Sexism in video games.

[The platforms of Hetalia7]

Anyone else noticing the ad here that says "male gamers only"? With a picture of a sexually objectified woman of course.

Anyway, me, I'm not much of a gamer. Doesn't interest me. But you'd have to be blind not to notice that video games tend toward the sexist side. I've also frequently heard tell that gamer culture is highly misogynistic, from more than a couple of women gamers.

So. Would anyone like to share their opinions or thoughts on this?

*Sees the question* Yes sadly, Max wants us to pay to get the stupid ads removed.

And they do that to capitalize off of men's sexual desires. Wartune as wikipedia states is about strategic military conquest. I hate they do that making us guys look worse in the eyes of Radical Feminists.

[The Quadruple Alliance]

I think mainly, like all media, yes, video games can have sexist, racist, or other discriminatory elements too them.

I think the solution to this is to simply play and endorse the games that don't do this.

And, if you're in design, just make a character that breaks the mold and standards. I'm currently making a platformer where ya play as a conservatively dressed swordswoman/time wizard, partially to break the standards of male protagonists and female character dress attire. If you don't like the standards society sets, then just break 'em.

[The Rich Port]

OK. The long answer is "explicitly, not very many, but implicitly, a lot more."

The thing is, that gender roles are not objectively defined. For a game to have gender roles, we must consider where the gender roles are coming from.

Jesus, I'm really feeling the medication come-down. So I'm unlikely to be explaining this particularly well.

Consider the fact the quantity of games that represent the protagonist as a white male. The sheer quantity, especially when compared to games that do not. I'm going to take a couple of examples just off the top of my head. The top of my head is not great right now but let's see how this goes. Straw poll time.

Let's take the game Super Smash Bros Brawl. I've googled up a quick character screen.



34 characters. I make the following observations.

21 are male, 3 are female, 1 is a male/female team, 8 are gender-neutral, and I think I've missed one in my maths there.
19 are clearly identifiable as humans or variants on humans. Of these, only one (Ganondorf) is not white.

So let's look at our outliers. Of the three female characters listed, only one had their first appearance as a playable character. Congratulations, young Ms. Aran. Princess Peach has appeared in a spin-off of the Mario games, but usually plays the role of the "damsel in distress". As for ethnicity, Ganondorf is unequivocally a villain.

So no, not every single game. But this game alone serves as a very useful illustration of the imbalance in diversity.

So why is this important?

It's important because of the role of the protagonist. The standard narrative is "good triumphs over evil". Of the male characters presented above, they are almost all protagonists. Some of them are antagonists. The only characters who are not known as major protagonists/antagonists of the games that feature them, in fact, are Zelda, Peach and ROB.

People who play games are being presented with a strong correlation between being white, male, and embodying the characteristic of the protagonist - having agency, choice, and power. Being the one in control. They are also being presented with females - when they are present - are love interests, "damsels in distress" and the like.

So yeah, this is how games have gender roles, and an implication as to why this isn't necessarily great.

Great. And those are all characters from video games that were popular in the 80s and late 90s.
Since then we've had strong female characters like Commander Shepard (potentially, depends on the player), Joanna Dark, Chell, Alyx Vance, and other very female characters that haven't been oversexualized and are most definetly not damsels in distress. Hell Princess Zelda broke out of that mold not long after the Nintendo 64 rolled around.

Is it perfect? No, and again I blame bad focus groups and ad execs rather than bona-fide gamers running gaming companies, but your example is hardly indicative of the entire industry either. It's one cartoony game where the sole objective is to cartoonishly beat the crap out of other players in exaggerated ways. There's no patriarchal conspiracy or overt gender discrimination, and whine Nintendo could have gone to greater lengths to include more female characters, the ones that are in there are still quite capable of kicking ass left and right, just like the male ones.

... Yes there is.

In the 80's through today, there's sexism.

Yes, it comes fro ad execs and focus groups, but it's still there, and you should never become content with the default when we can do more.

I'm a gamer and I'm not a misogynist, though, so I agree that blaming gamers is not the way to go.

There's nothing wrong with being sexy, man or woman.

