Christian Discussion Thread III

[Tarsonis Survivors]

LGBT Demographics are roughly 5%. I think they'll be fine.

Gaining new converts isn't easy if they disapprove of your doctrines. And they don't have to strictly be LGBT people either.

True, but Liberal and Libertarian Catholics do the enround, "I don't agree, but I just don't think the Government should legislate it" schtick. Don't underestimate the Church's Power!

[Blasveck]

Gaining new converts isn't easy if they disapprove of your doctrines. And they don't have to strictly be LGBT people either.

True, but Liberal and Libertarian Catholics do the enround, "I don't agree, but I just don't think the Government should legislate it" schtick. Don't underestimate the Church's Power!

I don't. I'd certainly like that power to be used for good, if anything.

While I understand the traditions and reasons behind building fantastic, gorgeous, opulent churches, it's be nice if a little bit more of that money wen to helping the downtrodden, y'know?

[Menassa]

Yes, but I am not quite sure what your point is on this? Or how it affects what the Scripture itself says about Mary. The lines "full of grace" and "blessed" both come directly from the Gospel of Luke. It is Church Tradition that Mary lived a life free of sin, as Christ came from her womb, how could God enter the world through a sinful person.

Well God never made an exception on the sin thing so he would have to had entered the world through a sinful person. And my argument is Mary was never holy.

You could then say that Jesus is born in sin no?

[Dangelia]

Damn! You guys gotta talk slower. Over 6 pages on good discussion. I feel left out.

[Irredento]

1.Where does it say in the Bible Mary is holy?.

Dude she's the Mother of Christ, how would she not be?

Heh, now there's something I'll never understand about the protestant mindset.

How can they possibly argue that the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of Christ, who gave birth to God himself on Earth is not holy?

As a Roman Catholic with a love of Marian devotions, I seriously just can't understand where they're coming from with that stuff.

"Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of mercy,
our life, our sweetness and our hope.
To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve:
to thee do we send up our sighs,
mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.
Turn then, most gracious Advocate,
thine eyes of mercy toward us,
and after this our exile,
show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary! Amen."

[Dangelia]

Dude she's the Mother of Christ, how would she not be?

Heh, now there's something I'll never understand about the protestant mindset.

How can they possibly argue that the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of Christ, who gave birth to God himself on Earth is not holy?

As a Roman Catholic with a love of Marian devotions, I seriously just can't understand where they're coming from with that stuff.

"Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of mercy,
our life, our sweetness and our hope.
To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve:
to thee do we send up our sighs,
mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.
Turn then, most gracious Advocate,
thine eyes of mercy toward us,
and after this our exile,
show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary! Amen."

It's because the Protestant word for 'veneration' is 'worship'.

[Athartha]

It is not something I would say one should be ashamed of. However, unless you are in immediate danger of dying, I would say it is not something to fear. You may be able to begin attending confession now (allowing for you to die in a state of reconciliation outside of the Church), if you were not aware of this.

I wasn't, but that's good to know. And I wouldn't say I'm in immediate threat of death, just as a Veteran, you could say I'm all to aware of how fragile life can be.

It is up to the discretion of your parish priest. You will have to demonstrate a knowledge of the sacrament of confession, and explain why it is you wish to attend confession (for you, it would be you are intending to take RCIA and would like to be able to confess your sins now). You, of all people, are aware of how fragile life is. But I also believe God would not allow for you to die before your time, and would not allow for you to die before being a member of the Church.

Yes, but I am not quite sure what your point is on this? Or how it affects what the Scripture itself says about Mary. The lines "full of grace" and "blessed" both come directly from the Gospel of Luke. It is Church Tradition that Mary lived a life free of sin, as Christ came from her womb, how could God enter the world through a sinful person.

Well God never made an exception on the sin thing so he would have to had entered the world through a sinful person. And my argument is Mary was never holy.

The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain— the essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary, upon her conception and birth, was preserved from these defects by the very grace of God; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings. This can be seen in the angel Gabriel's greeting to her in Luke 1:28, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you." The phrase "full of grace" is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene, which therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary. That is, she is full of God's Grace. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle meaning "to fill or endow with grace." It is the Catholic belief that she held this grace her entire life, rather than simply at birth, otherwise it is not how Gabriel would have greeted her.

It is not something I would say one should be ashamed of. However, unless you are in immediate danger of dying, I would say it is not something to fear. You may be able to begin attending confession now (allowing for you to die in a state of reconciliation outside of the Church), if you were not aware of this.

Why can a person not just ask God for forgiveness and not go through a priest? Isn't that why Jesus died?

