep already and thus probably won't have the energy to contribute much to this thread tonight, but as a woman and a gamer, I can absolutely say that sexism in video games, in the gaming community, and in the gaming industry are all pretty significant problems.

Also, I just read this really excellent post on the subject yesterday, and I highly recommend it, since I see half of the arguments it lists and rebuts have already been made in this thread. (And I'm sure the other half will be made soon. Because they are fucking inevitable in every discussion like this. *sigh*)

It did piss me off that that article paints the male gaming community as fat, angry, wan-skinned man-children, enforcing some really unfair stereotypes about gamers and other such "nerds" in general, specifically male ones.

[Frisivisia]

Well, we all know how console gamers can be. This will continuously occur until games aren't targeted towards them.

They do market to the least common denominator...

[Frisivisia]

The link's broken, but given your mentioning of Soul Calibur, I'm pretty sure I know who you're talking about.

My only response is, of course, so what? Why do things need to be realistic? Videogames are fantasy. Part of fantasy is the ability to creatively design characters in whatever manner you please.

Why do you want to take that away from people?

It's not about realism. It's more about the objectification. The KKK made a video game about killing blacks and minorities. Is that not questionable? Is that not disturbing? No matter how fictional and fun it might be, there's just something wrong about it.

Omnicide is an equal opportunity warcrime.

[Frisivisia]

I get that. I'm just saying that Skyrim isn't exactly a good example of gender equality.

I will say that most feminist activist do need to look at newer games to compare and on a broader spectrum too. The video that Dakini linked showed games that are made pre-2010. It made good points, it just seems outdated to me. Considering newer games like Bioshock Infinite would make it more relevant to modern times.

Skyrim does certainly do better than most games in that front. In the main quest and all four faction quests, we see a pretty good mixture of males and females in plot crucial roles. We get good examples like Mirabelle, Aela, Dauphine, Astrid, Vex, and Karliah. In both the main questline and the four factional questlines, the character is forced to, at one point or another, rely on the help of a woman. It's not the greatest progress, but it's certainly further than most games.

There's also female Jarls and about half of randomly generated enemies (bandits, soldiers, the like) are female.

[Frisivisia]

So is this one of those threads where we once again reveal that the average NSG poster has the cultural awareness and broader social understanding of a six year old child who grew up under a fucking rock?

Yes, yes I believe it is.

Fucking pathetic.

Neo, it worries me that you're ending more and more of your posts with the phrase "Fucking pathetic." It must be summer.

[Frisivisia]

I think that's different. I think that's not what feminists want. Certainly not what I want for a plot oriented game (Skyrim is good, but it's not exactly a beacon of gender equality because of it's lack of story). Because for one, the main character, you, is devoid of any personality whatsoever.

I could only remember a few games that forces you to be on the opposite role and I'm not even sure if it's good enough. Beyond Good & Evil is one. Dreamfall. Those are obscure games at that.

I can't speak to "what feminists want," since I'm not all feminists, but I can absolutely speak to what a feminist wants.

I want games like Skyrim, in which I can choose to play as a woman and not be forced to turn my character into the magical Dragonborn Stripper in order to play the game.

I want games like Portal, in which both the voiceless protagonist and the rather talkative antagonist are female and it matters not one whit.

I want games in which I can play as a fully fleshed-out, preexisting character who happens to be female, rather than an endless string of "in this new, innovative game, you play as a muscly white dude! Because that is a thing you've only been in roughly 90% of all games ever!" Ideally, I'd also love it if I could sometimes play as non-white, gay, disabled*, overweight, etc. I want the variety of game protagonists to reflect the variety of human beings in the world. I also want those protagonists to be characters who may be impacted by their race, gender, etc. without it defining them in stupid, sexist, racist ways. (See the article linked a few pages back about Tomb Raider and the idea that players should want to "protect" Lara Croft rather than BE her. Fuck that noise.)

I want games in which I see heroes who look like me. I want games in which the people who look like me are not used as decorative objects or prizes to be won, but as characters in their own right. I want games in which not ALL the female characters are played as "sexy," and the ones who are are sexy for actual plot/character reasons rather than "look, boobies."

I want games that don't leave me feeling dirty for playing them.

I want games in which I'm a person. Simple as that, really.

*I recognize that this one, unlike the rest, can't just be slotted in to any character, but there are absolutely game concepts in which the PC could be in a wheelchair or missing a limb or something and it would in no way harm and quite possibly enhance the game.

Let's play Overweight Gay Female Amputee Terrorist Simulator 2013!

[Frisivisia]

Neo, it worries me that you're ending more and more of your posts with the phrase "Fucking pathetic." It must be summer.

It has nothing to do with the year. Read the posts. Check the posters. This isn't "summertime". This isn't a new wave that'll die off. This is the regular posters that we have all year long. This is the level of intellectual rigor, sophistication, and societal awareness that we've made baseline.

It's not summer. It's just what NSG is.

And "fucking pathetic" is the only description I can give it.

It does fester.

[Frisivisia]

-snip-

And there are plenty of games out there like that.

So...why are you complaining? Are you not satisfied with having your subjective tastes appealed to? Do you need everyone who differs from you shamed out of the market?

Why aren't there enough fat lesbian amputees in video games?