Sexism in video games.

[Olthar]

Ironically, the Imperial scholars actually got it right for all the wrong reasons. Gods in The Elder Scrolls universe are quite peculiar. Just look at Lorkhan. Shezzar is Lorkhan. Shor is Lorkhan. The Underking is Lorkhan. Talos is Lorkhan. Masser and Sedunda are the split halves of Lorkhan's body. And, during all this, Lorkhan is also dead and missing his heart. The cosmology of TES is complex and confusing.

The fuck kind of drugs were the writers on?

Pot. No seriously. Morrowind was almost entirely written while high.

[Verbal Pararhea]

The fuck kind of drugs were the writers on?

Skooma and some tainted Cyrodilic Brandy.

[Vareiln]

Ironically, the Imperial scholars actually got it right for all the wrong reasons. Gods in The Elder Scrolls universe are quite peculiar. Just look at Lorkhan. Shezzar is Lorkhan. Shor is Lorkhan. The Underking is Lorkhan. Talos is Lorkhan. Masser and Sedunda are the split halves of Lorkhan's body. And, during all this, Lorkhan is also dead and missing his heart. The cosmology of TES is complex and confusing.

The fuck kind of drugs were the writers on?

Pseudo-Hinduism. That stuff is like crack. I'm pretty sure Michael Kirkbride's the dealer.

[Frisivisia]

Still a god of destruction iirc. And I thought you don't permanently kill him? Wouldn't that disrupt fate or something?

Actually, that should be the next game. Fate is messed up, so you have to go fix it.

Personally, I think the next game will be the Thalmor trying to undo creation by destroying Adamantine Tower. It's obvious from the meta plot clues that have been hinted at since Daggerfall.

Plus, Summerset Isles is an interesting, unexplored, and largely unexplained place. With newer generation graphics, it should be a hell of a game.

[New Octopucta]

One can still choose not to support game companies they think are doing a poor job of fulfilling their needs.

You can send them an email about what you feel is wrong with how they make games too. It just won't change anything.

[Olthar]

Personally, I think the next game will be the Thalmor trying to undo creation by destroying Adamantine Tower. It's obvious from the meta plot clues that have been hinted at since Daggerfall.

Plus, Summerset Isles is an interesting, unexplored, and largely unexplained place. With newer generation graphics, it should be a hell of a game.

Adamantine Tower is in High Rock, actually.

[Orham]

Only if that person is incapable of understanding that a fictional reality, with less than three dimensional characters, is not an accurate representation of reality, nor is it meant to be.

So no one ever stops and seriously thinks to themselves "What does this say about me" or "What does this say about my relationship with other people" or "What does this fictional work say about society in general"? Fiction is completely divorced from reality in peoples' minds, and it can't impact their perceptions as long as they remain keenly aware that the work is fictional? Patently untrue.

I'm not disputing peoples' ability to separate fact from fiction in their minds, I'm simply saying that fiction can impact personal perceptions and ideas in a substantive way. I had no idea this was such a controversial claim, that fiction writers can have a substantive social impact, and even introduce new ideas with their works.

In other words, "people will do bad things if they see this media". This is the same old dance and song that people have been spewing for years about all sorts of media, from games, to music, to movies. It's utter horseshit each and every time.

No, I said that people could internalize values that they pull from fictional works. Which they can. I never said there was a cause-effect relationship between fictional works and behavior.

Actually, I don't truly hold it to be objectification in any meaningful sense. I don't believe it's objectification, because the "objectified" party in question isn't real. They aren't even a person.

That the representations aren't of real people and are not real themselves does not mean they cannot have a social impact, which is all that I'm saying there. Fictional works can be used to explore real world values, and people can take what those works say seriously. Why is so difficult for you to believe?

Also, I am not advocating censorship. Read this, seriously. It provides a lot of context that you're clearly missing.

Honestly, people still ought to be free to produce and consume sexist and objectifying materials. The claim that I (and others) feel otherwise has been made, so I'm here to stamp that out. But here's the catch: I would at least like people to acknowledge the objectifying elements of the materials they consume and produce as such, even if they ultimately opt to continue producing and consuming the products without modifying or removing these elements. That's not "shaming", that's asking people to be truthful about their decisions as producers and consumers.

