Sexism in video games.

[Ifreann]

I think that's different. I think that's not what feminists want. Certainly not what I want for a plot oriented game (Skyrim is good, but it's not exactly a beacon of gender equality because of it's lack of story). Because for one, the main character, you, is devoid of any personality whatsoever.

I could only remember a few games that forces you to be on the opposite role and I'm not even sure if it's good enough. Beyond Good & Evil is one. Dreamfall. Those are obscure games at that.

I can't speak to "what feminists want," since I'm not all feminists, but I can absolutely speak to what a feminist wants.

I want games like Skyrim, in which I can choose to play as a woman and not be forced to turn my character into the magical Dragonborn Stripper in order to play the game.

I want games like Portal, in which both the voiceless protagonist and the rather talkative antagonist are female and it matters not one whit.

I want games in which I can play as a fully fleshed-out, preexisting character who happens to be female, rather than an endless string of "in this new, innovative game, you play as a muscly white dude! Because that is a thing you've only been in roughly 90% of all games ever!" Ideally, I'd also love it if I could sometimes play as non-white, gay, disabled*, overweight, etc. I want the variety of game protagonists to reflect the variety of human beings in the world. I also want those protagonists to be characters who may be impacted by their race, gender, etc. without it defining them in stupid, sexist, racist ways. (See the article linked a few pages back about Tomb Raider and the idea that players should want to "protect" Lara Croft rather than BE her. Fuck that noise.)

I want games in which I see heroes who look like me. I want games in which the people who look like me are not used as decorative objects or prizes to be won, but as characters in their own right. I want games in which not ALL the female characters are played as "sexy," and the ones who are are sexy for actual plot/character reasons rather than "look, boobies."

I want games that don't leave me feeling dirty for playing them.

I want games in which I'm a person. Simple as that, really.

*I recognize that this one, unlike the rest, can't just be slotted in to any character, but there are absolutely game concepts in which the PC could be in a wheelchair or missing a limb or something and it would in no way harm and quite possibly enhance the game.

Half Life 3 would also be nice, while we're making a wishlist.

---

That would be awesome.

It would be scary as fuck, you could have the wheelchair creek when it's really quiet, that's a pretty good idea.

Consider this idea stolen.

[Ifreann]

My point is that games can be fun and escapes from reality without being sexist,

A point no one has contested.

and indeed it would be better for all gamers were we to have more games without sexism.

No, it wouldn't, because some people enjoy the over sexualization of males and females, or the exaggeration of certain character traits. For them, it's part of the fantasy, and they like it.

And they would benefit from more games that aren't sexist too.

You're simply trying to justify forcing your subjective tastes down the throat of all gamers, and trying to pass it off as some crusade against a moral evil. But it's evident it's just you whining because you don't like something, and think no one else should be allowed to enjoy it either.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that there is a finite amount of games that can exist, and that more that aren't sexist mean less that are.

[Ifreann]

People always complain about sexism towards women in games, but what about all the "dumb dad" and "slacker guy" stereotypes that seem to be in every commercial and sitcom? Seems like a double standard where it's okay to portray men in a negative way.

People also complain about that. They're just not complaining about it now, because this is the thread about sexism in video games.

[Ifreann]

And they would benefit from more games that aren't sexist too.

No, they wouldn't. You are trying to place objective criteria on subjective matters.

There is nothing innately wrong about enjoying fantasies that involve over sexualized characters, and people would not "benefit" from no longer having these, or reducing their exposure to these.

And who is suggesting keeping them from their jiggle physics? No one that I can see.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that there is a finite amount of games that can exist

Well, considering we live in the real world, where resources and time are limited...

The resources being put into developing video games in 2013 is:
a)more than in 1983.
b)less than in 1983.
c)exactly the same as in 1983.
Care to take a guess? I can't say I know for sure myself, but I know what I'd put my money on.

Generally speaking, yes, that's exactly what it means.

Except no, not at all. Greater variety in games will attract more gamers, which will make more resources available to games developers, which will allow them to make more games, including games where the main selling point is the realistic nipple simulation.

Which, in of itself, isn't necessarily a problem. Personally I'm not that big a fan of over sexualized gaming characters. I don't find it personally appealing, and the only times I've really enjoyed it are when it's done for the sake of comedy (See: Candy Kong).

But there is a difference between being okay with trends changing, and then going about, attempting to force trends to change, by shaming people for not abiding by your subjective tastes, and attempting to turn this into some kind of moral issue.

I'm not seeing a problem with shaming people who think of women as a set of bits they want to see jiggle and holes they want to jam their cocks into.

[Ifreann]

[So now have a personal, subjective taste in sexuality, that doesn't match up with your taste in sexuality, makes someone sexist

Yes, of course it does. What a stupid question.

Nuh-uh, because opinions can't be wrong. You must think that sexism isn't wrong. STOP BEING SO SEXIST, NEO ART!