[The Rich Port]

Go on. Keep naming. Keep naming your list of strong female protagonists, I'll come back with a male protagonist, and we'll see who runs out of games first. Believe you me, I celebrate each and every strong female character who is defined by her agency in the story and gameplay, and not by her relation to other characters or plot/gameplay elements. But they're still a minority. And this is not the problem. This is the symptom of the problem. The problem is the mindset that makes us automatically connect "white male" to "protagonist".

Patriarchy is not a conspiracy. There is no secret council determining the course of patriarchy. Nor is there any overt gender discrimination. That's the thing that terrifies me the most. If there was, like, a hit-list of the ancient evil chairmen of the Patriarchal Conspiracy, then maybe it'd be a bit easier to deal with. But there are no villains here, no corporations to lobby against. The problem is it's endemic to all of us. Me too. I still have to fight not to fall into the old habits that have been imprinted on me all my life. The problem is it's so endemic that most people don't even recognise it as a problem. And like I said - this scares the shit out of me. Because the only way that this can be changed is slow, widespread shifts in the way we perceive gender in our culture. And again, don't get me wrong - I celebrate each step we've taken. But we're not finished yet.

Did I ever say there wasn't an egrigious imballance? No. I'm fully aware that there is and I agree that it is in no way fair to female gamers specifically and females in general. Nor did I deny that it is a problem.

But if you're going to cite the problem in the first place, doing so with silly cartoonish games is just as ignorant and facetious as the moral majority screaming bloody murder about the sex scenes in Mass Effect or any of the trite that Activision puts out these days. You'd be much better off analyzing games like Mirrors Edge or the unholy battle the producers of Remember Me had to wage with the publisher in order to keep their strong capable female antagonist intact. Then you might be making a compelling argument.

... Yes there is.

In the 80's through today, there's sexism.

Yes, it comes fro ad execs and focus groups, but it's still there, and you should never become content with the default when we can do more.

I'm a gamer and I'm not a misogynist, though, so I agree that blaming gamers is not the way to go.

There's nothing wrong with being sexy, man or woman.

Where did I advocate for that position, at any time? If you'll re-read my previous posts, again I cited just the problem that you indicated, that ad execs rule the roost and that focus groups are inherently bad ways of getting information. And neither am I a mysoginst despite your attempts to label me as such thank you.

You wanna know what the real problem is however? Look in a mirror. We keep going on and on how we don't like the lack of strong female characters, and yet when games come out that have them, do they get purchased in record numbers? Or if there's an obviously flawed oversexualized character with no redeeming qualities, how many copies go back for that reason?

We have nobody to blame but ourselves for this one.

Never labeled you as one. Just take it as the first thing that came to mind. Calm the fuck down.

... Don't lump me in with people like you. :D

I have bought all of the women games.

And, to be fair to gamers, the default has always been dudes.

We can't play as women in video games if we don't have the option to, nor should we play the game if it's bad, regardless of whether there's a woman as the protag (Venetica... Why did you lie to me?).

[The Rich Port]

We as people? We as males? Blame, if you can feel qualified to apportion it, is less useful than proposed solutions.

Speaking of proposed solutions, what the hell exactly can we do to change it?

Scold people who say dumb shit on forums? We do that anyway on NS and it just encourages them.

[The Rich Port]

Guys, Alaje is a troll.

Seriously, he's trolling. He is a troll. Stop feeding him.

How many times do you need to repeat the same thing over and over before you realize that the person you're talking to isn't listening and isn't actually interested in discussion? Seriously, for the past several dozen or so pages its been people providing reasons, arguments, and evidence and Alaje going "NU-UH!"

Thats a fucking troll.

Wait...

I thought Zweite was a sexy fascist lady.

[The Rich Port]

Wait...

I thought Zweite was a sexy fascist lady.

I believe Alaje's biologically male, with some other gender identity, and maintains they are not a fascist any more. I couldn't possibly comment on whether they're sexy or not.

Eh, as long as his/her ass looks good in a skirt, I guess I don't care.

[The Rich Port]

Never labeled you as one. Just take it as the first thing that came to mind. Calm the fuck down.

