Sexism in video games.

[Asuiop]

And she could do this how, exactly? You're on opposite sides of the room, and at that point in time, you are hellbent on killing her.

Yes, just running away gleefully with her is a totally valid option.

Then run away without putting me in mortal danger. Am I the only one in possession of an imagination here?

Running away would have put you in mortal danger since Mercer would have stabbed you in the back anyway.

You're forgetting the whole plot about a thieves luck, and the skeleton key.

No I'm not. I'm the Dragonborn. I'm the reincarnation of Talos. I'm above such petty nonsense. Nocturnal holds no power over me.

And she would know this how? Barely anyone knows you're Dragonborn throughout the entire game.

Also, she doesn't know you're the Dragonborn. She worked with what she had. Can you really fault her for that?

Yes because if I wasn't the Dragonborn, Mercer would have killed me. Your average thief cannot survive a sword to the face.

1. Yes they can actually(Skyrim logic)
2. Actually Mercer would have picked anyone for the job, you just happened to come along,

If you recall, the poison slowed your blood, and prevented you from bleeding out. She was directly responsible for preserving your life, as well as hers by the way.

If you recall, I'm not a powerless weakling who's incapable of self defense. If Mercer tried face stabbing me while I was capable of mobility, he would have failed, and I wouldn't have to worry about blood loss. I'm carrying 20 pounds of potions and have healing magic. I'd have been fine if only I could move.

Except, in cinematic mode, Mercer can kill you from a single stab in the back(Once again, Skyrim logic)

As for your "toughness" winning out...yeah, no.

I've single-handedly killed dozens of dragons as well as wiping out hundreds of monsters and undead. A single thief is nothing.

This quest is made for you to do early on in the game, most of these faction quests are. It would make no sense for them to call you an awesome dragon slaying dragonborn early on in the game if you haven't done the main quest.

[Asuiop]

Plan or not, she could have let you die. Though, my point still stands unless you can find any quests where you get saved by a man.

The very first mission in the game.
Literally, the very first thing you do.
And just in case: IN LITERALLY THE VERY FIRST MISSION A MAN SAVES YOU FROM BEING KILLED BY A DRAGON.

Okay, sorry little brain fart there. But can you name any other instances of this?

[Asuiop]

Yes. because Mercer wasn't going to try and kill you afterwards anyway.

Oh wait, that's exactly what his plan was.



According to the lore, that's not the case. Gameplay is secondary to story.




Again, the poison stopped you from dying, not you being Dragonborn.




You are, once again, completely ignoring lore for gameplay. You are forgetting this is an RPG.




A single thief with the luck of the gods on their side? No, you wouldn't win. That's the whole reason you had to receive powers from Nocturnal in the first place.

Gameplay wise, you are literally a god in human form as well as the single most powerful person that ever lived. You can also have the blessings of almost every god in the world.

I don't care what justification you give, but Karliah's "rescue" is pretty much bunk.

You really have no idea of what an RPG is do you?

[Asuiop]

Running away would have put you in mortal danger since Mercer would have stabbed you in the back anyway.

And she would know this how? Barely anyone knows you're Dragonborn throughout the entire game.

1. Yes they can actually(Skyrim logic)
2. Actually Mercer would have picked anyone for the job, you just happened to come along,

Except, in cinematic mode, Mercer can kill you from a single stab in the back(Once again, Skyrim logic)

This quest is made for you to do early on in the game, most of these faction quests are. It would make no sense for them to call you an awesome dragon slaying dragonborn early on in the game if you haven't done the main quest.

Tell me: is that more of a rescue than someone unbinding your hands and giving you a weapon and armor then helping you escape from a dragon attack while you are literally at the weakest you'll be all game?

Because a guy, regardless how you play, saves your life in literally the very first mission.

And then later on you don't need to be saved by anyone, except Karliah in that particular scene. your point?

[Asuiop]

I thought Alduin was the Son of Akatosh.

And Jesus is the son of Yahweh.

Not the same case. The old dragon(Forgot the name) says multiple times that Alduin is the firstborn son of Akatosh. The Alduin is Akatosh thing is just a mistake made by Imperial Scholars.

[Asuiop]

Alduin is the first born of Akatosh.

Still a god of destruction iirc. And I thought you don't permanently kill him? Wouldn't that disrupt fate or something?

Actually, that should be the next game. Fate is messed up, so you have to go fix it.

Yeah, you still just mess him up, not kill him. You could tell because you didn't absorb his soul when you took him down.

[Asuiop]

My Morrowind Character is a nigh-invincible flying behemoth who can cross Tamriel in a second and kill anything in the world with one hit. Potion glitches sure are fun.

But you aren't one of the nine eight divines.

