Christian Discussion Thread III

[Tlik]

Be Thou my Vision (Irish Hymn)

This version's become quite popular recently. I quite like the older phrasing, but I think the joyful feel Rend Collective Experiment added is quite brilliant.

Aside from that, Matt Redman's 10000 Reasons. Indeed, quite a lot of Redman's stuff. An array of organ-thumping hymns taught to me by our church's music leader and Songs of Praise, the whole "And Can it Be" etc.

And a love-hate relationship that extends from childhood onwards to Our God Is A Great Big God, and associated tracks. Even now I can still do all the actions.

[The Realm of God]

Be Thou my Vision (Irish Hymn)

This version's become quite popular recently. I quite like the older phrasing, but I think the joyful feel Rend Collective Experiment added is quite brilliant.

Aside from that, Matt Redman's 10000 Reasons. Indeed, quite a lot of Redman's stuff. An array of organ-thumping hymns taught to me by our church's music leader and Songs of Praise, the whole "And Can it Be" etc.

And a love-hate relationship that extends from childhood onwards to Our God Is A Great Big God, and associated tracks. Even now I can still do all the actions.

I didn't actually find those too bad, I tend to have love-hate relationship with modern hymns, they can sometimes swerve into South Park territory. One exception though, the spiritual subgenre of Roots Reggae is amazing.

[Conscentia]

Now, what is your favorite Christian song, hymn, or chant.
Here's mine, it's sung at Lazarus Saturday and Palm Sunday in the Orthodox Church:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmadHMRLuWQ

I like the works of Hildegard von Bingen - perhaps the world's first conlanger.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Now, what is your favorite Christian song, hymn, or chant.

Here's mine, it's sung at Lazarus Saturday and Palm Sunday in the Orthodox Church:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmadHMRLuWQ

I'll say, "Our God is an awesome God.". I was at Promise Keepers, and Just hearing 50,000 men sing this song, is just powerful.

I also kind of like "My Savior loves.".it's an okay rendition of a powerful poem.

[Angleter]

Now, what is your favorite Christian song, hymn, or chant.

Here's mine, it's sung at Lazarus Saturday and Palm Sunday in the Orthodox Church:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmadHMRLuWQ

Rorate Caeli's nice, for a chant. As for hymns, I'm a fan of Faith of Our Fathers. I tend to prefer traditional hymns and chants, having gone to a Catholic primary school in the UK in the late JPII era, which was a period when liturgical liberalism in the Vatican reached its zenith, to match the eternal liturgical liberalism among the English bishops and (in particular) the Catholic Education Service they run. The hymns that predominated there were virtually pop music (indeed, some of them were - unwittingly, I was taught as hymns Little Peggy March's I Will Follow Him, and another hymn that only a few months ago I realised was sung to the tune of Puppy Love by Paul Anka). The most Latin we got, other than a rare dusting-off of Gaudete (in the style of Steeleye Span, natch) in December, apparently had to be interspersed with clapping ("Gloria! *clapclap* Gloria! *clapclap* Iiiin Exclesis Deeeeeo!" - literally happy-clappy, I suppose) to make it 'relevant' enough. I know it was a primary school (and a good one at that), and there were some vaguely traditional hymns, but still.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Ave Maria, is a good song depending heavily on the arrangement. For instance the arrangement they used for Hit Man III is incredible. The arrangement they used for Fantasia,... not so much.

[The Realm of God]

Now, what is your favorite Christian song, hymn, or chant.

Here's mine, it's sung at Lazarus Saturday and Palm Sunday in the Orthodox Church:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmadHMRLuWQ

Rorate Caeli's nice, for a chant. As for hymns, I'm a fan of Faith of Our Fathers. I tend to prefer traditional hymns and chants, having gone to a Catholic primary school in the UK in the late JPII era, which was a period when liturgical liberalism in the Vatican reached its zenith, to match the eternal liturgical liberalism among the English bishops and (in particular) the Catholic Education Service they run. The hymns that predominated there were virtually pop music (indeed, some of them were - unwittingly, I was taught as hymns Little Peggy March's I Will Follow Him, and another hymn that only a few months ago I realised was sung to the tune of Puppy Love by Paul Anka). The most Latin we got, other than a rare dusting-off of Gaudete (in the style of Steeleye Span, natch) in December, apparently had to be interspersed with clapping ("Gloria! *clapclap* Gloria! *clapclap* Iiiin Exclesis Deeeeeo!" - literally happy-clappy, I suppose) to make it 'relevant' enough. I know it was a primary school (and a good one at that), and there were some vaguely traditional hymns, but still.

They used that Gloria in the Anglican Church in Wales, just after the collect. That was in 2004 so I guess it wasn't an exclusively Catholic thing.

