Sexism in video games.

[The Serbian Empire]

I don't know what they're doing, but they're getting mad at Microsoft and Sony for not charging enough for games now and are setting prices above the recommended price. Sources put EA's demands at 80 dollars a game. Source is here.

That is ridiculous. Who in their right mind, other than die-hard fans, would pay $80 for a game? If they wish to stay in business, they're not going to be able to go down this route. Seriously, 5 games would equal an entire console system on release date.

Of course, that is a whole different discussion that we could have a thread on.

[The Serbian Empire]

Video games are pretty sexist, but the culture surrounding it is infinitely more so. Drako is a pretty good representation of the video gaming culture, constantly making asinine excuses and talking about breasts like they're so magical artifact, and disregarding female presence with comments like "The Sims don't count." It's a pretty shameful affair. The rampant sexism in video games only helps to perpetuate this culture. I honestly feel like I've heard every one of Drako's sentiments mirrored exactly at least a hundred times by different, random people.

Sometimes I hang out with groups dedicated to individual video games for a while, and it doesn't take long to see how bad it is. Be careful, you might get called the dreaded f-word there. Nope, it's not faggot, that's tossed around with utmost glee. No, if you misbehave you might get called a feminist. Shock and awe. The terror. Honestly, it really annoys me. I'd like to be able to talk about video games without all the sexist self-entitled garbage that accompanies it.

The industry itself can be pretty bad at times to. I know that my significant other got involved with making an indie game before, and pretty much her input on things was completely ignored and they barely even let her do her own job. She's damn creative, so it's a shame they passed her ideas up to go with the usual bland SWM space marine. Bleh.

This man has the right idea!

Also, to add onto his point, there is a reason why gaming is not taken seriously as an artistic medium like movies, music, theater, writing, etc are.

Hint: It's not because games are interactive.

It's the executives and decision makers. It always seems to point to the top of the pyramid when there is a problem.

[The Serbian Empire]

Google Ads know how to pickup on keywords like a pro.

Google's like a boss

Like a Dirty South Boss.

[The Serbian Empire]

It's the executives and decision makers. It always seems to point to the top of the pyramid when there is a problem.

Well pointing at the bottom doesn't work, obviously. What are you going to tell the art designer?

HOW DARE YOU INCLUDE JIGGLE PHYSICS AND IMPOSSIBLY LOW NECKLINES WHEN THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE BEING PAID FOR?! HOW DARE YOU DO YOUR JOB SO YOU CAN PUT FOOD ON THE TABLE?!

The audacity of some people. Shameful.

Executives are always the same no matter what industry for the most part save for a few exceptions like Marissa Meyer in the CEO ranks.

[The Serbian Empire]

It's the executives and decision makers. It always seems to point to the top of the pyramid when there is a problem.

Nah, in this day and age there's no excuse for it being the executives at the top. The indie scene for video games is far too large for that. People are just reluctant to break the mold. It's the whole industry, not just the few at the top.

Those executives hold the mold of what is successful and what is not. If it sells, then the executives demand more of it be made. The independents see that and also move towards that direction.

[The Serbian Empire]

Those executives hold the mold of what is successful and what is not. If it sells, then the executives demand more of it be made. The independents see that and also move towards that direction.

I don't know, most of the indie successes have been big time mold breakers. Take a lot at minecraft, for example. If you're a small time developer, would you look to what keeps the big ones in their seat of power, or what made other people in similar situations successful?

They have to be close enough to the mold otherwise it might not take off. Those big ones can survive a bust although not too many of them. If an independent is to survive, they have to make a hit every time. It will eventually draw them to the dark side of driven only by profits.

[The Serbian Empire]

They have to be close enough to the mold otherwise it might not take off. Those big ones can survive a bust although not too many of them. If an independent is to survive, they have to make a hit every time. It will eventually draw them to the dark side of driven only by profits.

All companies are driven by profit. If you're running a game studio not driven by profit then it would be non-profit and only accept donations.

Good luck getting that off the ground.

They don't survive if they try to go too far in the innovation and not enough into the profits.

[The Serbian Empire]

They don't survive if they try to go too far in the innovation and not enough into the profits.

But not innovating whatsoever also kills a lot of gaming companies. Only a select few can get away with the CALL OF DOODY 18: SHIT OPS 2 formula. Namely, the eponymous series and most sports games (due to the nature of sports).

If innovation didn't bring profit, we'd still be playing Pong.

One can't set the world on fire easily these days. For every Minecraft, there are at least 1,000 busts that never made it.

[The Serbian Empire]

My problem is that games that portray everyone as being one race or another are just being lazy with character model design and can't be arsed to include a few variations. Not everyone in Greece is white.

I always found it hilarious how on SC Sophitia and Cassandra are so damned pasty. How the hell are they that pale..in Greece?

The world will never know.

[The Serbian Empire]

Conglaturations, that is literally the stupidest thing I have ever read.

More stupid than intentionally misspelling "Conglaturations"?

Yes, that line about gender roles and sexism would lower someone's IQ by 50 points.