[Ifreann]

And who is suggesting keeping them from their jiggle physics? No one that I can see.

You're apparently not reading the thread very well then.

Maybe so.

The resources being put into developing video games in 2013 is:
a)more than in 1983.
b)less than in 1983.
c)exactly the same as in 1983.
Care to take a guess? I can't say I know for sure myself, but I know what I'd put my money on.

Wholly irrelevant. The fact is, we live in a resource and time limited environment, and therefore there cannot be an infinite number of something.

Obviously. But there can be more than there was before, so we can have a situation where more games without sexism doesn't mean fewer games with sexism.

Except no, not at all.

Because when the FPS fad began to rise, sidescrolling platformers and open world collectathons just kept on trucking right beside it, amirite?

When one trend rises, typically other trends die. That's the nature of, again, a time and resource limited world.

Greater variety in games will attract more gamers, which will make more resources available to games developers, which will allow them to make more games, including games where the main selling point is the realistic nipple simulation.

Not necessarily. I mean, look at Nintendo. The lifetime of the Wii was more or less dedicated to trying to pull in a new gaming audience. "Casual" gamers. And, for a time, it worked. Care to take a guess as to where the resources gained by those games went? Right back into making more casual games.

And eventually, casual gamers lost interest in gaming for the most part, taking away the then largest growing portion of Nintendo's market, and the one Nintendo had been investing the most time and energy in. Time and energy spent that had ended up alienating more dedicated fans, due to lack of service.

So, no, increasing one time of game, isn't necessarily going to bring a benefit the gaming community as a whole.

A poor comparison, since "not sexist" isn't a genre of game like "casual" is.

And while I'm usually a fan of greater variety, that is not what is being advocated by people in this thread. The general attitude is shame, directed at those who enjoy over sexualized game characters, with the purpose of trying to snuff out that trend altogether.

I'm not seeing a problem with shaming people who think of women as a set of bits they want to see jiggle and holes they want to jam their cocks into.

Because in fantasy...

I'm talking about real people who think like this, not video game characters.

Just because something doesn't personally appeal to you, doesn't make it wrong.

And just because you call something subjective doesn't make it okay.

[Ifreann]

frankly, I'm a little disappointed in you that it took this long.

I'm trying to get work done in another tab.

Not getting drunk on microbews and having freaky weird sex that's illegal in seven states?

[Ifreann]

Not getting drunk on microbews and having freaky weird sex that's illegal in seven states?

Twelve.

Twelve? Yeah, that sounds like work, all right.

[Ifreann]

Not getting drunk on microbews and having freaky weird sex that's illegal in seven states?

Sadly, my favorite freaky weird illegal sex partner is currently located on the opposite side of the continent, so it's more like "remaining completely sober on ginger ale and working on building a website about tomatoes." Not quite as much fun, more's the pity.

I dunno, tomatoes are pretty exciting.

[Ifreann]

Star Wars: The Old Republic.

In which you can literally shock (This is exclusively for one female character) and beat your companions causing them to cry. It's legitimately terrible.

Done by the same company that you advocate as 'progressive'. They're just a little less bad than most other development companies.

So violence against men is okay, but against women is not?

Obviously.

[Ifreann]

So violence against men is okay, but against women is not?

How in the hell did you get that from anything he said?

What else could it possibly mean? Clearly video games are actually all sexist against men.

[Ifreann]

How in the hell did you get that from anything he said?

I say that because Gauntleted raised no quarrel with men being tortured, beaten and the like in the same game.

Yes he did. You're reading it wrong. Probably on purpose.

[Ifreann]

I put on my robe and wizard hat.

I prefer putting on my twin daggers and face mask, personally. ROGUES 4 LIFE.

(Also, c'mon, rogues are way kinkier.)

Rogues do it from behind.

[Ifreann]

Having female players who wish to play females, be forced to serve as sex appeal as opposed to being able to choose it is misogyny. Just like forcing a woman to go about her daily business in a bikini and heels would be.

You're forcing them to present themselves in a certain manner solely to please the male players. How is that not mysoginistic?

Is it misandrist that the male characters are forced to dress in a manner that makes them hulky and buff, something stereotypically attractive to females?
I'm genuinely asking.
For me it's both or neither. I'm not convinced yet.
It's an escapist reality, and who wouldn't want to be sexy. Most guys will like the way the girls look like that. Most girls will like the way the guys look, so it's just cost-effective.
Character customization, when it expands, will leave this thing in the dust anyway.

So... what about the fact that most males in Skyrim are ultra buff and full of muscles. Aint that sexism?

Male power fantasies are not the same as making women into sex objects.

Here's a comic to explain the difference.

[Ifreann]

Mhm.

Come back when you have an argument dearie.

I refuse to bring my A-game to tee ball.