Your point though is sound, the people who try and make the Church more 'relevant' fail because they dumb it down, people don't want the church to be 'cool'. In the information age the Church will survive by being more intellectually and theologically aware to satisfy people's spiritual needs, possibly by returning to its traditional roots.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Rorate Caeli's nice, for a chant. As for hymns, I'm a fan of Faith of Our Fathers. I tend to prefer traditional hymns and chants, having gone to a Catholic primary school in the UK in the late JPII era, which was a period when liturgical liberalism in the Vatican reached its zenith, to match the eternal liturgical liberalism among the English bishops and (in particular) the Catholic Education Service they run. The hymns that predominated there were virtually pop music (indeed, some of them were - unwittingly, I was taught as hymns Little Peggy March's I Will Follow Him, and another hymn that only a few months ago I realised was sung to the tune of Puppy Love by Paul Anka). The most Latin we got, other than a rare dusting-off of Gaudete (in the style of Steeleye Span, natch) in December, apparently had to be interspersed with clapping ("Gloria! *clapclap* Gloria! *clapclap* Iiiin Exclesis Deeeeeo!" - literally happy-clappy, I suppose) to make it 'relevant' enough. I know it was a primary school (and a good one at that), and there were some vaguely traditional hymns, but still.

They used that Gloria in the Anglican Church in Wales, just after the collect. That was in 2004 so I guess it wasn't an exclusively Catholic thing.

Your point though is sound, the people who try and make the Church more 'relevant' fail because they dumb it down, people don't want the church to be 'cool'. In the information age the Church will survive by being more intellectually and theologically aware to satisfy people's spiritual needs, possibly by returning to its traditional roots.

I don't know, updating certain practices to make it more culturally relevant, isn't inherently bad. Honest to God singing Hymns was like pulling teeth with me. Praise style songs resonate more with me than Hymns. It doesn't dumb anything down. And you're wrong, people do want church to be cool again.

[The Realm of God]

They used that Gloria in the Anglican Church in Wales, just after the collect. That was in 2004 so I guess it wasn't an exclusively Catholic thing.

Your point though is sound, the people who try and make the Church more 'relevant' fail because they dumb it down, people don't want the church to be 'cool'. In the information age the Church will survive by being more intellectually and theologically aware to satisfy people's spiritual needs, possibly by returning to its traditional roots.

I don't know, updating certain practices to make it more culturally relevant, isn't inherently bad. Honest to God singing Hymns was like pulling teeth with me. Praise style songs resonate more with me than Hymns. It doesn't dumb anything down. And you're wrong, people do want church to be cool again.

People are pining for spirituality in this century, why do you think there is a huge amount of new religious movements and the New Age movement. It's because the Church doesn't resonate with them anymore, it has got to the point were the church has stagnated for so long and has ceased to become spiritual to many due to unsatisfying dogma and the rise of a judgemental blend of Christianity and Neoconservativism in the once 'cool' charismatic movement. I believe we are experiencing a new time of change in Christianity, the type that seems to happen every five hundred years.

People want to find spirituality in the age of anxiety and the Gospel is still relevant and always will be relevant. However the establishment does not realise that spirituality has moved away from one size fits all do this and that spirituality. Instead people are yearning for a personal experience of God and a stimulation of their intellect in an environment that recognises that everybody has gifts and callings, an environment that teachs a traditional interpretation of scripture that does not clash with modern science instead of fundamentalism in an institution that has a sense of time and history.

[Czechanada]

I don't know, updating certain practices to make it more culturally relevant, isn't inherently bad. Honest to God singing Hymns was like pulling teeth with me. Praise style songs resonate more with me than Hymns. It doesn't dumb anything down. And you're wrong, people do want church to be cool again.

People are pining for spirituality in this century, why do you think there is a huge amount of new religious movements and the New Age movement. It's because the Church doesn't resonate with them anymore, it has got to the point were the church has stagnated for so long and has ceased to become spiritual to many due to unsatisfying dogma and the rise of a judgemental blend of Christianity and Neoconservativism in the once 'cool' charismatic movement. I believe we are experiencing a new time of change in Christianity, the type that seems to happen every five hundred years.

People want to find spirituality in the age of anxiety and the Gospel is still relevant and always will be relevant. However the establishment does not realise that spirituality has moved away from one size fits all do this and that spirituality. Instead people are yearning for a personal experience of God and a stimulation of their intellect in an environment that recognises that everybody has gifts and callings, an environment that teachs a traditional interpretation of scripture that does not clash with modern science instead of fundamentalism in an institution that has a sense of time and history.

That was a very well written and informative post.

