Sexism in video games.

[Orham]

How about games like Mortal Kombat or Twisted Metal? Cops don't come to stop you in those (well accept for Twisted Metal 1).

The characters can die in MK (quite brutally, at that) and Twisted Metal. There are still negative consequences for all the violence to be noted.

That would be hilarious to me actually. But I'm not sure alot of the fan base would like it, I think I'd ruin their fantasies.

I expect you're right, breaking that fantasy would be damaging for the marketability of games like Soul Calibur to the target demographic. That's why this probably wouldn't happen, though it does provide a nice example of an in-game equivalent to the subtext of GTA, MK, and Twisted Metal. And even if such lines were to appear in an SC game, I'd want the developers to make that happen on their own initiative in response to popular demand. I wouldn't want to force them to.

[Oil exporting People]

So 45% is a "tiny percentage" now?
And yes, your personal anecdotes are statistically relevant and don't at all sound like "I have black friends so I can't be racist"...
Oh, & you made the ad hominem by saying they lack lives as well... How novel.

Link please. And still, 45% is not a majority.

That's what I don't get about Feminists. You claim you fight for equality, then demand special concessions for your views exclusively. Plus, why care about such a trivial thing as video games? Why not focus on rape in the Third World?

Plus, if we really want to talk about modern sexism, let's also address the ridiculous notion that "All Men are rapists" that springs forth from many in the Feminist community.

[Orham]

Ah, but if you die, you'll just respawn in front of the nearest hospital missing $500 and your weapons, so it's not really that big of a deal.

True, death isn't a permanent consequence in games. But that's just for the sake of playability. The idea that crime is dangerous and illegal is still conveyed, although it's absolutely a subtext rather than one of the main points.

Plus, why care about such a trivial thing as video games?

The relative importance is inconsequential. Sexism in video games is far from the most important thing in the world, but it's the topic of discussion here. It's also something many consider worthy of discussion, as is evidenced by the thread length.

[Olthar]

Ah, but if you die, you'll just respawn in front of the nearest hospital missing $500 and your weapons, so it's not really that big of a deal.

True, death isn't a permanent consequence in games. But that's just for the sake of playability. The idea that crime is dangerous and illegal is still conveyed, although it's absolutely a subtext rather than one of the main points.

I remember the good ol' days were dying meant you had to restart the entire game back when death actually meant something.

[Nailed to the Perch]

So 45% is a "tiny percentage" now?
And yes, your personal anecdotes are statistically relevant and don't at all sound like "I have black friends so I can't be racist"...
Oh, & you made the ad hominem by saying they lack lives as well... How novel.

Link please. And still, 45% is not a majority.

http://www.theesa.com/facts/gameplayer.asp

That's what I don't get about Feminists. You claim you fight for equality, then demand special concessions for your views exclusively.

*snort*

Plus, why care about such a trivial thing as video games? Why not focus on rape in the Third World?

Amazingly, most people are actually able to oppose multiple things at the same time. Look - I think racism is bad, and I also think sexism is bad! And I think headaches are bad! And cockroach infestations! And serial killers! Man, I must be some sort of superhuman, thinking all these things are bad at the same time!

Plus, if we really want to talk about modern sexism, let's also address the ridiculous notion that "All Men are rapists" that springs forth from many in the Feminist community.

Sure. Let me just find a feminist who has ever actually said that, and I'll happily oppose it. In the meantime, I'm probably going to stick to concerning myself primarily with actual things, rather than comically over-the-top strawmen.

[Gauntleted Fist]

True, death isn't a permanent consequence in games. But that's just for the sake of playability. The idea that crime is dangerous and illegal is still conveyed, although it's absolutely a subtext rather than one of the main points.

I remember the good ol' days were dying meant you had to restart the entire game back when death actually meant something.

Try dying in Everquest and losing your corpse.

Talk about easy nuclear anger material.

oh, oh! The best was talking in server chats with stuff like:

"I don't know how you guys made it to max level, I keep dying around level 18 and having to start over."

[Agymnum]

I remember the good ol' days were dying meant you had to restart the entire game back when death actually meant something.

Try dying in Everquest and losing your corpse.

Talk about easy nuclear anger material.

I remember when cities were easy to take in Civilization, and people used to stack 8+ units on their most important ones out of paranoia that someone would try to steamroll their empire.

Those were the days... *sighs wistfully*

[Orham]

I remember the good ol' days were dying meant you had to restart the entire game back when death actually meant something.

Try dying in Everquest and losing your corpse.

Talk about easy nuclear anger material.

What do you MEAN my potions, weapons, and armor are GONE FOREVER?

[Ikigain]

If admiring the female body for sexual purposes is sexist, human biology is sexist because being sexually attracted to women is basic human nature.

[Olthar]

If admiring the female body for sexual purposes is sexist, human nature is sexist because being sexually attracted to women is basic human nature.