... Don't lump me in with people like you.

I have bought all of the women games.

And, to be fair to gamers, the default has always been dudes.

We can't play as women in video games if we don't have the option to, nor should we play the game if it's bad, regardless of whether there's a woman as the protag (Venetica... Why did you lie to me?).

If you don't want to be lumped in with groups, then don't apply broad labels in the first place without at least getting into the body of a debating point, deal?

And again, the gamers are still responsible for this in the long run They still buy testosterone-drenched trite like the Call of Duty series for example, and the first instinct when considering female characters isn't to analyze their nuances and traits. Usually it's "nice boobz" or "she's got butterface"

Again, us gamers are to blame in varying degrees of complicity.

See, as I said to Dakini before you, I really don't define female characters, even sexualized ones, by their fuckability. It's not required, and sometimes (in the case of stories where the highly fuckable woman also has a really fleshed out character) not even encouraged. So...

Oh right, and all the stripper-tastic writhing courtesy of Bayonetta is interpretative dance. And DOA Beach Ball was a retelling of Lord of the Flies.

Tell me, where are the over-sexualized males featuring in these games aimed at young adult women, the equivalent of those games?

Wasn't my intention to label you.

... You tell me not to generalize and then you generalize.

[The Serbian Empire]

They are, there shock value insults, they're supposed to make your respond by insulting them so they can try to smash you.

No, they're fucking creepy. Ew.

Those shock statements tend to be creepy in the first place. That's why they're so shocking in the first place.

[The Serbian Empire]

Her video series is grossly ignorant of the real problem in games.

Women aren't involved in the business side as much as they need to be.

Women have been developing some of the best games ever (a woman produced Journey, which is fucking amazing, a woman wrote Portal's amazing dialogue, just to provide two shining examples), but they're just not involved enough on the business/marketing side to make a difference, which is disappointing to say the least.

I can guarantee that as more women inevitably get involved gaming, sexism will be on the decrease. Already, sexism is a bad business strategy, with some 48% of self-described “gamers” being female, as well as 51% of Call of Duty players.

(yeah, I don't know why 51% of CoD's fanbase is female either. I don't get it)

Because it's Call of Duty... It's the game where those who claim to be gamers go, regardless of gender, ethnicity or age, it's the default, go-to game for "gamers".

It's also why I don't play it. Not to mention I'm utterly incompetent.

[The Serbian Empire]

Those shock statements tend to be creepy in the first place. That's why they're so shocking in the first place.

So I'm guessing male gamers suffer a lot or similar sexual harassment?

There's not quite as much, but much of the same stuff with a few more insults of the non-PG13 stuff with gamer's mother or girlfriend tossed in there.

[The Serbian Empire]

It happens. You have to remember that online video games are still a part of the Internet.

And 4Chan is part of the internet
*shivers*

I'm originally from there, ahaha. It's simply lax enforcement of rules there at 4chan since W.T. Snacks banned himself back in 2007 that has slide it further into the mire. It's like what anarchy looks like at least when compared to most forums.

[The Serbian Empire]

I'm originally from there, ahaha. It's simply lax enforcement of rules there at 4chan since W.T. Snacks banned himself back in 2007 that has slide it further into the mire. It's like what anarchy looks like at least when compared to most forums.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Long story short, 4chan had a brutal admin named W.T. Snacks who banned a lot of people. He lost control and eventually banned himself after a 4chan meeting of admins and moderators after they tried to strip Snacks of his admin powers.

[The Serbian Empire]

How is it sexism? IT IS MARKETING. The game is supposed to be bought by teenage boys, and what is better for advetisment to teenage boys than TITS? Seriously, are you guys trying to find things to complain about?

Because gamer girls are getting a notice part of the gaming demographic and they (Read: ALL feminists) are upset that most females characters are nothing but boobs. I'm sure marketing doesn't make not sexist.
http://www.theesa.com/facts/gameplayer.asp Also the usaul gamer 30...sooo either something different is going on or 30 yrs and/or Gaming developers are stupider than we give them credit. IN fact the ironic thing is women game are more president than what you thought was the target audience.

