NationStates

Posted: **Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:30 am**

Blasveck wrote:
Tarsonis Survivors wrote:
True, but Liberal and Libertarian Catholics do the enround, "I don't agree, but I just don't think the Government should legislate it" schtick. Don't underestimate the Church's Power!

I don't. I'd certainly like that power to be used for good, if anything.

While I understand the traditions and reasons behind building fantastic, gorgeous, opulent churches, it's be nice if a little bit more of that money wen to helping the downtrodden, y'know?

Building churches does help the poor; it helps everyone. Plus, Holy Mother Church is the prime charitable contributor.

Posted: **Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:35 am**

A Catholic church in west Texas was criticized for its opulence, gilding, lovely stained glass, hand carving. They were told they lived in an area of poverty and should care for the poor.

They replied "We are those 'poor' you keep talking about. The average income for this parish is below that of even our impoverished county. We take care of each other. But this is our church, this is how we want to make ourselves happy, gain a sense of peace. Spend your money however you want, we are not using anything but our own resources. Leave us alone."

Posted: **Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:41 am**

Blasveck wrote:
Tarsonis Survivors wrote:
True, but Liberal and Libertarian Catholics do the enround, "I don't agree, but I just don't think the Government should legislate it" schtick. Don't underestimate the Church's Power!

I don't. I'd certainly like that power to be used for good, if anything.

While I understand the traditions and reasons behind building fantastic, gorgeous, opulent churches, it's be nice if a little bit more of that money wen to helping the downtrodden, y'know?

I go to church to get my mind off of things. My parish is known for being poor, but the Cathedral was built in the mid to late 1800's. When I go I am able to forget that I don't have much money and that I have bills to pay, I'm able to feel rich through my spirituality and faith rather than poor and am reminded that I am poor because of the Church I attend.

The Church uses its own money to construct and maintain these churches - it also uses its money to help the downtrodden. It's the understatement of the year if you think it is not one of the biggest charity organizations in the entire world.

Posted: **Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:45 pm**

Nuverikstan wrote:1.Well I agree with everything except for the poverty one. Where I live we actually help the poor a lot, but I don't know about other churches.
2.Excatly. *Takes a whiff of the air* Smell that freedom.

1. The ones I've seen/been to actively condemn things that actually help the poor (like welfare programs). I don't feel like that's a Christian stance.

2. Psh. Republic of West Florida is best US annex.

EDIT: I have no clue how the hell I managed to mangle the quote code...

Posted: **Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:51 pm**

Magna Libero wrote:
Nuverikstan wrote:1.Well I agree with everything except for the poverty one. Where I live we actually help the poor a lot, but I don't know about other churches.
2.Excatly. *Takes a whiff of the air* Smell that freedom.

1. Weird. I haven't heard of any anti- poor people churches. My churches help poor people and also evangelize in foreign poor countries and help them.

Your church isn't American and doesn't often ally itself with the GOP.

Posted: **Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:54 pm**

Grenartia wrote:
Magna Libero wrote:1. Weird. I haven't heard of any anti- poor people churches. My churches help poor people and also evangelize in foreign poor countries and help them.

Your church isn't American and doesn't often ally itself with the GOP.

I mean, the Catholic Church itself here in Italy isn't exactly pro-welfare, but they would never dare to go to the lenght of the Christian Right in the US.

Posted: **Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:54 pm**

Magna Libero wrote:1. Weird. I haven't heard of any anti- poor people churches. My churches help poor people and also evangelize in foreign poor countries and help them.

“Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?" Priest: "No, not if you did not know." Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"”

Posted: **Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:55 pm**

Conscentia wrote:
Magna Libero wrote:1. Weird. I haven't heard of any anti- poor people churches. My churches help poor people and also evangelize in foreign poor countries and help them.

“Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?" Priest: "No, not if you did not know." Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"”

Because priests are trolls.

Posted: **Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:02 pm**

Agritum wrote:
Grenartia wrote:
Your church isn't American and doesn't often ally itself with the GOP.