It's nine

[Asuiop]

It's nine

Shh, the Thalmor are listening!

Hah, I kill the thalmor with my eyes closed.

[Asuiop]

Clearly, the blacks would have achieved civil rights a lot faster if they had simply shut up and dealt with it.

I know. How silly of them to whine about trivial things like segregation. They should have just dealt with it and enjoyed life.

Because obviously civil rights are on the same level as women with giant tits in video games.

[Asuiop]

Because obviously civil rights are on the same level as women with giant tits in video games.

So the guy I was responding to can be dismissive about what we're talking about, but god forbid I poke fun at his apathy.

What? You were being sarcastic, so I was sarcastic back. Do you have a problem with that?

[Asuiop]

Clearly, the blacks would have achieved civil rights a lot faster if they had simply shut up and dealt with it.

I don't see women being forced to dress like stripper.

You, dress like a stripper.

[Asuiop]

This is still kind of proving nothing. What about demand for skimpy female images causes that demand to bleed into all aspects of society?

Three links, showing a direct link between media and society's views.

Try reading the links, you'll learn something.

It proves nothing. The first was about an inverse product placement, which was done for fun. The red stapler is also inverse product placement. As for Aluminum Christmas Trees, those existed before Charlie Brown, including the pink one.

[Asuiop]

It proves nothing. The first was about an inverse product placement, which was done for fun. The red stapler is also inverse product placement. As for Aluminum Christmas Trees, those existed before Charlie Brown, including the pink one.

So you didn't actually read it, but will make up things?

The Red Stapler is a specific phenomenon where a depiction of a good or service within fiction spurs demand and popularity for it outside of fiction.
Defictionalization is a specific phenomenon where a good or service is completely invented by fiction yet demand for this invented product is spurred in reality.
Aluminum Christmas Trees is a specific phenomenon where a depiction of a good or service leads to disbelief that a good or service exists.

All three are specific phenomenon where fiction impacts reality.

Defictionalization is Inverse product placement, as in a fictional product from a cartoon/fictional tv show is placed in real life.

None of these examples impact life in any meaningful way apart from a cheesy novelty gift.

[Asuiop]

But ain't the point of tropes is that they are just devices for writers to use and are not inherently bad?

Not saying anything agasint your post by the way

They aren't inherently bad. It's just that some sexist tropes are overused, such as "damsel in distress". And when you reach that point, you need a damn good justification for using it, and most games don't have one.

Just want to mention something about the mario is sexist thing.

At the time mario was made, the trope wasn't overused in video games, so it wasn't really sexist. The hundreds of games after that that used it might have been however..

[Asuiop]

Defictionalization is Inverse product placement, as in a fictional product from a cartoon/fictional tv show is placed in real life.

None of these examples impact life in any meaningful way apart from a cheesy novelty gift.

That's the level of ridiculous dishonest you've sunk to? I was asked for examples where media impacts real life and provided three different lists of examples where media impacts real life. The correct response is "I guess media can impact real life," not "That's not enough examples!"

Oh sorry, misunderstood the question he gave you. Media can impact life, annoying so..

[Atelia]

It's just an extension of society, really. But it's getting better pretty quickly.

This.

[Aurora Novus]

Soul Calibur has already been mentioned in this thread, so let's stick with it as an especially obvious example.

This is an actual character in the game: http://i71.beon.ru/41/46/834641/94/8823 ... pt_01.jpeg

The link's broken, but given your mentioning of Soul Calibur, I'm pretty sure I know who you're talking about.

My only response is, of course, so what? Why do things need to be realistic? Videogames are fantasy. Part of fantasy is the ability to creatively design characters in whatever manner you please.

Why do you want to take that away from people?

[Aurora Novus]

Yes, but I don't see men being objectified to that level.

Really? It's quite commonplace. It's fairly common to find a videogame character who is at their core an exaggeration of masculinity/femininity.

High level, supposedly powerful males aren't forced to run around in what amounts to lingerie.

No, but many are over the top, machismo males. You know, the stereotype for men.

And we don't want to take away their ability to design characters, but we can still complain that their characters are sexist and represent an impossible standard.

That seems pretty damn idiotic. "It's fantasy, therefore we'll complain about it like it's real! How dare these companies create a fantasy realm, for the purpose of enjoying the impossible! It should be realistic like everything else! No escape from reality!"

[Aurora Novus]

The link's broken, but given your mentioning of Soul Calibur, I'm pretty sure I know who you're talking about.

My only response is, of course, so what? Why do things need to be realistic? Videogames are fantasy. Part of fantasy is the ability to creatively design characters in whatever manner you please.

Why do you want to take that away from people?