That's not what we're talking about.

[The Grey Wolf]

If admiring the female body for sexual purposes is sexist, human nature is sexist because being sexually attracted to women is basic human nature.

Plus if we didn't, our species would've gone exctinct.

[Confido]

Most games, to steal a line from Nerd³ on Youtube, have Women as Women First, Then a Person, their main factor is that their Female. To also steal another thing from him, They're just Boobs of a Stick. Names some female characters that YOU PLAY AS that aren't just boobs on a stick, and actually have a Developed Character, and actually are People first then a Women. I can only think of 1, Faith from Mirrors Edge

[Agymnum]

If admiring the female body for sexual purposes is sexist, human biology is sexist because being sexually attracted to women is basic human nature.

Sticking gratuitous tits and ass into a game or any sort of media just to get buyers (and with no valid reason or back-story for said gratuitous tits and ass exposure) is pretty sexist to me.

[Orham]

Most games, to steal a line from Nerd³ on Youtube, have Women as Women First, Then a Person, their main factor is that their Female. To also steal another thing from him, They're just Boobs of a Stick. Names some female characters that YOU PLAY AS that aren't just boobs on a stick, and actually have a Developed Character, and actually are People first then a Women. I can only think of 1, Faith from Mirrors Edge

Cecilia Adlehyde, Wild Arms. Even still, the point remains that objectification is something which does exist in video games.

[Orcoa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJihi5rB_Ek

I like this video since its not a anti-Anita video but a reasonable and thought out Response to Anita's videos

And its done by a very smart young woman

[Oil exporting People]

*snort*


Sure. Let me just find a feminist who has ever actually said that, and I'll happily oppose it. In the meantime, I'm probably going to stick to concerning myself primarily with actual things, rather than comically over-the-top strawmen.

I think it's very telling you didn't try to address that point.

Funny, I don't recall saying any particular feminist said that. I do recall saying that there is a notion, however. Nice attempt at putting words in my mouth, but you failed.

[Ashlak]

I do think that there is a degree of sexism in video games and entertainment in general, because entertainment is influenced by society, and society states that there are certain ways men and women have to be and act, thus this inevitably finds its way into entertainment. I think it's getting better as time goes on, though.

[Ikigain]

If admiring the female body for sexual purposes is sexist, human biology is sexist because being sexually attracted to women is basic human nature.

Sticking gratuitous tits and ass into a game or any sort of media just to get buyers (and with no valid reason or back-story for said gratuitous tits and ass exposure) is pretty sexist to me.

How is it sexist?

[Dalmacie]

Sticking gratuitous tits and ass into a game or any sort of media just to get buyers (and with no valid reason or back-story for said gratuitous tits and ass exposure) is pretty sexist to me.

How is it sexist?

Male characters are not treated the same.

Male character rarely wear revealing clothing.

They are not sexualized.

They are characters to be played, not characters to be gawked at.

[Ikigain]

How is it sexist?

Male characters are not treated the same.

Male character rarely wear revealing clothing.

They are not sexualized.

They are characters to be played, not characters to be gawked at.

You can categorize kratos from god of war being objectified for being shown in little clothes while having giant muscles and commander shepherd for wearing a military uniform. And even when these things are pointed out, most anti-sexists say "Well, these are marketed to men, not women. So these can't be sexist for objectifying men." Even than, as a male, I don't give a fuck if I'm being objectified or sexualized. I don't feel like I'm being objectified when I'm playing a male architype. Y'know why? Because that's the actual ideal male. Just like housewife characters(none exist, BTW) are the ideal female architype.

If you play a video game with no story and the male is just a masculine macho man, I don't give a fuck. I'd play it. I already play video games like that. You don't see me throwing a bitch fit and starting a social movement. And just because you play a video game with female characters that are sexually appealing and have no personality, it doens't mean you view real women like that. That's like saying you'll believe all men are dreamy millionaires because you watched the young and the restless.

Oh wait, no one gawks at this. No one stares at these for fun. they have actual porn to do that with.

[Umbra Ac Silentium]

Male characters are not treated the same.

Male character rarely wear revealing clothing.

They are not sexualized.

They are characters to be played, not characters to be gawked at.

Just like housewife characters(none exist, BTW) are the ideal female architype.

Hahahaha holy shit did you post that seriously?

[Orcoa]

Just like housewife characters(none exist, BTW) are the ideal female architype.

Hahahaha holy shit did you post that seriously?

Wow...I....I taste blood in my mouth.

That post almost killed me.....jesus..