[The Serbian Empire]

More stupid than intentionally misspelling "Conglaturations"?

It's a video game reference, right on topic.

Holy smokes, the typos make me laugh my ass off into lower orbit.

[The Serbian Empire]

Holy smokes, the typos make me laugh my ass off into lower orbit.

Trying to play that game (Ghostbusters) would make most people throw their controller into orbit.

And Huey Lewis probably didn't like the theme song.

[The Spiral Future]

Yeah, it's a big problem. It is getting better, slowly.

This is actually pretty true. It's taking place very slowly, and one of the most surprising games that's coming out soon that seems to make no distinction between male and female is FFXIV. (Holy shit Japan is treating women like normal human beings? Er, well, catgirls! But at least it's progress.)

I mean you have terrible things like this:


But what's this?:

So in your eyes it's getting better because both sides are beginning to get eye candy?

I suppose that's one way to make things equal. not sure if one could say that it is effective though.

Is there any peer reviewed studies I could read up on I wonder?

[The Steel Magnolia]

My point is that games can be fun and escapes from reality without being sexist,

A point no one has contested.

and indeed it would be better for all gamers were we to have more games without sexism.

No, it wouldn't, because some people enjoy the over sexualization of males and females, or the exaggeration of certain character traits. For them, it's part of the fantasy, and they like it.

You're simply trying to justify forcing your subjective tastes down the throat of all gamers, and trying to pass it off as some crusade against a moral evil. But it's evident it's just you whining because you don't like something, and think no one else should be allowed to enjoy it either.

Yeah I don`t care much about the subjective opinions of sexists.

[The Steel Magnolia]

It doesn't exist.

Of course, there are a few video-games that are genuinely sexist, but this doesn't make a whole industry sexist.

There are also communities that are, overall, generally quite sexist, but these communities are usually limited to the FPS genre, and again, doesn't imply sexism exists throughout the entire video-game industry.

Watch an Anita Sarkeesian video. That's an example of the height these arguments go. Yes, I know, it's hilarious.

You mean comprehensively researched videos that point out the existence of disturbing trends?

I mean it's not dissertation level but it's fairly well done for an internet piece.

[The Steel Magnolia]

You mean comprehensively researched videos that point out the existence of disturbing trends?

I mean it's not dissertation level but it's fairly well done for an internet piece.

Uh?
Comprehensively researched?
Fuck.
It's like you people don't even bother looking up rebuttal videos to your own stuff.

The ones i've seen have been riddled with errors. As in, the kind of shit a google search and 5 minutes can figure out.
Seriously. Go watch a rebuttal to sarkeesians videos. Don't just watch her and assume because she says shes a feminist and speaks feminist-cant that she knows what the hell she's talking about.

If it's so easy then I'm sure you'd be willing to provide a summary.

[The Steel Magnolia]

I mean, look at what we're dealing with here. The argument was that a woman who discusses sexism in video game culture shouldn't be listened to because she got a RELEASE DATE WRONG.

The argument literally is "your claim that a hypersexualized storyline in which rescuing a, presumably heretosexual female, whose sole purpose in the plotline is to allow for heroics centered around the male hero, is a profoundly sexist because it continues the image that women exist only in relation to men, and only as narrative tools in their story, the only one worth following, and must remain helpless until rescued, doesn't count, because you said Tomb Raider came out in May and it came out in EARLY JUNE!

CHECKMATE FEMINISTS!"

This is, literally, what people think is an argument.

I'll reitterate my earlier statement. Absolutely fucking pathetic.

When all she's doing is stating the obvious, OR getting figures wrong, it becomes incredibly difficult to take her seriously.
Those are the only things she does.
Yes, most characters in popularized fiction are going to be white heterosexual males. We know this. We've known this for a while. So why the fuck does she think it needs a massive video series explaining that it's happening, when, you know.
We can see it happening. And what's worse is, she doesn't mention the exceptions like Metroid, so it's not even her listing off the state of the industry.
It's her listing a bunch of examples.
A fucking wikipedia category list has exactly as much content.
Just list off the examples.
Get shit wrong when you do it though, that's important.
And fuck, don't even just list off the examples.
Spend ages and ages explaining the same shit, over and over and over for each game.

Perhaps because most people don't actually know.

[The Steel Magnolia]

"But it's not sexist. You can do those things to other people. Just not in the same situation at all or with the same sort of backstory and context."

????

Even if it were sexist, does it really matter? Are you really that sensitive that you can't handle it? If don't like it, you always have the option of not engaging in it.

Of course. sexism always matters, and must always be fought against until it is nonexistant.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Either you don't believe Holocaust survivors or the friends and family of those who died in the Holocaust are people (which...would explain some things) or you somehow don't think someone saying, "It's so cool the way I can reenact murdering your siblings in front of you like the filthy kikes they are!" is harmful.

The latter.

It generates no real harm. "Hurt feelings" are not real harm. They can, you know, not play the game.

ahahaahahahahahhahaha.

Further more, simply playing such a game is not the same as supporting the actions or beliefs therein in real life. Again, it's fantasy. It's not real.

