Sexism in video games.

[Warda]

That's not 100% true. The whole thing is complicated, and women pilots are combat roles.

Granted, though the Air Force are rather progressive and less strict then the other branches.[

And in the army women have non combat combat roles.

[Warda]

You're talking about Abrahamic religions. Most fantasy religions are more akin to paganism.

Pagan religions were just as sexist as Judaism and Christiandom. I don't remember women fighting in the Iliad or Odyssey, the Táin Bó Cúailnge, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazons
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians

[Warda]

Ridiculous. I don't care what color they are, I don't care what they have hanging between their legs, as long as they go up there and kill some enemy sumbitches they're good enough to me.

Well I mean there areoneor two legitimate obstacles to it but yeah I agree with you, when someone pulls you out of the way line of fire you don't care whether or not they have a penis.
Was browsing google and found this, holy shit.
Won't be till 2016 but still.
http://www.themarysue.com/women-army-ra ... s-marines/

They kinda remind me of my Grandma Some nations don't have gender restrictions in certain branches, but no female has ever completed the training, such as the Kommando Spezilkerfluffls
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kommando_Spezialkr%C3%A4fte

[Warda]

This is one of the things that I use to determine whether or not I'll actually play the game.
I make a female character and try some armor, if it looks like chainmail bikini I uninstall the game.

That implies that you've already bought the game, though.

I always run a quick google search before buying a game I suspect of such things.

You could just play games without characters On a similar note I was playing Il2 1946 and I was in a A6M8 and I was fighting a P-51D. So I gave up on trying to chase him around, so I just leveled out and let him dive on me. Once he got around to 700 meters I put my throttle to 0 with max flaps and pulled straight up and let him fly past me. I then gave max throttle and rolled into a dive in front of him and again did 0 throttle with max flaps in a turn and he tried to follow me and it ripped his wings off.

[Warda]

Ah. I don't play MMOs.

I'd like to play Planetside 2 though, my CPU can't handle it.

Go the start menu and type run and then open the program and type dxdiag. It tells you your system model (computer) so you can Google it and find out what motherboard slot you have and find a CPU that can match it if you want.

[Warda]

Well, you won't find many women capable of casting magic missile and hacking the head off of a troll with their +10 sword of slaying.

It's common knowledge that level 30 templars are much sexier than regular people. Regular people certainly CAN be sexy, but people with the capability of instantly healing wounds or summoning a lightning storm are much sexier just by default.

Eh, I prefer mundane heroes. Just people who get by through determination, skill, and wit.

That's why I'm always a Fighter when I'm not DMing.

I like games with objects in them Boats, planes, and tanks are my games

[Warda]

Speaking from an expert standpoint, are we? Haha, oh wait, except it would kill you.

That is true, but it still existed in society to my knowledge.

Has anyone played Mount and Blade War band? Def has some sexist armors going on

[Warda]

Has anyone played Mount and Blade War band? Def has some sexist armors going on

Yup.

If this isn't sexism I don't know what is.

[Warda]

Well apparently its still sexist because she gets killed.


I guess the same could be said about any set of ornate chestwear, its not designed for practicality.

Hooo lord, because people fight in ornate armour...

Did you miss the middle ages and renaissance?

[Warda]

Go the start menu and type run and then open the program and type dxdiag. It tells you your system model (computer) so you can Google it and find out what motherboard slot you have and find a CPU that can match it if you want.

It's Windows 7. So no it wouldn't work.

You can upgrade a computer with Windows 7.

[Warda]

Ironically enough modern Fencing has 'boob-plates' but I guess those are quite specific.
In any case there was numerous cases of soldiers (particularly leaders) using stylised armors that weren't particularly effective as far as protection goes, from the Romans, Greeks, to the 16th Century (And you can see this in some of the paintings of the time).

Okay, paintings are not representative. Burial armour is not representative. Joan of Arc? no boobplate!

*because she was given a males armor literally.

[Wind in the Willows]

It is to attract the attention of males.

[Wind in the Willows]

It is to attract the attention of males.

HOLY SHIT NO WAY!


You win the award for "least insightful comment."

Thank you for your sarcasm.