[Dalmacie]

1-You can categorize kratos from god of war being objectified for being shown in little clothes while having giant muscles and commander shepherd for wearing a military uniform.
2-And even when these things are pointed out, most anti-sexists say "Well, these are marketed to men, not women. So these can't be sexist for objectifying men."
3-Even than, as a male, I don't give a fuck if I'm being objectified or sexualized. I don't feel like I'm being objectified when I'm playing a male architype. Y'know why? Because that's the actual ideal male. Just like housewife characters(none exist, BTW) are the ideal female architype.

4-If you play a video game with no story and the male is just a masculine macho man, I don't give a fuck. I'd play it. I already play video games like that. You don't see me throwing a bitch fit and starting a social movement.
5-And just because you play a video game with female characters that are sexually appealing and have no personality, it doens't mean you view real women like that. That's like saying you'll believe all men are dreamy millionaires because you watched the young and the restless.

6-Oh wait, no one gawks at this. No one stares at these for fun. they have actual porn to do that with.

1- Oh I could.

Except that their appearance is relevant to the game. Kratos is buff because of his role of soldier/turned war god/turned god slayer. Shepherd was in the military.

Many female characters' appearance has nothing to do with the plot. Their attractiveness is in no way related to the storyline.

2- Read previous point.

Men can be objectified and sexualized too. They aren't in the examples you provided, nor in any that I know of, mainly because male gamers are not attracted to male sexualization.

3-Well that's fantastic for you.

Relevance to the point that female characters are generously endowed without that having anything to do with gameplay is...

4- Fantastic for you.

Your personal opinion's relevance to this being?

5- Who claimed otherwise?

6- I'm sure not many masturbate over game characters, however, these characters' appearance is designed to be gawked at.

And people do. Especially teenage and young men, who are the biggest audience these games are targeted to.

[Forsher]

Here's what I personally found most grating: he claims there's no sexism in women being saved. I'll certainly agree, the mere fact that a woman got saved isn't sexist. Yet, despite his claims that there is no sexism, all of his heroes, all of his saviors, all of his shining white knights are men.

It's that kind of ridiculous logic that pisses me off the most. If he really wanted to address how the system is not sexist, maybe he should have provided a single example of a time where a woman got to save a man. Instead, he just takes the option of "Be grateful he saved you at all."

I agree, it's about how the women is being saved. If, say, all the women in the game are just there to be saved -- sexist. If, say, all the "damsels in distress" are, in fact, damsels -- sexist. If the game presents the situation in such a way as to suggest that women need to be rescued then the game (or any other media form) is sexist, or reinforces a sexist idea at any rate.

Soul Calibur has already been mentioned in this thread, so let's stick with it as an especially obvious example.

This is an actual character in the game: http://i71.beon.ru/41/46/834641/94/8823 ... pt_01.jpeg

The link's broken, but given your mentioning of Soul Calibur, I'm pretty sure I know who you're talking about.

My only response is, of course, so what? Why do things need to be realistic? Videogames are fantasy. Part of fantasy is the ability to creatively design characters in whatever manner you please.

Why do you want to take that away from people?

Things don't need to be realistic. For example, I'm pretty sure a dude turning into a great big green thing and then getting killed by some tragic hero and some deal with cursed gold or some crap like that, isn't particularly realistic at all. That's cool.

The problem is that all media, whatever it is, gives off ideas. It reinforces cultural views, generates messages and stuff like that. Basically, the sort of things that gets talked about in secondary school English (for example, Simon as a Christ figure in Lord of the Flies -- although, personally, I think Simon is over-rated as a character, Roger was always more significant in my essays) and, presumably, media studies. In fact, it's kind of the whole point of much of what I've done in drama (very academic subject, sadly tied to the performance which, I've always thought, was my issue last year). But that's side-tracking me, the issue is what the media gives off.

At the start of this post I was talking about women being rescued, right? That's fine until the message becomes something like "women have to be rescued" as opposed to "this character, who is a woman, needed to be rescued". But let's bring it to this case. The second link shows the major problem with the character which is demonstrated by NTTP characterising Ivy's design process as "lol boobies". That's the issue there, the character comes across as existing solely to serve as "eye candy".

Or, at least, that's my take.

[Forsher]

With that, I'm announcing my candidacy for 2016.

Oh my god. It's starting.

(I'll vote for you, see also: lack of will.)

Major policy: improving gamer support.

So is this one of those threads where we once again reveal that the average NSG poster has the cultural awareness and broader social understanding of a six year old child who grew up under a fucking rock?

Yes, yes I believe it is.

Fucking pathetic.

Considering that it looks like most people agree with NTTP...

I don't. You can design characters in whatever manner you please. And if you design a character who is supposed to be a serious scholar avenging her father's death and then decide that the best way to express "serious scholar avenging her father's death" is "I know! Spandex boob strap, thong, and fuck-me heels!" the rest of the world can say, "Wow, you are super duper shitty at this" and choose not to buy your game.

There's a difference between choosing not to by a game, and then going out and shaming a trend and those who enjoy it, because you personally don't like it. Trying to somehow finagle it as a female rights issue, and crying about objectification, only makes your behavior scummier.