If you were really a lawyer you'd be on Youtube.

[Ifreann]

Go ahead and explain how that game, in of itself, harms people.

I'll wait.

Either you don't believe Holocaust survivors or the friends and family of those who died in the Holocaust are people (which...would explain some things) or you somehow don't think someone saying, "It's so cool the way I can reenact murdering your siblings in front of you like the filthy kikes they are!" is harmful. Which would require a definition of "harmful" so fucking stupid that it defies belief.

It's only harm if you have broken bones, open wounds, failing organs, and the like. Emotional and mental trauma aren't real. Everyone knows that.

[Ifreann]

Nope, but I sure as hell think that it contributes to a culture of violence

Hardly. Violence in media does not translate out to violence in real life in this neat little way people like you suggest.

Which is funny, because literally nobody thinks that it's any kind of 1:1 thing except the people denying it. That Drako kid was playing us the "I play GTA but I don't rob cars" tune way back at the start of the thread. Got anything more original in your repertoire?

[Ifreann]

How about you quote my whole comment?

I did. I just don't bottom post. I interleave.

I love that there is a wikipedia entry on this and I am going to throw it at people until they interleave more.

---

Oh please, like "lesbian" is a thing.

It is to me! D':

It's all in your head/pants, and therefore isn't real.

[Ifreann]

I love that there is a wikipedia entry on this and I am going to throw it at people until they interleave more.

I think there's a wiki on almost everything. If you can think of something that wiki doesn't have, you should make the page.

Your style is classier though, with your hard rules and all.

I'm pretty sure I made a thread, at some point since we moved to this forum, about how obviously the best way to post is to interleave(though I didn't know to call it that), multi-quote using the topic review and multiple tabs, and use the hr tag to split up quotes from different people. I don't recall it going anywhere.

---

It's all in your head/pants, and therefore isn't real.

You meanie mean-head! D':

Yes. Yes I am.

[Ifreann]

Hurt feelings =/= PTSD.

I just want to remind everyone that Aurora's argument was explicitly that Holocaust survivors would not be hurt by a game glorifying the Holocaust.

Apparently, Holocaust survivors only suffer from "hurt feelings" about watching their families be murdered. Who knew?

Not what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is we, the public, have no responsibility to constantly live on edge, for fear of setting someone off. Nor should it be.

Once again, I want to remind everyone that Aurora's argument was explicitly that Holocaust survivors would not be hurt by a game glorifying the Holocaust.

Apparently, not glorifying the Holocaust is REALLY HARD and requires CONSTANTLY LIVING ON EDGE, you guys. I know I often trip and find I've accidentally yelled, "HEIL HITLER KILL ALL THE JEWS."

Just now I found a post I was writing had somehow become a 1500 word essay on the inferiority of the Jewish race. It keeps happening! Somehow the Jews keep changing my....argh!

[Ifreann]

"Strong female characters" does not automatically equal a lack of sexism. Also, by the by, trying to pass of Mario as lacking sexism really makes me doubt your credibility.

[.

Mario has sexism? Seriously? Unless you think the princess being kidnapped thing is sexist, which is ridiculous, then I don't know what you're talking about.

You should watch that Tropes vs Women series mentioned earlier, it explains this kind of thing. Assuming you actually care to learn anything about the topic at hand at all. Which I'm sure we all rather suspect you don't.

[Ifreann]

You know, women are not the only one's being stereotyped in video games. Many games (i should say most) have a strong heroic man fighting bad guys and blindly following orders to save *insert something here*. If anything i think men get it worse in the video game world.

I know I feel oppressed and dehumanised every day because the straight, white men in video games fill the roles of the heroes, the villains, the sidekicks, the wise old mentors, the scheming viziers, <insert exhaustive list of all possible protagonist and antagonist roles>.

[Ifreann]

All the fucking time? When the male character never is?

Please, name some modern games in which the woman are always needing saving.

Literally every core Mario game, except the one that's a re-skin of a totally different game.

[Ifreann]

I know I feel oppressed and dehumanised every day because the straight, white men in video games fill the roles of the heroes, the villains, the sidekicks, the wise old mentors, the scheming viziers, <insert exhaustive list of all possible protagonist and antagonist roles>.

were did you get white or straight?

The 2013 Catalogue of People Who Aren't Actually Suffering The Worst Discrimination In Society.

I am saying men are stereotyped as well.

Men aren't being stereotyped, unless you're trying to suggest on a meta level that video games are stereotyping the players by suggesting that they all want to be the muscle-bound hero who saves the girl and what not.

[Ifreann]

Literally every core Mario game, except the one that's a re-skin of a totally different game.

So because its a woman they are saving its sexist?
w

No. As was explained in the videos that have been linked, which I suggested you watch if you wished to learn something about the topic at hand. Which you have clearly not watched, and show no intention of watching.

Remind me, why are you here?