I continue to consume the Soul games, but simultaneously I readily and openly acknowledge that their costume designs and character designs are objectifying. I am constructively critical of the products I consume, and I acknowledge the objectifying elements for what they are. And these sorts of criticisms have been heard and acknowledged to some degree by the producers of the Soul games, in that players are now able to cover up characters like Sophitia, Ivy, and Taki in clothing that is less objectifying. Were they to allow players to adjust the main characters' proportions (not merely their clothing and hairstyle/hair color) it would be another monumental improvement, but progress has been made and that is worth acknowledging. And it really is progress across the board, because those who purchase the Soul titles for the objectifying elements aren't harmed a whit for the change.

---

The argument has also been made that developers' creative freedom hinges upon their ability to place their characters in whatever sort of costumes they like. OK, I can agree with that. But at the same time, it is entirely within the realm of my freedom of speech to respond to a costuming choice which makes absolutely no sense in the context of either the character or the work as a whole by saying "That's a terrible costuming choice, it makes absolutely no sense in context." And yes, that line of criticism is absolutely valid even if the costuming choice was made to draw a targeted demographic to the work. If developers insist on making costume choices which contribute nothing substantive to the work for the sake of raising sales, more power to them. These sorts of costuming choices still add nothing to the work and are thus valid material for criticism.

I mean, what if the first ten minutes of dialogue in The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion had been about the history of baloney sandwiches? Sure, the writers were perfectly free to make the choice to do that, but they couldn't then turn around and complain that people thought it was a stupid decision to have the first ten minutes of a medieval fantasy story which has nothing to do with food centered upon discussing the history of sandwich meat. Even assuming that part of the game was specifically targeted at people who are strangely obsessed with the history of cold cuts and did raise sales in that demographic, it would still take away from the quality of the work.

How? How is the lack of three dimensional characters evidence of sexism and objectification? Why does there need to be a token "this is how real women are" character, for it to not be sexist? No one has yet to explain this line of thinking, they merely keep asserting it.

I already went into that with the costuming of fighting game characters. A character can have a very detailed and substantive narrative, but if their costuming and design are not aligned with their narrative one is left to ask why that is. And in the case of many fighting game characters, the answer is very straightforward: the choice was made to increase the game's marketability by taking advantage of the influence character sex appeal can have on sales. The decision has nothing to do with characterization. What, if not objectification, is at play there?

"Reinforce" and "create" are two different things. If your complaint is that assholes who have incorrect, harmful views of reality, might use fantasy as justification to continue to hold these views, speaks nothing about the games, and speaks solely about the intellectual credulity of the person who's saying such nonsense to begin with.

This again all seems to be to be perfectly fine justification...for attacking perceived cultural norms. Not video games. Games, like all media, are at best made in response to culture. They are not at fault for a given culture's existence.

The viewer of a work has a lens through which they view it. A person's lens is shaped by everything that person has internalized, every idea taken in from their experiences, to include the viewing of works. Works themselves can impact peoples' lenses because they communicate ideas that people can and do apply to their lives, even if the work is understood to be representing fictional characters in a fictional setting. That means that the content of works and the social impact this content has are both noteworthy topics of discussion and analysis.

Again, only if (1) those ideals were preexistent to begin with, and (2) the person in questions cannot, or refuses to out of willful ignorance, differentiate between reality and fiction.

Which is, by and large, not how humanity operates.

1. Fiction can introduce new ideas.
2. People can and do notice, analyze, and apply ideas in fiction which are relevant to their lives. Otherwise we wouldn't be talking about this. People have clearly noticed internalization of ideas which are expressed and reinforced in video games that they take issue with.

EDIT: Clarity for item 2 of the last part.

[New Octopucta]

Pseudo-Hinduism. That stuff is like crack. I'm pretty sure Michael Kirkbride's the dealer.

Kirkbride is one of those people who straddle the line between genius and nutter.

[Frisivisia]

Plus, Summerset Isles is an interesting, unexplored, and largely unexplained place. With newer generation graphics, it should be a hell of a game.

Adamantine Tower is in High Rock, actually.

Shit, fuck, it's been a while for me and the Elder Scrolls. I knew that, but I got thrown off. Fuck.

[Shaggai]

Still a god of destruction iirc. And I thought you don't permanently kill him? Wouldn't that disrupt fate or something?