Or do you think every person who kills another "human being" in a video game is secretly a budding murderer?

Nope, but I sure as hell think that it contributes to a culture of violence and people take their cues about the real world from the media. If you present popular media which infantilizes and dehumanizes social groups, then you have people taking their cues from that media and enacting it in real life.

I'm assuming you also think the it gets better campaign is worthless too, eh? Since "hurt feelings" aren't real harm.

Until someone reaches for a razor.

[The Steel Magnolia]

I tell my PTSD friend this every time I traumatize him. Gives me a kick.

Yeah, I'd love to see Aurora try to have a PTSD-induced stress attack while driving. I'll tell you straight out, it was the worst searing pain I've ever had. And it lasted for weeks.

But no, emotional trauma does nothing. Let's just reject modern science.

Thank god I wasn't driving, but sucking it up going through airport security isn't fun at all, especially when you don't look much like your passport photo. I've never had one driving (I don't drive), or doing something potentially injurious (thankfully), but I can imagine how utterly awful that would be.

also is it really terrible of me that I want people like aurora to have to learn what it's like to actually have ptsd or panic attacks. Not for long, only for a day or three, I feel bad enough wishing it on someone as is. Regardless though, I feel as though it'd be... illuminating.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Thank god I wasn't driving, but sucking it up going through airport security isn't fun at all, especially when you don't look much like your passport photo. I've never had one driving (I don't drive), or doing something potentially injurious (thankfully), but I can imagine how utterly awful that would be.

also is it really terrible of me that I want people like aurora to have to learn what it's like to actually have ptsd or panic attacks. Not for long, only for a day or three, I feel bad enough wishing it on someone as is. Regardless though, I feel as though it'd be... illuminating.

It is terrible in my opinion: wishing suffering on anyone else is terrible. However, that doesn't mean I can't understand why you wish it.

It's a little vindictive thing in the heat of the moment, I don't think I would seriously. But again then I'm not a very nice person.

Still though, aurora, I doubt this will get through that skull of yours, but if even me, TSM, the persnickety little bitch of yore, wouldn't seriously wish those 'hurt feelings' on you? Think how terrible they must be, because ask anyone who knows me, I'm pretty vindictive.

'Hurt feelings' cause harm. We typically try to minimize the harm we do to one another. Protesting against games that cause harm is one way of doing that.

[The Steel Magnolia]

I literally could not even drive for months after my first car accident. I cannot use the intersection it was in without a panic attack and can barely even go through it in a car someone else is driving. I had a panic attack simply from seeing an accident that I wasn't even in.

Yet Aurora comes in and claims that "hurt feelings" aren't real harm.

If I made a joke at your expense about your incident, you aren't going to suffer an attack.
You might be mad at me, you might think it was in poor taste, but those aren't harm.

I'm sorry, what precisely gives you the authority to determine what will and will not trigger someone?

[The Steel Magnolia]

I'm sorry, what precisely gives you the authority to determine what will and will not trigger someone?

I've never heard of anyone having an episode triggered by a joke. If it's happened, feel free to find the example.
While we're on it though, yes. Noone has that authority.
So what's all this shit about offending people again, what precisely gives you the authority to determine what will and will not offend someone?

Me, for one? I certainly know people who have.

The dozens of rape victims I know who've been triggered if someone tells that fucking 'is it theft or rape hurr durr' "joke". The abuse victims, who hear people laughing about domestic abuse.

I means seriously, it's quite common. I don't think I've had a full blown PTSD attack because someone has said a joke, but it's not out of the realms of possibility for me alone and I'm pretty fucking lucky in terms of my flashbacks and episodes.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Me, for one? The dozens of rape victims I know who've been triggered if someone tells that fucking 'is it theft or rape hurr durr' "joke". The abuse victims, who hear people laughing about domestic abuse.

I means seriously, it's quite common. I don't think I've had a full blown PTSD attack because someone has said a joke, but it's not out of the realms of possibility.

So we're accepting ourselves as sources of authority for determining offence?
Well fuck, there goes all the religious symbolism.
There goes every anti-vaxer.
There go the creationists.
Wave bye to them, because I know plenty of people find them offensive.

Um, yes?

That's why we protest against things, that's why religious symbols are protested against.

What, precisely, do you think we're doing? We're protesting against things we think should be changed, and giving reasons as to why. "This offends me" is a perfectly valid reason.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Me, for one? I certainly know people who have.

The dozens of rape victims I know who've been triggered if someone tells that fucking 'is it theft or rape hurr durr' "joke". The abuse victims, who hear people laughing about domestic abuse.

I means seriously, it's quite common. I don't think I've had a full blown PTSD attack because someone has said a joke, but it's not out of the realms of possibility for me alone and I'm pretty fucking lucky in terms of my flashbacks and episodes.

Then those people should take measures to not hear those kinds of jokes, either by avoiding certain places/situations, or informing people beforehand that they really don't enjoy such things, as it sets them off.

It is not, however, the responsibility of the public to completely shut down something for everyone, simply because some people have cause to be opposed to it.

I didn't know I had suggested prosecuting people who told misogynistic jokes.