It's not about realism. It's more about the objectification.

And it's objectifying, because it's not real, right?.

Hence, it's about realism. This "objectification" nonsense is nothing more than a thinly-veiled excuse to complain about developers not creating characters exactly as some of you would like them to be made, because you have different personal tastes than those developers.

Even if a game were to be "objectifying" to women, is that even a problem? Again, it's fantasy. No one is actually being harmed. And the only thing that makes "objectification" bad in the first place is the harm it causes real people; fictional women with big tits aren't causing anybody any harm.

The KKK made a video game about killing blacks and minorities. Is that not questionable? Is that not disturbing? No matter how fictional and fun it might be, there's just something wrong about it.

You know, I could make some ridiculous comparisons in your behavior to, but I think there is a pretty damn big difference between having a chick with big tits, and advocating racial slaughter.

You know, one being an immoral act, and the other just being non-realistic.

Not to mention no one is harmed by an over sexualized videogame character.

[Aurora Novus]

I don't. You can design characters in whatever manner you please. And if you design a character who is supposed to be a serious scholar avenging her father's death and then decide that the best way to express "serious scholar avenging her father's death" is "I know! Spandex boob strap, thong, and fuck-me heels!" the rest of the world can say, "Wow, you are super duper shitty at this" and choose not to buy your game.

There's a difference between choosing not to by a game, and then going out and shaming a trend and those who enjoy it, because you personally don't like it. Trying to somehow finagle it as a female rights issue, and crying about objectification, only makes your behavior scummier.

[Aurora Novus]

Because what people enjoy about fighting games like the Soul series is impossibly large-breasted women in impossibly small and poorly conceived outfits. Not the fighting, no, certainly not.

Your point? I fail to see how this is in any way relevant to anything I said.

[Aurora Novus]

-snip-

And there are plenty of games out there like that.

So...why are you complaining? Are you not satisfied with having your subjective tastes appealed to? Do you need everyone who differs from you shamed out of the market?

[Aurora Novus]

Ok so you made the point that as long as it's fictional and fun, it's okay.

Now you're saying it has to be "moral."

What? Where did I say that? I'm arguing against that.

What the fuck. That's the point I'm trying to make. There's something immoral about character design.

And I'm telling you that's bloody asinine. An oversexualized character design is not immoral. It's simply creativity and expression in a fantasy realm. Who are you to dictate what people should and should not be allowed to express? Who are you to lay moral claims against someone, simply because of their body type? Simply because they don't match your standard of appeal. It's insane.

It might be of different issues, but there's still something about it that's wrong. The point of that KKK game I just mentioned is the character design. Every objective in an FPS is to kill, but if the characters in that game shows up a pattern that amounts to sexism and racism, is it not bad?

Arguably, no, depending on the game. Simply saying "you're shooting lots of X group, it's racist!" is meaningless to me. I'd need the details of the game itself, and even then, would be skeptical in calling it immoral, as it's fantasy. Performing immoral acts in a fantasy realm doesn't make the game itself immoral or worthy of shame.

Because you wouldn't find that game immoral if the people you shoot are of different races, would you?

I don't think I'd call games moral or immoral to begin with. Art and fantasy are amoral.

[Aurora Novus]

Your point? I fail to see how this is in any way relevant to anything I said.

My point is that games can be fun and escapes from reality without being sexist,

A point no one has contested.

and indeed it would be better for all gamers were we to have more games without sexism.

No, it wouldn't, because some people enjoy the over sexualization of males and females, or the exaggeration of certain character traits. For them, it's part of the fantasy, and they like it.

You're simply trying to justify forcing your subjective tastes down the throat of all gamers, and trying to pass it off as some crusade against a moral evil. But it's evident it's just you whining because you don't like something, and think no one else should be allowed to enjoy it either.

[Aurora Novus]

Ok... imagine if you will, playing an MMO is sorta like going out in public. Your character is your clothes. How you dress affects how people see you.

I can already tell this is going to be a poor analogy, from the moment you compared playing an MMO to going out in public.

But, go on.

Now, say you're a girl and you want to play a girl. Your options are usually somewhere around stripperific.

What MMO's are you playing? There are plenty of MMO's out there that don't have women in stripper clothing. Hell, the only time I've seen skanky clothing in an MMO is alongside normal clothing. Never exclusively.

At best you might, might get an Innoncent/Cute-moe option where you can at least not just be a walking set of T&A for male gamers to drool over.

Now, if you're a guy, it's not so big a deal to play as a stripperific female character. Noone cares. But play a stripperific female character as a girl... well... you get a bit more attention in ways you probably wouldn't want...

So horny, straight guys are attracted to women.

Wow, shocker. What a crime.