All pardon for sins ultimately comes from Christ’s death and completion of his work. This is exemplified in baptism, the washing away of original sin and all sins committed prior to baptism. However, sins can, and will be, committed after baptism, and therefore requires a different sacrament. This is the act of penance, done through confession. Christ forgave many of their sins in their lifetime, gave this power to other men so the Church, which is considered a continuation of his presence (Matt. 28:20), and through this continuation men of this church were able to, and are able to, forgive the generations of Christ's death. Through apostolic succession this power has continued. If God has already forgiven all of a man’s sins, or will forgive them all, past and future, upon a single act of repentance, then it makes little sense to tell the apostles they have been given the power to "retain" sins, since forgiveness would be all-or-nothing and nothing could be "retained." This means a continued act of repentance is required for sins committed, and those who can give this repentance is the Clergy of the Church.

[Menassa]

Damn! You guys gotta talk slower. Over 6 pages on good discussion. I feel left out.

Back track, I've actually responded to you.

[Dangelia]

I wasn't, but that's good to know. And I wouldn't say I'm in immediate threat of death, just as a Veteran, you could say I'm all to aware of how fragile life can be.

It is up to the discretion of your parish priest. You will have to demonstrate a knowledge of the sacrament of confession, and explain why it is you wish to attend confession (for you, it would be you are intending to take RCIA and would like to be able to confess your sins now). You, of all people, are aware of how fragile life is. But I also believe God would not allow for you to die before your time, and would not allow for you to die before being a member of the Church.

Well God never made an exception on the sin thing so he would have to had entered the world through a sinful person. And my argument is Mary was never holy.

The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain— the essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary, upon her conception and birth, was preserved from these defects by the very grace of God; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings. This can be seen in the angel Gabriel's greeting to her in Luke 1:28, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you." The phrase "full of grace" is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene, which therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary. That is, she is full of God's Grace. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle meaning "to fill or endow with grace." It is the Catholic belief that she held this grace her entire life, rather than simply at birth, otherwise it is not how Gabriel would have greeted her.

Why can a person not just ask God for forgiveness and not go through a priest? Isn't that why Jesus died?

All pardon for sins ultimately comes from Christ’s death and completion of his work. This is exemplified in baptism, the washing away of original sin and all sins committed prior to baptism. However, sins can, and will be, committed after baptism, and therefore requires a different sacrament. This is the act of penance, done through confession. Christ forgave many of their sins in their lifetime, gave this power to other men so the Church, which is considered a continuation of his presence (Matt. 28:20), and through this continuation men of this church were able to, and are able to, forgive the generations of Christ's death. Through apostolic succession this power has continued. If God has already forgiven all of a man’s sins, or will forgive them all, past and future, upon a single act of repentance, then it makes little sense to tell the apostles they have been given the power to "retain" sins, since forgiveness would be all-or-nothing and nothing could be "retained." This means a continued act of repentance is required for sins committed, and those who can give this repentance is the Clergy of the Church.

Now the immaculate conceptions is blatantly false based on a misconception on what original sin is.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

True, but Liberal and Libertarian Catholics do the enround, "I don't agree, but I just don't think the Government should legislate it" schtick. Don't underestimate the Church's Power!

I don't. I'd certainly like that power to be used for good, if anything.

While I understand the traditions and reasons behind building fantastic, gorgeous, opulent churches, it's be nice if a little bit more of that money wen to helping the downtrodden, y'know?

You're not the first to make that criticism. *Secretly destroys the CDT 2 Thread*

[Menassa]

I don't. I'd certainly like that power to be used for good, if anything.

While I understand the traditions and reasons behind building fantastic, gorgeous, opulent churches, it's be nice if a little bit more of that money wen to helping the downtrodden, y'know?

You're not the first to make that criticism. *Secretly destroys the CDT 2 Thread*

Yeah... yeah... we've all said things that we don't agree with now...

[Tarsonis Survivors]

I wasn't, but that's good to know. And I wouldn't say I'm in immediate threat of death, just as a Veteran, you could say I'm all to aware of how fragile life can be.

It is up to the discretion of your parish priest. You will have to demonstrate a knowledge of the sacrament of confession, and explain why it is you wish to attend confession (for you, it would be you are intending to take RCIA and would like to be able to confess your sins now). You, of all people, are aware of how fragile life is. But I also believe God would not allow for you to die before your time, and would not allow for you to die before being a member of the Church.

Thank you, Father. That is comforting to hear.

[Blasveck]

I don't. I'd certainly like that power to be used for good, if anything.