[Xeng He]

Most gamers don't play games or pick certain characters on their looks, their gameplay is usually more important. Besides, a game isn't that influential on people's outlook. I don't remember ever hearing anyone change their mind on something because of a game character that happens to be dressed in a revealing fashion. Hell, I'm a fucking prude by ideology and I'm not offended by this stuff. If I'm not imploding from seeing a bit of fanservice why the hell are a bunch of feminist liberals?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... ticalArmor
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... ancyOutfit
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlingOfWar
EDIT: FOUND ANOTHER ONE
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... ousUniform

That took about a minute.

...your links only prove that the tropes exist, not that they're the ones gamers tend to rank as important.

[Xeng He]

I'm not a teen, nor am I libertarian.

Explain how a game effects society in any meaningful manner.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... nalization
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... RedStapler
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... stmasTrees

This is really easy.

This is still kind of proving nothing. What about demand for skimpy female images causes that demand to bleed into all aspects of society?

Rather than what's already happened to some extent, which is...skimpy female cosplayers who enjoy their work.

[Xeng He]

Three links, showing a direct link between media and society's views.

Try reading the links, you'll learn something.

See that? That was just plain condescending and rude.

I did indeed read the defictionalization bit, but I really don't see how that's equivalent to, as you put it "forcing every woman into the trophy role". The example the page gave about the Simpson drink didn't cause everyone to start wanting that drink and becoming less able to acknowledge the merits of other drinks, among other things.

The "Red Stapler" bit basically was talking about the stuff leading up to defictionalization, so I'm simply going to have to repeat myself on that one....

And the last one, "aluminum Christmas Tree", is deserving of the same response as defictionalization, too.

So, assuming we're just talking about "Damsel In Distress" here and not, I don't know, Fanservice and/or a given negative trope attached to one particular female character as well, whatever extent to which it exists is counteracted by non-videogame media and/or real legal shifts.

[Xeng He]

Oh, no. See, I'm transgender, and that means I'm making them gay if they're attracted to me, and I'm clearly just as bad as a rapist if I don't brand a T on my forehead all the time.

If you're ever seen making out with another chick you may well be worse than Hitler.

Here I thought all those ebil misogynists liked objectifying women?

[Xeng He]

Which has nothing to do with the fact that you don't take women seriously in any shape or form.

You know. Women. The real people your preferred characters represent in the most shallow ways possible.

You know, you don't have a damn clue who his characters are or even how they look, so I find it odd you say that.

Yes, because "I have an H-cup and no bra, look at me bounce! This doesn't hurt my back at all! *tee hee* Look at my hilariously inadequate armour! Oh, my hair got messed up when I did that, how terrible!" isn't cheesy. Not at all.

"Because clearly, my physical appearance is the sole relevant aspect of my character, hee hee!"

Seriously, for someone opposed to objectification, you objectify a lot.

[Xeng He]

Possibly amusing mechanic for a game: Female characters can be put in ridiculous outfits that provide neither support nor modesty nor protection, but they'll limit their movements to compensate. Absolute cleavage without a bra? Sorry, your character's hands are now busy keep her boobs from flailing about painfully or popping out. Equip the mini-skirt item, no more high kicks or jumping around. An enemy spies you wearing Leather "Armour" of I Just Came From A Fetish Club and your character will run rather than fight.

I would totally support this if the character is also made to comment on it, so that when you equip the mini-skirt she says, "Really? I'm trying to fight zombies here, not go clubbing," and when the enemy attacks she says, "Dammit, I told you not to make me wear heels! How am I supposed to run now, dumbass?" Or, if you object to fourth-wall-breaking, "I don't know what the hell I was thinking when I put on this outfit to go slay dragons in. Apparently I'm some sort of moron! Ow, my completely unprotected spleen!"

And the people who don't wear helmets should be like, automatically headshot, amirite?

Except I guess they aren't necessarily more attractive than you.

[Xeng He]

Well, they would totally die.

Well, not necessarily. High heels are probably a killer, But the Viet Cong, at least, didn't really seem to need armor to survive*, at least some of the time. And your typical sexy female adventurer is more skilled than your typical foot soldier, and generally not facing down the same amount of sheer numbers in terms of attacks.

And let's not forget that in a fantasy world there tend to be a lot of attacks that could, realistically, bypass armor and most "practical" combat gear instantly. That stuff will not help against a fireball, unfortunately.

As for the "absolute cleavage sans bra" bit, I can't, personally, speak to the manageability of breasts, but they can't be any more distracting than bangs. And you can fight with bangs.

*To be clear, that's a Viet Cong Uniform.