It all comes back to the three key elements of English, as a secondary school subject. (If you don't know what a secondary school is, I don't think the term is widely used in the States, it's basically what high school/college is.)

There's reading on the lines.
There's reading between the lines. (Some might call this subtext.)
There's reading beyond the lines.

That applies for anything. And the point is that it's not actually that hard to see the three different elements of what there is. Whatever the likes of Neo Art may think, teenagers are capable of thinking like this and, frankly, they're expected to do it at school.

But, this is relevant here because what the last two parts say influences society. It influences cultural ideas. For example, this thread's view of teenage boys is basically "lol, obsessed with titties" and that's as a result of what's going on here. (In case you're unclear, teenagers of both sexes are more complex than this and are capable of being drawn to material because it has seven different shades of blood as well.) I read a fair few Marvel Comics and I used to wonder why the figures that you see in them aren't like what you see in reality, that's the other issue here. (Compare the Black Widow of the comics to the film's version to really see this.) Media influences and mirrors society, it helps perpetuate negative perceptions of the world around us.

If all media came with different kinds of Rapunzels then people are going to be getting quite a few bad ideas about the relationship between women and men. It's also kind of getting a bit of "active" (X happens to events) versus "passive" (events happen to X) views, you know? It's just a matter of sitting down and thinking about it. (I'd also avoid paying too much attention in this thread to a certain manner of posting typified by quite well known Generalites because, I reackon, that how they go about entering such discussions gets a lot of applause from those who agree with them but does very little towards creating more people who agree with them.)

Because what people enjoy about fighting games like the Soul series is impossibly large-breasted women in impossibly small and poorly conceived outfits. Not the fighting, no, certainly not.

Your point? I fail to see how this is in any way relevant to anything I said.

It comes back to the beyond the lines type stuff. Thought process...

Female character is mostly boobs.
Why is female character mostly boobs?
What does the answer to the previous question say about society?
What does this, as a whole, mean for society?

Let's work with the answer to the first question being "to appeal to young males".

I can imagine what the whole thing put together would look like. I believe the character in question is called Ivy.

Ivy's design model can be described as "mostly boobs" as an attempt to make the game (Soul Chorus or something?) more attractive to the young male demographic. This tells us that society thinks women can only appeal to men through their bodies, which is an unhealthy idea to foster. After all, men are capable of liking female characters for other reasons and being drawn to a game for reasons other than sex appeal. Of course, the message that the game sends about women through Ivy is also negative -- women are more than just things to be ogled.

Something like that. Or, because there are people who are better at this than me, something better than that along those lines.

I think that's different. I think that's not what feminists want. Certainly not what I want for a plot oriented game (Skyrim is good, but it's not exactly a beacon of gender equality because of it's lack of story). Because for one, the main character, you, is devoid of any personality whatsoever.

I could only remember a few games that forces you to be on the opposite role and I'm not even sure if it's good enough. Beyond Good & Evil is one. Dreamfall. Those are obscure games at that.

I can't speak to "what feminists want," since I'm not all feminists, but I can absolutely speak to what a feminist wants.

I want games like Skyrim, in which I can choose to play as a woman and not be forced to turn my character into the magical Dragonborn Stripper in order to play the game.

I want games like Portal, in which both the voiceless protagonist and the rather talkative antagonist are female and it matters not one whit.

I want games in which I can play as a fully fleshed-out, preexisting character who happens to be female, rather than an endless string of "in this new, innovative game, you play as a muscly white dude! Because that is a thing you've only been in roughly 90% of all games ever!" Ideally, I'd also love it if I could sometimes play as non-white, gay, disabled*, overweight, etc. I want the variety of game protagonists to reflect the variety of human beings in the world. I also want those protagonists to be characters who may be impacted by their race, gender, etc. without it defining them in stupid, sexist, racist ways. (See the article linked a few pages back about Tomb Raider and the idea that players should want to "protect" Lara Croft rather than BE her. Fuck that noise.)

I want games in which I see heroes who look like me. I want games in which the people who look like me are not used as decorative objects or prizes to be won, but as characters in their own right. I want games in which not ALL the female characters are played as "sexy," and the ones who are are sexy for actual plot/character reasons rather than "look, boobies."

I want games that don't leave me feeling dirty for playing them.

I want games in which I'm a person. Simple as that, really.

*I recognize that this one, unlike the rest, can't just be slotted in to any character, but there are absolutely game concepts in which the PC could be in a wheelchair or missing a limb or something and it would in no way harm and quite possibly enhance the game.

I see in this post, some of the things I was trying to get at in my response to the previous part of my post.

Along those lines... I want to watch a film where they do not take the character's glasses off to make them attractive.

This post is long enough, to the next page of the rather massive backlog!