While I understand the traditions and reasons behind building fantastic, gorgeous, opulent churches, it's be nice if a little bit more of that money wen to helping the downtrodden, y'know?

You're not the first to make that criticism. *Secretly destroys the CDT 2 Thread*

I realize this.

Just about every criticism has been posited at one point or another.

[Nuverikstan]

I wasn't, but that's good to know. And I wouldn't say I'm in immediate threat of death, just as a Veteran, you could say I'm all to aware of how fragile life can be.

It is up to the discretion of your parish priest. You will have to demonstrate a knowledge of the sacrament of confession, and explain why it is you wish to attend confession (for you, it would be you are intending to take RCIA and would like to be able to confess your sins now). You, of all people, are aware of how fragile life is. But I also believe God would not allow for you to die before your time, and would not allow for you to die before being a member of the Church.

Well God never made an exception on the sin thing so he would have to had entered the world through a sinful person. And my argument is Mary was never holy.

The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain— the essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary, upon her conception and birth, was preserved from these defects by the very grace of God; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings. This can be seen in the angel Gabriel's greeting to her in Luke 1:28, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you." The phrase "full of grace" is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene, which therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary. That is, she is full of God's Grace. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle meaning "to fill or endow with grace." It is the Catholic belief that she held this grace her entire life, rather than simply at birth, otherwise it is not how Gabriel would have greeted her.

Why can a person not just ask God for forgiveness and not go through a priest? Isn't that why Jesus died?

All pardon for sins ultimately comes from Christ’s death and completion of his work. This is exemplified in baptism, the washing away of original sin and all sins committed prior to baptism. However, sins can, and will be, committed after baptism, and therefore requires a different sacrament. This is the act of penance, done through confession. Christ forgave many of their sins in their lifetime, gave this power to other men so the Church, which is considered a continuation of his presence (Matt. 28:20), and through this continuation men of this church were able to, and are able to, forgive the generations of Christ's death. Through apostolic succession this power has continued. If God has already forgiven all of a man’s sins, or will forgive them all, past and future, upon a single act of repentance, then it makes little sense to tell the apostles they have been given the power to "retain" sins, since forgiveness would be all-or-nothing and nothing could be "retained." This means a continued act of repentance is required for sins committed, and those who can give this repentance is the Clergy of the Church.

Well over your reason on Mary having the grace of God. I heard from a Jewish rabbi turned Christian he said that Mary was a descendent of David and that is why she was chosen. Now Joseph also was, but Christ had to be born of the line of David and being born from Mary is the most accurate. And to your second thing why does he have to wait until next Easter to be baptized? We are already in enough arguments so I won't start the fight over why you guys believe you must be baptized to be saved.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

It is up to the discretion of your parish priest. You will have to demonstrate a knowledge of the sacrament of confession, and explain why it is you wish to attend confession (for you, it would be you are intending to take RCIA and would like to be able to confess your sins now). You, of all people, are aware of how fragile life is. But I also believe God would not allow for you to die before your time, and would not allow for you to die before being a member of the Church.

The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain— the essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary, upon her conception and birth, was preserved from these defects by the very grace of God; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings. This can be seen in the angel Gabriel's greeting to her in Luke 1:28, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you." The phrase "full of grace" is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene, which therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary. That is, she is full of God's Grace. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle meaning "to fill or endow with grace." It is the Catholic belief that she held this grace her entire life, rather than simply at birth, otherwise it is not how Gabriel would have greeted her.
All pardon for sins ultimately comes from Christ’s death and completion of his work. This is exemplified in baptism, the washing away of original sin and all sins committed prior to baptism. However, sins can, and will be, committed after baptism, and therefore requires a different sacrament. This is the act of penance, done through confession. Christ forgave many of their sins in their lifetime, gave this power to other men so the Church, which is considered a continuation of his presence (Matt. 28:20), and through this continuation men of this church were able to, and are able to, forgive the generations of Christ's death. Through apostolic succession this power has continued. If God has already forgiven all of a man’s sins, or will forgive them all, past and future, upon a single act of repentance, then it makes little sense to tell the apostles they have been given the power to "retain" sins, since forgiveness would be all-or-nothing and nothing could be "retained." This means a continued act of repentance is required for sins committed, and those who can give this repentance is the Clergy of the Church.

Well over your reason on Mary having the grace of God. I heard from a Jewish rabbi turned Christian he said that Mary was a descendent of David and that is why she was chosen. Now Joseph also was, but Christ had to be born of the line of David and being born from Mary is the most accurate. And to your second thing why does he have to wait until next Easter to be baptized? We are already in enough arguments so I won't start the fight over why you guys believe you must be baptized to be saved.