[Angleter]

Rorate Caeli's nice, for a chant. As for hymns, I'm a fan of Faith of Our Fathers. I tend to prefer traditional hymns and chants, having gone to a Catholic primary school in the UK in the late JPII era, which was a period when liturgical liberalism in the Vatican reached its zenith, to match the eternal liturgical liberalism among the English bishops and (in particular) the Catholic Education Service they run. The hymns that predominated there were virtually pop music (indeed, some of them were - unwittingly, I was taught as hymns Little Peggy March's I Will Follow Him, and another hymn that only a few months ago I realised was sung to the tune of Puppy Love by Paul Anka). The most Latin we got, other than a rare dusting-off of Gaudete (in the style of Steeleye Span, natch) in December, apparently had to be interspersed with clapping ("Gloria! *clapclap* Gloria! *clapclap* Iiiin Exclesis Deeeeeo!" - literally happy-clappy, I suppose) to make it 'relevant' enough. I know it was a primary school (and a good one at that), and there were some vaguely traditional hymns, but still.

They used that Gloria in the Anglican Church in Wales, just after the collect. That was in 2004 so I guess it wasn't an exclusively Catholic thing.

Your point though is sound, the people who try and make the Church more 'relevant' fail because they dumb it down, people don't want the church to be 'cool'. In the information age the Church will survive by being more intellectually and theologically aware to satisfy people's spiritual needs, possibly by returning to its traditional roots.

I'd agree. I think the churches have yet to realise the state that they're in - the issue is not to make its beliefs 'relevant' (a favourite of liberal Catholics), or to make 'relevant' public statements (a favourite of the Anglican Church - see Welby on bankers), or to make the liturgy 'relevant'. People aren't going to Mass/services because they either don't believe any more, or because they half-heartedly believe, or (if they do believe, to whatever extent) because they don't get the importance of Church attendance (which may have been as a result of liturgical 'updates'). The churches really ought to be turning their attention to making clear and reasonable cases for God's existence and the truth of Christianity more than anything, and to spreading information about their theology (starting with the basics). The public, generally, are clueless about Christian theology - it's easy to blame that on a secular media that's scarcely interested in religion (the Catholic Church has a remarkable and unparalleled ability to be misinterpreted on virtually everything it says), but frankly the churches aren't doing enough on public relations. On the one hand it's nice to see groups like Catholic Voices and uCatholic springing up, but on the other hand it's worrying that it has to take largely lay movements for these sort of things to spring up.

[Grave_n_idle]

Ave Maria, is a good song depending heavily on the arrangement. For instance the arrangement they used for Hit Man III is incredible. The arrangement they used for Fantasia,... not so much.

Agreed.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

I don't know, updating certain practices to make it more culturally relevant, isn't inherently bad. Honest to God singing Hymns was like pulling teeth with me. Praise style songs resonate more with me than Hymns. It doesn't dumb anything down. And you're wrong, people do want church to be cool again.

People are pining for spirituality in this century, why do you think there is a huge amount of new religious movements and the New Age movement. It's because the Church doesn't resonate with them anymore, it has got to the point were the church has stagnated for so long and has ceased to become spiritual to many due to unsatisfying dogma and the rise of a judgemental blend of Christianity and Neoconservativism in the once 'cool' charismatic movement. I believe we are experiencing a new time of change in Christianity, the type that seems to happen every five hundred years.

People want to find spirituality in the age of anxiety and the Gospel is still relevant and always will be relevant. However the establishment does not realise that spirituality has moved away from one size fits all do this and that spirituality. Instead people are yearning for a personal experience of God and a stimulation of their intellect in an environment that recognises that everybody has gifts and callings, an environment that teachs a traditional interpretation of scripture that does not clash with modern science instead of fundamentalism in an institution that has a sense of time and history.

so...you agree with me?

[Menassa]

The offensiveness, I can feel it.

That wasn't meant as an offense, that was a praise.

Similar to the way Jesus praised the Canaanite woman... ah....

[The Realm of God]

They used that Gloria in the Anglican Church in Wales, just after the collect. That was in 2004 so I guess it wasn't an exclusively Catholic thing.

Your point though is sound, the people who try and make the Church more 'relevant' fail because they dumb it down, people don't want the church to be 'cool'. In the information age the Church will survive by being more intellectually and theologically aware to satisfy people's spiritual needs, possibly by returning to its traditional roots.