I bet on option 2.

[The Serbian Empire]

Anyone?

Including the 45% of the video game market who are women? Or do we not count?

Sims doesnt count

But it does... unless you want Will Wright after you.

[The Serbian Empire]

It is only a matter of time till the "Sexism in World Wrestling Entertainment" thread. Same logic

Hey, don't give anyone any ideas if you don't like it.

[The Serbian Empire]

Women are also not served well by annoying "girl gamers" who really make a point of making sure you know they're female. It only makes all women in video games targets for trolls because they know that women attract white knights like lightning rods.

Yeah, they probably explain a decent chunk of the problems.

[The Serbian Empire]

So do you think that Tekken is sexist?

Female characters:

(Image)

(Image)

Oh yeah, look at that fanservice they gave me. Yeah, there is some stuff people would call sexist.

[The Serbian Empire]

Oh yeah, look at that fanservice they gave me. Yeah, there is some stuff people would call sexist.

Is everything sexism now?

To some people the answer is yes. The problem is that the industries never change as fast as the people.

[The Serbian Empire]

Right, but the target and peripheral audiences of gaming are different. Gaming's target audience is mainly men, with women making up the peripheral audience.

Similar to how the Brony phenomena is a peripheral audience, when really MLP is meant to target young girls.

Women just need to start playing more video games.

If they can outnumber the males, then they can't be peripheral in nature anymore.

[The Serbian Empire]

If they can outnumber the males, then they can't be peripheral in nature anymore.

We're still the peripheral for movies despite buying most of the tickets.

These executives won't learn until their companies aren't profiting anymore. Time for boycotts.

[The Serbian Empire]

These executives won't learn until their companies aren't profiting anymore. Time for boycotts.

How are we supposed to outnumber the males if we're boycotting?

We need to convince them to boycott as well (ideally using EA's game price increase for the base price of the next gen games).

[The Serbian Empire]

Okay, half a dozen people have now said "games are sexist and objectify women because they're marketed to men, duh." This raises two very obvious questions:

- Are men actually incapable of liking something if it's not sexist? Because that seems both really insulting to men and not at all true of any of my male friends.

And even more obviously:

- WHY are games marketed to men?

How on earth is it a better business model to attempt to appeal to roughly half your market in ways that will repel the other half than to find strategies that appeal to the entire market? Skyrim made giant bucketfuls of money, and a big part of how it did that was by being a game that appealed to gamers from a range of demographics rather than pitching itself exclusively to the "horny 16-year-old boy with no social skills" demographic - who make up a much smaller percentage of gamers than adult women, incidentally. And if you recognize that marketing that vast majority of games towards the same fraction of all gamers is a shitty business model, while making games that are just GOOD without being an endless repeat of "buff white protagonist with manly stubble blows things up and then there are tits with REALISTIC JIGGLE MOTION, LOL" seems to rake in the big bucks, can you maybe admit that saying "games are sexist because game developers have decided female gamers don't matter" just pushes the "why is this sexist" question up a level rather than answering it?

I guess the free market doesn't work exactly how ancaps think. /notathreadjack

It does as long as the executives themselves are male and still making profits. If they aren't making money; they will be forced to change.

[The Serbian Empire]

We need to convince them to boycott as well (ideally using EA's game price increase for the base price of the next gen games).

Good luck convincing gamers not to boycott.

The gamers who don't buy into sexist games would gladly join except that, well, we don't really buy sexist games so that doesn't help.

The gamers who do buy sexist games probably don't care if you think that sexism is bad, because hey who are you to dictate to them what they do with their money?

That's why I used the game cost argument for them to join. EA wants to increase the base game price or abandon Sony and Microsoft.

[The Serbian Empire]

That's why I used the game cost argument for them to join. EA wants to increase the base game price or abandon Sony and Microsoft.

And go where? What other systems will they go to? Their failing software Origins, which will never live up to Steam? Please, EA would kill itself.

I don't know what they're doing, but they're getting mad at Microsoft and Sony for not charging enough for games now and are setting prices above the recommended price. Sources put EA's demands at 80 dollars a game. Source is here.