I mean, the Catholic Church itself here in Italy isn't exactly pro-welfare, but they would never dare to go to the lenght of the Christian Right in the US.

That's another thing I don't get. Why would the Catholic Church, of all institutions, be opposed to welfare? You'd think that if they were as concerned for the impoverished and downtrodden as they say, they'd welcome the extra help.

Conscentia wrote:
Magna Libero wrote:1. Weird. I haven't heard of any anti- poor people churches. My churches help poor people and also evangelize in foreign poor countries and help them.

“Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?" Priest: "No, not if you did not know." Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"”

And that's part of why I don't believe in actively trying to convert people. In addition to the fact that doing so violates the bit Jesus preached about 'doing unto others'. I feel the best way a Christian can fulfill the Great Commission is not by shoving our religion down others' throats, but by living our lives in such a way that people will want to learn more about Christianity (and even become Christians themselves).

Posted: **Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:12 pm**

Grenartia wrote:
Agritum wrote:I mean, the Catholic Church itself here in Italy isn't exactly pro-welfare, but they would never dare to go to the lenght of the Christian Right in the US.

That's another thing I don't get. Why would the Catholic Church, of all institutions, be opposed to welfare? You'd think that if they were as concerned for the impoverished and downtrodden as they say, they'd welcome the extra help.

Conscentia wrote:“Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?" Priest: "No, not if you did not know." Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"”

And that's part of why I don't believe in actively trying to convert people. In addition to the fact that doing so violates the bit Jesus preached about 'doing unto others'. I feel the best way a Christian can fulfill the Great Commission is not by shoving our religion down others' throats, but by living our lives in such a way that people will want to learn more about Christianity (and even become Christians themselves).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_s ... bsidiarity

Posted: **Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:40 pm**

As a distributist and proponent of Catholic social teaching who volunteers to help the local homeless, I almost have to scoff at the notion that the Church does not contribute its fair share to charity.

Wherever the Catholic Church goes, so too have its opulent cathedrals, but wherever there is a cathedral you can be sure that there is several hundred times more charity going on in its immediate area than there would be without such a centre of Catholic faith. Our Roman Catholic Church is the biggest charitable organisation in the world after all.

In many ways you could consider our faith and charity to be the exact opposite of the greed philosophy espoused by some of those protestant churches in the US who ally themselves to the laissez faire capitalism of the Republican Party. Take a look at this article if you doubt my assertion.

Posted: **Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:49 pm**

Grenartia wrote:
Nuverikstan wrote:1.Well I agree with everything except for the poverty one. Where I live we actually help the poor a lot, but I don't know about other churches.
2.Excatly. *Takes a whiff of the air* Smell that freedom.

1. The ones I've seen/been to actively condemn things that actually help the poor (like welfare programs). I don't feel like that's a Christian stance.

2. Psh. Republic of West Florida is best US annex.

EDIT: I have no clue how the hell I managed to mangle the quote code...

Oh you mean anti welfare. I am against it myself because it doesn't work anymore if it did. Maybe back in the 1900 it worked, but it seems now days more people abuse it. Consider what happen in Louisiana last year. The welfare cards stopped working and Walmart allowed people to still use them. And this one lady they found out later had only 69 cents left bought a 32 inch tv. Along with many other people who had barely anything on their card. Now you can say it was Walmart's fault, but those people had a choice to be honest or not and they chose not. So I see the welfare system as bad for our country.

Posted: **Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:03 pm**

Irredento wrote:As a distributist and proponent of Catholic social teaching who volunteers to help the local homeless, I almost have to scoff at the notion that the Church does not contribute its fair share to charity.

Wherever the Catholic Church goes, so too have its opulent cathedrals, but wherever there is a cathedral you can be sure that there is several hundred times more charity going on in its immediate area than there would be without such a centre of Catholic faith. Our Roman Catholic Church is the biggest charitable organisation in the world after all.