I'd agree. I think the churches have yet to realise the state that they're in - the issue is not to make its beliefs 'relevant' (a favourite of liberal Catholics), or to make 'relevant' public statements (a favourite of the Anglican Church - see Welby on bankers), or to make the liturgy 'relevant'. People aren't going to Mass/services because they either don't believe any more, or because they half-heartedly believe, or (if they do believe, to whatever extent) because they don't get the importance of Church attendance (which may have been as a result of liturgical 'updates'). The churches really ought to be turning their attention to making clear and reasonable cases for God's existence and the truth of Christianity more than anything, and to spreading information about their theology (starting with the basics). The public, generally, are clueless about Christian theology - it's easy to blame that on a secular media that's scarcely interested in religion (the Catholic Church has a remarkable and unparalleled ability to be misinterpreted on virtually everything it says), but frankly the churches aren't doing enough on public relations. On the one hand it's nice to see groups like Catholic Voices and uCatholic springing up, but on the other hand it's worrying that it has to take largely lay movements for these sort of things to spring up.

Before I studied Christianity, a process that led to my conversion. I knew nothing of it, school RE lessons showed pictures of baptism and confirmation and explained it through the lense of rites of passage. My parents were irreligious and my friends rarely ever went to church, I was devoid of spirituality. Holidays to rural France and a town in Turkey gave me my first experience observing people living religious lives and this intrigued me. At my current age now I can see that spirituality hasn't gone, people just aren't informed about religions and therefore discount what they have to say, the modern outreach is about aesthetics.rather than spiritual fulfilment. I joked that they 'Replaced mysticism, worship and experience with some guy in an Allie G tracksuit rapping about Jesus, ." When the only thing the audience has been taught about him is that he has something to do with Christianity.

[The Realm of God]

People are pining for spirituality in this century, why do you think there is a huge amount of new religious movements and the New Age movement. It's because the Church doesn't resonate with them anymore, it has got to the point were the church has stagnated for so long and has ceased to become spiritual to many due to unsatisfying dogma and the rise of a judgemental blend of Christianity and Neoconservativism in the once 'cool' charismatic movement. I believe we are experiencing a new time of change in Christianity, the type that seems to happen every five hundred years.

People want to find spirituality in the age of anxiety and the Gospel is still relevant and always will be relevant. However the establishment does not realise that spirituality has moved away from one size fits all do this and that spirituality. Instead people are yearning for a personal experience of God and a stimulation of their intellect in an environment that recognises that everybody has gifts and callings, an environment that teachs a traditional interpretation of scripture that does not clash with modern science instead of fundamentalism in an institution that has a sense of time and history.

That was a very well written and informative post.

Thanks.

I believe an ancient spirituality with similarly old communial worship and a respect for personal piety, prayer and meditation with a mystical aim, is what our generation wants, they want to see God and be with God, not just take a sacrament and then conduct business over coffee. If this is not the case, why is Sufism so popular?

[Tarsonis Survivors]

That wasn't meant as an offense, that was a praise.

Similar to the way Jesus praised the Canaanite woman... ah....

Uh,...i guess...

[Menassa]

Similar to the way Jesus praised the Canaanite woman... ah....

Uh,...i guess...

So pretty ineffective, all and all.

[Great Terran Republic]

Anyone here follow Pastor. Arnold Murray?

[Great Terran Republic]

The Shepherds Chapel?

[Menassa]

The Shepherds Chapel?

Me?

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Uh,...i guess...

So pretty ineffective, all and all.

Whatever. Just know I love you

[Menassa]

So pretty ineffective, all and all.

Whatever. Just know I love you

Well, thank you for that.

[Great Terran Republic]

The Shepherds Chapel?

Me?

How about Kingdom Identity ministries?
http://www.kingidentity.com

[Tarsonis Survivors]

I don't know, updating certain practices to make it more culturally relevant, isn't inherently bad. Honest to God singing Hymns was like pulling teeth with me. Praise style songs resonate more with me than Hymns. It doesn't dumb anything down. And you're wrong, people do want church to be cool again.

People are pining for spirituality in this century, why do you think there is a huge amount of new religious movements and the New Age movement. It's because the Church doesn't resonate with them anymore, it has got to the point were the church has stagnated for so long and has ceased to become spiritual to many due to unsatisfying dogma and the rise of a judgemental blend of Christianity and Neoconservativism in the once 'cool' charismatic movement. I believe we are experiencing a new time of change in Christianity, the type that seems to happen every five hundred years.

People want to find spirituality in the age of anxiety and the Gospel is still relevant and always will be relevant. However the establishment does not realise that spirituality has moved away from one size fits all do this and that spirituality. Instead people are yearning for a personal experience of God and a stimulation of their intellect in an environment that recognises that everybody has gifts and callings, an environment that teachs a traditional interpretation of scripture that does not clash with modern science instead of fundamentalism in an institution that has a sense of time and history.

After re-reading this, how does this mean churches that try to be culturally relevant fail?