You can only join the Church at Easter.

[Menassa]

It is up to the discretion of your parish priest. You will have to demonstrate a knowledge of the sacrament of confession, and explain why it is you wish to attend confession (for you, it would be you are intending to take RCIA and would like to be able to confess your sins now). You, of all people, are aware of how fragile life is. But I also believe God would not allow for you to die before your time, and would not allow for you to die before being a member of the Church.

The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain— the essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary, upon her conception and birth, was preserved from these defects by the very grace of God; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings. This can be seen in the angel Gabriel's greeting to her in Luke 1:28, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you." The phrase "full of grace" is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene, which therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary. That is, she is full of God's Grace. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle meaning "to fill or endow with grace." It is the Catholic belief that she held this grace her entire life, rather than simply at birth, otherwise it is not how Gabriel would have greeted her.
All pardon for sins ultimately comes from Christ’s death and completion of his work. This is exemplified in baptism, the washing away of original sin and all sins committed prior to baptism. However, sins can, and will be, committed after baptism, and therefore requires a different sacrament. This is the act of penance, done through confession. Christ forgave many of their sins in their lifetime, gave this power to other men so the Church, which is considered a continuation of his presence (Matt. 28:20), and through this continuation men of this church were able to, and are able to, forgive the generations of Christ's death. Through apostolic succession this power has continued. If God has already forgiven all of a man’s sins, or will forgive them all, past and future, upon a single act of repentance, then it makes little sense to tell the apostles they have been given the power to "retain" sins, since forgiveness would be all-or-nothing and nothing could be "retained." This means a continued act of repentance is required for sins committed, and those who can give this repentance is the Clergy of the Church.

Well over your reason on Mary having the grace of God. I heard from a Jewish rabbi turned Christian he said that Mary was a descendent of David and that is why she was chosen. Now Joseph also was, but Christ had to be born of the line of David and being born from Mary is the most accurate. And to your second thing why does he have to wait until next Easter to be baptized? We are already in enough arguments so I won't start the fight over why you guys believe you must be baptized to be saved.

It doesn't really matter if Mary was a descendant of David or a descendant of Menassah, since Tribal lineage is passed via the father.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Well over your reason on Mary having the grace of God. I heard from a Jewish rabbi turned Christian he said that Mary was a descendent of David and that is why she was chosen. Now Joseph also was, but Christ had to be born of the line of David and being born from Mary is the most accurate. And to your second thing why does he have to wait until next Easter to be baptized? We are already in enough arguments so I won't start the fight over why you guys believe you must be baptized to be saved.

It doesn't really matter if Mary was a descendant of David or a descendant of Menassah, since Tribal lineage is passed via the father.

Well his father was God, therefore his lineage best lineage. Much Wow.

[Menassa]

It doesn't really matter if Mary was a descendant of David or a descendant of Menassah, since Tribal lineage is passed via the father.

Well his father was God, therefore his lineage best lineage. Much Wow.

That's a viable explanation, above that he is of the tribe of David... I mean... as Paul said:

Titus 3:9
But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless

Much wow?

[Nuverikstan]

Well over your reason on Mary having the grace of God. I heard from a Jewish rabbi turned Christian he said that Mary was a descendent of David and that is why she was chosen. Now Joseph also was, but Christ had to be born of the line of David and being born from Mary is the most accurate. And to your second thing why does he have to wait until next Easter to be baptized? We are already in enough arguments so I won't start the fight over why you guys believe you must be baptized to be saved.

You can only join the Church at Easter.

Catholics are weird. That is all I can say at this post.

[Nuverikstan]

Well his father was God, therefore his lineage best lineage. Much Wow.

That's a viable explanation, above that he is of the tribe of David... I mean... as Paul said:

Titus 3:9
But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless

Much wow?

Much wow is an American thing. Usually followed with a picture of a dog.

[Menassa]

That's a viable explanation, above that he is of the tribe of David... I mean... as Paul said:

Titus 3:9
But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless

Much wow?

Much wow is an American thing. Usually followed with a picture of a dog.

Are you not American?

[Nuverikstan]

Much wow is an American thing. Usually followed with a picture of a dog.

Are you not American?

I am a Texan.

[Menassa]

Are you not American?

I am a Texan.

So why did you specify American?

[Tarsonis Survivors]

I am a Texan.

So why did you specify American?

It's not an American Thing, it's an internet meme.

[Nuverikstan]

I am a Texan.

So why did you specify American?

I don't know. Just cause. And I am going to pretend for a moment Texas is it's own country. *Takes a whiff of the air* Ah smell that freedom. Now back to reality.