Actually, that should be the next game. Fate is messed up, so you have to go fix it.

Personally, I think the next game will be the Thalmor trying to undo creation by destroying Adamantine Tower. It's obvious from the meta plot clues that have been hinted at since Daggerfall.

That was part of my plot idea. It was awesomely complex. It involved time waves, dragon invasions, the attempted destruction of reality, and possibly killing Fate.

[New Octopucta]

Adamantine Tower is in High Rock, actually.

The Isles' tower was destroyed by Daeadra if memory serves.

[Oil exporting People]

Anyone else noticing the ad here that says "male gamers only"? With a picture of a sexually objectified woman of course.

Anyway, me, I'm not much of a gamer. Doesn't interest me. But you'd have to be blind not to notice that video games tend toward the sexist side. I've also frequently heard tell that gamer culture is highly misogynistic, from more than a couple of women gamers.

So. Would anyone like to share their opinions or thoughts on this?

Here's a simple answer to this problem: Don't play video games then.

Something that's always annoyed me about people who espouse these sorts of opinions is their utter disregard for opposing viewpoints. It is completely hypocritical to demand "equality", while demanding at the same time someone change their opinion to match their own. It runs contrary to freedom of speech and basic democratic principles. If Female gamers are so offended, they should form their own communities in the gaming world and leave the rest alone. How is it right for a tiny percentage in a group to get special treatment at the expense of the vast majority? It's not, and it is essentially a tyranny of the minority in this case.

Finally, I happen to know several Female gamers myself. From conversations I've had with them, they could honestly careless what gets said. In fact, I've often had them to be just as "misogynistic" as the guys. I really only think the women complaining about this issue are those who just lack a personal life, and decide to invest their time by being totalitarian on completely mundane matters.

[Olthar]

Pseudo-Hinduism. That stuff is like crack. I'm pretty sure Michael Kirkbride's the dealer.

Kirkbride is one of those people who straddle the line between genius and nutter.

Genius and madness are two sides of the same coin, and all the greatest artists in history had plenty of both. Kubrik was utterly psychotic and nearly killed his actors.

Adamantine Tower is in High Rock, actually.

Shit, fuck, it's been a while for me and the Elder Scrolls. I knew that, but I got thrown off. Fuck.

Honestly, I wish we'd go to the Summerset Isles. I've always wanted to see them. It makes me rather sad that we probably won't.

[Choronzon]

Anyone else noticing the ad here that says "male gamers only"? With a picture of a sexually objectified woman of course.

Anyway, me, I'm not much of a gamer. Doesn't interest me. But you'd have to be blind not to notice that video games tend toward the sexist side. I've also frequently heard tell that gamer culture is highly misogynistic, from more than a couple of women gamers.

So. Would anyone like to share their opinions or thoughts on this?

Here's a simple answer to this problem: Don't play video games then.

Something that's always annoyed me about people who espouse these sorts of opinions is their utter disregard for opposing viewpoints. It is completely hypocritical to demand "equality", while demanding at the same time someone change their opinion to match their own. It runs contrary to freedom of speech and basic democratic principles. If Female gamers are so offended, they should form their own communities in the gaming world and leave the rest alone. How is it right for a tiny percentage in a group to get special treatment at the expense of the vast majority? It's not, and it is essentially a tyranny of the minority in this case.

Finally, I happen to know several Female gamers myself. From conversations I've had with them, they could honestly careless what gets said. In fact, I've often had them to be just as "misogynistic" as the guys. I really only think the women complaining about this issue are those who just lack a personal life, and decide to invest their time by being totalitarian on completely mundane matters.

You should read the thread, every single idiotic thing you say here has more or less already been addressed.

[Olthar]

Adamantine Tower is in High Rock, actually.

The Isles' tower was destroyed by Daeadra if memory serves.

Yes as part of the Mythic Dawn's plans for undoing creation.

[Frisivisia]

Kirkbride is one of those people who straddle the line between genius and nutter.

Genius and madness are two sides of the same coin, and all the greatest artists in history had plenty of both. Kubrik was utterly psychotic and nearly killed his actors.

Shit, fuck, it's been a while for me and the Elder Scrolls. I knew that, but I got thrown off. Fuck.