In many ways you could consider our faith and charity to be the exact opposite of the greed philosophy espoused by some of those protestant churches in the US who ally themselves to the laissez faire capitalism of the Republican Party. Take a look at this article if you doubt my assertion.

I'd just like to say that I didn't mean to imply that the Church wasn't generous. Rather, that one would think that given its policies, it would be supportive of welfare, as every dollar (or whatever currency) that the state uses to help the poor means one less dollar the Church has to give to an individual, thus meaning it can help more people.

Nuverikstan wrote:
Grenartia wrote:
1. The ones I've seen/been to actively condemn things that actually help the poor (like welfare programs). I don't feel like that's a Christian stance.

2. Psh. Republic of West Florida is best US annex.

EDIT: I have no clue how the hell I managed to mangle the quote code...

Oh you mean anti welfare. I am against it myself because it doesn't work anymore if it did. Maybe back in the 1900 it worked, but it seems now days more people abuse it. Consider what happen in Louisiana last year. The welfare cards stopped working and Walmart allowed people to still use them. And this one lady they found out later had only 69 cents left bought a 32 inch tv. Along with many other people who had barely anything on their card. Now you can say it was Walmart's fault, but those people had a choice to be honest or not and they chose not. So I see the welfare system as bad for our country.

Because isolated incidents are totally indicative of how the majority of welfare money is spent. Implying that steps can't be taken to insure that the few people who do abuse the system are unable to, without keeping the people who need it from getting it.
Implying that keeping those few people from abusing the system is better than making sure poor people don't starve and die in the streets.

Posted: **Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:13 pm**

Grenartia wrote:
Agritum wrote:I mean, the Catholic Church itself here in Italy isn't exactly pro-welfare, but they would never dare to go to the lenght of the Christian Right in the US.

That's another thing I don't get. Why would the Catholic Church, of all institutions, be opposed to welfare? You'd think that if they were as concerned for the impoverished and downtrodden as they say, they'd welcome the extra help.

Conscentia wrote:“Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?" Priest: "No, not if you did not know." Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"”

And that's part of why I don't believe in actively trying to convert people. In addition to the fact that doing so violates the bit Jesus preached about 'doing unto others'. I feel the best way a Christian can fulfill the Great Commission is not by shoving our religion down others' throats, but by living our lives in such a way that people will want to learn more about Christianity (and even become Christians themselves).

You can certainly TELL them about Christianity, but forcing it down people's throats? That's not a good thing.

Like it's always says, spread the Seed, let God do the growing. Basically free choice.

Posted: **Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:28 pm**

Grenartia wrote:
Conscentia wrote:“Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?" Priest: "No, not if you did not know." Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"”

And that's part of why I don't believe in actively trying to convert people. In addition to the fact that doing so violates the bit Jesus preached about 'doing unto others'. I feel the best way a Christian can fulfill the Great Commission is not by shoving our religion down others' throats, but by living our lives in such a way that people will want to learn more about Christianity (and even become Christians themselves).

That idea seems more Jewish than it does Christian...

Posted: **Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:51 pm**

Menassa wrote:
Grenartia wrote:
And that's part of why I don't believe in actively trying to convert people. In addition to the fact that doing so violates the bit Jesus preached about 'doing unto others'. I feel the best way a Christian can fulfill the Great Commission is not by shoving our religion down others' throats, but by living our lives in such a way that people will want to learn more about Christianity (and even become Christians themselves).

That idea seems more Jewish than it does Christian...

Wasn't Jesus Jewish?

Posted: **Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:52 pm**

Bundesdeutschland wrote:
Menassa wrote:That idea seems more Jewish than it does Christian...

Wasn't Jesus Jewish?

If he was born from Mary...

Posted: **Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:06 pm**

Conscentia wrote:
Magna Libero wrote:1. Weird. I haven't heard of any anti- poor people churches. My churches help poor people and also evangelize in foreign poor countries and help them.

“Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?" Priest: "No, not if you did not know." Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"”

I do not believe in that. Because if it were true God would say don't tell anyone about Christ so they can go to heaven. He says go tell the world. So that makes me believe that if you haven't heard about God you are not going to heaven.

Posted: **Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:07 pm**

Nuverikstan wrote:
Conscentia wrote:“Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?" Priest: "No, not if you did not know." Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"”

I do not believe in that. Because if it were true God would say don't tell anyone about Christ so they can go to heaven. He says go tell the world. So that makes me believe that if you haven't heard about God you are not going to heaven.

So that means that if you do not believe in the Christian God you are not going to heaven?

Posted: **Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:12 pm**

Nuverikstan wrote:
Conscentia wrote:“Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?" Priest: "No, not if you did not know." Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"”

I do not believe in that. Because if it were true God would say don't tell anyone about Christ so they can go to heaven. He says go tell the world. So that makes me believe that if you haven't heard about God you are not going to heaven.

Well then, there must be billions and billions of people in hell then, according to that logic.

Posted: **Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:15 pm**

Conscentia wrote:
Magna Libero wrote:1. Weird. I haven't heard of any anti- poor people churches. My churches help poor people and also evangelize in foreign poor countries and help them.

“Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?" Priest: "No, not if you did not know." Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"”

That's a funny loophole.

To save everyone, we should all get memory wiped.

Posted: **Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:16 pm**

Vazdania wrote:
Nuverikstan wrote:I do not believe in that. Because if it were true God would say don't tell anyone about Christ so they can go to heaven. He says go tell the world. So that makes me believe that if you haven't heard about God you are not going to heaven.

Well then, there must be billions and billions of people in hell then, according to that logic.

Isn't there some verse along the lines of: "Those who have been given much will be expected much of them, those who have been given little will be expected little of them." or am I imagining things?

Posted: **Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:42 pm**

Vazdania wrote:
Nuverikstan wrote:I do not believe in that. Because if it were true God would say don't tell anyone about Christ so they can go to heaven. He says go tell the world. So that makes me believe that if you haven't heard about God you are not going to heaven.

Well then, there must be billions and billions of people in hell then, according to that logic.

Yeah, I believe that souls who do not know the Good News will spend some time in Purgatory so long as they lived decent lives and are therefore in a state of grace when they die.

However, no one stays in Purgatory forever, nor do they go to Hell, so Heaven does await them in the end.

The reason we spread the gospel is because God wishes His people to live according to His will so that they might be happy and fulfilled while serving Him. We do not want God to look down on a Godless world akin to a global Sodom and feel regret over having created us.

Posted: **Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:44 pm**

Irredento wrote:
Vazdania wrote:Well then, there must be billions and billions of people in hell then, according to that logic.

Yeah, I believe that souls who do not know the Good News will spend some time in Purgatory so long as they lived decent lives and are therefore in a state of grace when they die.

However, no one stays in Purgatory forever, nor do they go to Hell, so Heaven does await them in the end.

The reason we spread the gospel is because God wishes His people to live according to His will so that they might be happy and fulfilled while serving Him. We do not want God to look down on a Godless world akin to a global Sodom and feel regret over having created us.

*shrug*
He said he'd never destroy it again, so I don't really see the problem.

Posted: **Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:52 pm**

Menassa wrote:
Irredento wrote:Yeah, I believe that souls who do not know the Good News will spend some time in Purgatory so long as they lived decent lives and are therefore in a state of grace when they die.

However, no one stays in Purgatory forever, nor do they go to Hell, so Heaven does await them in the end.

The reason we spread the gospel is because God wishes His people to live according to His will so that they might be happy and fulfilled while serving Him. We do not want God to look down on a Godless world akin to a global Sodom and feel regret over having created us.

*shrug*
He said he'd never destroy it again, so I don't really see the problem.

That's not the point. I do not want to upset God regardless of what might happen to me. The things I have suffered in my life are nothing compared to the pain He suffered on the cross for our sins.

All good Christians remember His sacrifice and will not allow it to have been in vain.

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Christian Discussion Thread III