[Xeng He]

Doesn't change the fact that I was talking about how he talks to women. He has the habit of talking to and about real, live women in ways that demonstrate that he does not take us seriously. The only thing that's funny about it is that he's entirely clueless about why and he's got himself a nice victim complex complete with straw-women to combat.

...I'm going to go ahead and question you about which of his posts indicate that. Because I've seen his arguments and they don't usually give that kind of vibe.

You keep using that word, but I do not think you understand what it means.

From Wikipedia

Sexual objectification is the act of treating a person merely as an instrument of sexual pleasure, making them a "sex object"

For a slightly more precise explanation of why what you're doing is objectification, well...

Feminist scholars say that the objectification of women involves the act of disregarding the personal and intellectual abilities and capabilities of a female; and reducing a woman's worth or role in society to that of an instrument for the sexual pleasure that she can produce in the mind of another

Now! Obviously you're not going ahead and pleasuring yourself to those images, but you are, rather blatantly, disregarding pretty much any aspect of a sexy female character but her sexiness, you are in your mind reducing her to an instrument of sex. And maybe she's a character, not a real woman, but...we're supposed to view characters as people, aren't we? At least to some extent?

I also don't think you know how to tell the feminists apart on this thread.

I admit I get a bit too gung-ho here at points.

[Xeng He]

What games have gender roles?

It's complicated, but the short answer is "every game that contains anthropormorphic characters engaging in a narrative".

...okay, that's a tad of an exaggeration, I have to say. Unless you think that there is not one game out there without any "sexism" (and really, I'd argue that there are very few games that are actually sexist in and of themselves, so the phrase I'd use would more be "capabilities in terms of promoting sexism"), you can't really say it's so pervasive as to be in 100% of all games, ever.

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Also, I have a few thoughts on the overall discussion you people are partaking in. They don't map to specific points here, so I'll just list them out.

1. I really have to say that the grouping of every single "issue" in gaming into one broad umbrella term is part of the problem. Sexualization in and of itself, por ejemplo, doesn't have the same societal effects of Damsel in Distress doesn't have the same societal effects as Seductressy female villains, and we should, first of all, be honest about that, and second of all acknowledge that the standard here shouldn't be "games that have none of these", but rather "Some games with none of these, some games with an amount of these but a large amount not, and maybe a couple with all."
2. I also note that there isn't as much discussion on the male end of the divide, which I think is another problem here because, frankly, part of the reason I gravitate towards sexualized women as characters as a male is because there isn't really a male equivalent out there, in the zeitgeist, and there are many aspects (not just the titties) I admire in some of them. And possibly a lot of writers and makers of other assorted media are like that. Basically, in other words, in addition to having some women that function as men we should have men that function as women.

[Xeng He]

And the White Heterosexual Male isn't just the problem with the character default: it's all the characters, whether playable or not, that actually are women. Male characters, while often portrayed as what one could consider sexy, are not defined by their fuckability. They aren't wearing assless chap armor, you see? They don't have fucking absurdly huge dicks bulging in their pants. Their proportions are not nigh humanly impossible

See, as I said to Dakini before you, I really don't define female characters, even sexualized ones, by their fuckability. It's not required, and sometimes (in the case of stories where the highly fuckable woman also has a really fleshed out character) not even encouraged. So...

[Xeng He]

...why do I get a weird feeling that people think I'm an Alaje puppet?


*really isn't--though of course, I'm probably just making ridiculous connections anyhow*

[Xeng He]

Oh right, and all the stripper-tastic writhing courtesy of Bayonetta is interpretative dance. And DOA Beach Ball was a retelling of Lord of the Flies.

No, they weren't.

And that one time a guy checked out his girlfriend while she was wearing a sexy outfit, that wasn't anything deeper than ogling either. Yet the overall relationship was far greater than that one thing, and you could genuinely say he cared for her, in spite of that.

So your comparisons are kind of pointless.

Tell me, where are the over-sexualized males featuring in these games aimed at young adult women, the equivalent of those games?

They're not around (as often). And that's a bad thing. And in fact I said it was a bad thing.

2. I also note that there isn't as much discussion on the male end of the divide, which I think is another problem here because, frankly, part of the reason I gravitate towards sexualized women as characters as a male is because there isn't really a male equivalent out there, in the zeitgeist, and there are many aspects (not just the titties) I admire in some of them. And possibly a lot of writers and makers of other assorted media are like that. Basically, in other words, in addition to having some women that function as men we should have men that function as women.

So y'know, I really don't feel all that bad about that.