Honestly, I wish we'd go to the Summerset Isles. I've always wanted to see them. It makes me rather sad that we probably won't.

Yeah, although a non-procedurally-generated High Rock would be cool too. I'd be interested in a traditional-ish fantasy setting.

[Zweite Alaje]

People seriously think to much into games, play the fucking games and have fun. Sheesh. All this, "OH MAH GERD TEH PAYRIARKY!1!!11" is quite annoying.

[Olthar]

Genius and madness are two sides of the same coin, and all the greatest artists in history had plenty of both. Kubrik was utterly psychotic and nearly killed his actors.


Honestly, I wish we'd go to the Summerset Isles. I've always wanted to see them. It makes me rather sad that we probably won't.

Yeah, although a non-procedurally-generated High Rock would be cool too. I'd be interested in a traditional-ish fantasy setting.

Part of the charm of TES is its bizarre, alien elements. That's why I'm still so nostalgic for Morrowind even though the gameplay is utter ass in retrospect.

[Choronzon]

People seriously think to much into games, play the fucking games and have fun. Sheesh. All this, "OH MAH GERD TEH PAYRIARKY!1!!11" is quite annoying.

Almost as a annoying as all the "JUST SHUT UP AND DEAL WITH IT YOU UPPITY BITCHES!"

[Frisivisia]

Yeah, although a non-procedurally-generated High Rock would be cool too. I'd be interested in a traditional-ish fantasy setting.

Part of the charm of TES is its bizarre, alien elements. That's why I'm still so nostalgic for Morrowind even though the gameplay is utter ass in retrospect.

The melee combat is a chore and magic is unwieldy, but Morrowind has a lot of story and atmosphere to it.

[Susurruses]

Anyone else noticing the ad here that says "male gamers only"? With a picture of a sexually objectified woman of course.

Anyway, me, I'm not much of a gamer. Doesn't interest me. But you'd have to be blind not to notice that video games tend toward the sexist side. I've also frequently heard tell that gamer culture is highly misogynistic, from more than a couple of women gamers.

So. Would anyone like to share their opinions or thoughts on this?

Here's a simple answer to this problem: Don't play video games then.

Something that's always annoyed me about people who espouse these sorts of opinions is their utter disregard for opposing viewpoints. It is completely hypocritical to demand "equality", while demanding at the same time someone change their opinion to match their own. It runs contrary to freedom of speech and basic democratic principles. If Female gamers are so offended, they should form their own communities in the gaming world and leave the rest alone. How is it right for a tiny percentage in a group to get special treatment at the expense of the vast majority? It's not, and it is essentially a tyranny of the minority in this case.

Finally, I happen to know several Female gamers myself. From conversations I've had with them, they could honestly careless what gets said. In fact, I've often had them to be just as "misogynistic" as the guys. I really only think the women complaining about this issue are those who just lack a personal life, and decide to invest their time by being totalitarian on completely mundane matters.

So 45% is a "tiny percentage" now?
And yes, your personal anecdotes are statistically relevant and don't at all sound like "I have black friends so I can't be racist"...
Oh, & you made the ad hominem by saying they lack lives as well... How novel.

[New Octopucta]

People seriously think to much into games, play the fucking games and have fun. Sheesh. All this, "OH MAH GERD TEH PAYRIARKY!1!!11" is quite annoying.

Yay. Let's just dismiss all of the issues that don't interest us. That'll solve everything.

[Dakini]

People seriously think to much into games, play the fucking games and have fun. Sheesh. All this, "OH MAH GERD TEH PAYRIARKY!1!!11" is quite annoying.

Yeah, fuck everyone who doesn't set their brain on autopilot constantly.

[Olthar]

Part of the charm of TES is its bizarre, alien elements. That's why I'm still so nostalgic for Morrowind even though the gameplay is utter ass in retrospect.

The melee combat is a chore and magic is unwieldy, but Morrowind has a lot of story and atmosphere to it.

Agreed.

[New Octopucta]

Part of the charm of TES is its bizarre, alien elements. That's why I'm still so nostalgic for Morrowind even though the gameplay is utter ass in retrospect.

Morrowind was my first TES game, and I poured so much of my life into it. Compared to Skyrim and Oblivion, Morrowind's world was mind-numbingly complex.