Christian Discussion Thread III

[Menassa]

For reference....

The non-Biblical archaeological evidence for the sieges of Jerusalem lies with the "First years of Nebuchadnezzar Chronicle" in the Babylonian Chronicles; lines 12 and 13 of the reverse record the conquest of the city, and deposing and replacement of the ruling king, after the first siege. There's no mention of the second siege or Nebuzaraddan.

The relevant part of Jeremiah 52 reads:



Or for Menassa's benefit:



Not offering an opinion on whether or not that settles your discussion either way - just noting the relevant existing evidence.

So the only "evidence" for Nebuzaradan exists within Jeremiah and other Biblical books?

Right, in my source, which I'm now assuming you didn't read said:



Second, the Talmud states that he slaughtered over 14,000 people just to stop blood from boiling.

Which was also in the source.

*sigh* You edited the source in after I replied, so I didn't see it let alone read it.

I'll take a look.

Edit: Now you can see why I said "that's not evidence".

Why not?

[Nationalist State of Knox]

So the only "evidence" for Nebuzaradan exists within Jeremiah and other Biblical books?


*sigh* You edited the source in after I replied, so I didn't see it let alone read it.

I'll take a look.

Edit: Now you can see why I said "that's not evidence".

Why not?

Because I hadn't seen the source, and assumed you meant "the Talmud" was your source.

[Menassa]

Why not?

Because I hadn't seen the source, and assumed you meant "the Talmud" was your source.

I believe the Talmud is a better source if there is lack of Babylonian sources.

[Nationalist State of Knox]

Because I hadn't seen the source, and assumed you meant "the Talmud" was your source.

I believe the Talmud is a better source if there is lack of Babylonian sources.

Possibly, I was referring to the vagueness of the "source", but I have since realised it was a misunderstanding.

Anyway, as far as I see, he could've been Nabûkudurriuṣur's chief court official, but there still remains no actual evidence that he slaughtered these 14,000 beyond the Biblical account.

And I take all "evidence" from the Bible with a pinch of salt, especially with its tendency to contort facts and state half-truths.

[Menassa]

I believe the Talmud is a better source if there is lack of Babylonian sources.

Possibly, I was referring to the vagueness of the "source", but I have since realised it was a misunderstanding.

Anyway, as far as I see, he could've been Nabûkudurriuṣur's chief court official, but there still remains no actual evidence that he slaughtered these 14,000 beyond the Biblical account.

And I take all "evidence" from the Bible with a pinch of salt, especially with its tendency to contort facts and state half-truths.

Ah, but it's not in the Bible that he slaughtered those people.

As well as Jeremiah 50... you think when he burned everything down he made sure everyone was out of their homes and safely aware from danger?

[The Archregimancy]

It's either the Talmud, or the Bible that calls him the Chief 'chef' which has been rendered to chief butcher, as he was captain of the guard.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0015_0_14645.html

I missed this earlier, for which I apologise.

I've done a little digging around (no archaeological pun intended), and Menassa is correct that the existence of Nabû-zēr-iddina is independently attested.

There's some ambiguity over the Hebrew translation of his Akkadian title, but he does actually seem to have literally held the position of chief cook and head of food services at the Babylonian court; 'chief butcher' is therefore not necessarily a metaphor, but rather a wholly literal translation.

That seems to be all we know about him.

Note that his culinary title need not lead to the assumption that he wouldn't have led the sack of Jerusalem; it wouldn't be unprecedented for the period for there to be a difference between his titular and practical roles within the Babylonian court.

I can't provide detailed citations as most of my academic books are still in boxes following my recent move (I used my academic library access here), but this might do for now, at least in terms of establishing Nabû-zēr-iddina's actual existence:

Christopher Johnston and Šamaš-šum-ukîn*
1901 A Letter of Šamaš-šum-ukîn to His Brother Sardanapalus. The American Journal of Semitic Languages and Literatures, 17(3): 146-150.


* Love that co-authorship credit!

[Conscentia]

So, new topic. Who's the whore of Babylon?

Rome?

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Belgium.

I'm thinking the Jews as they were conquered by Babylon...

they were conquered but the whore of Babylon is supposed to control the kings of the world. Despite anti-Zionist belief the Jews really don't. Honestly America sounds like a better candidate, sadly. But the Muslims fit the bill as well.

[Conscentia]

I'm thinking the Jews as they were conquered by Babylon...

they were conquered but the whore of Babylon is supposed to control the kings of the world. Despite anti-Zionist belief the Jews really don't. Honestly America sounds like a better candidate, sadly. But the Muslims fit the bill as well.

In what way?

[Tarsonis Survivors]

they were conquered but the whore of Babylon is supposed to control the kings of the world. Despite anti-Zionist belief the Jews really don't. Honestly America sounds like a better candidate, sadly. But the Muslims fit the bill as well.

In what way?

Well the whore of Babylon is supposed to represent a "fallen" church or Nation. America used to be very Culturally Christian but that is going away, and we have essentially influenced the the whole world. Conversely the Arabs have the world by the balls with their Oil. And they essentiallu an opposite church

[The Realm of God]

Well would you look at that, NSG is located in the weird world where Orthodoxy is almost as popular as Catholicism.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Well would you look at that, NSG is located in the weird world where Orthodoxy is almost as popular as Catholicism.

The RCC could also fit the description.

[Conscentia]

Well would you look at that, NSG is located in the weird world where Orthodoxy is almost as popular as Catholicism.

The RCC could also fit the description.

What?

[Conscentia]

In what way?

Well the whore of Babylon is supposed to represent a "fallen" church or Nation. America used to be very Culturally Christian but that is going away, and we have essentially influenced the the whole world. Conversely the Arabs have the world by the balls with their Oil. And they essentiallu an opposite church

No... just no.

[The Land of Truth]

Well the whore of Babylon is supposed to represent a "fallen" church or Nation. America used to be very Culturally Christian but that is going away, and we have essentially influenced the the whole world. Conversely the Arabs have the world by the balls with their Oil. And they essentiallu an opposite church

No... just no.

"America is the whore of Babylon!" tends to be a fun one amongst Christian fundamentalists even though it's theologically impossible.

[Tmutarakhan]

In an inscription from the time of Nebuchadnezzar II, the chief court officer is referred to as Nabû-zēr-iddina, whose official Babylonian title is rab nuḥatimmê (cf., talmudic Heb. naḥtom, "baker"). Scholars have thus identified this officer with Nebuzaradan, and assume that the biblical title is a translation of the Babylonian one. The Aramaic translations render the term as "chief butcher" or "slaughterer," and it is probable that this official belonged to the king's guards whose duty was the infliction of capital punishment.

Behold the Lord High Executioner, a personage of mighty rank and title,
Behold the Lord High Executioner, whose functions are particularly vital,
DEFER! DEFER! To the Lord High Executioner!
DEFER! DEFER! To the Lord, the Lord, the Lord, the Lord High Executioner!

[Distruzio]

Thank you but, no. The Orthodox Church does not agree with me. My Bishop and Priest assure me that I go too far and I concede that much. By engaging in these conversations I hope to break my bigotry.

It's worth stressing Distruzio's admission on that point.

The official Orthodox position, in so far as there's ever an official single Orthodox position on anything, is that Protestants are heretical Christians (though 'heretical' here is a technical theological term rather than one implying an imminent push to burn people at the stake, something which hasn't happened in an Orthodox jurisdiction since the 9th century, or thereabouts), not that they're not Christian at all. Also note that such is heterogeneity within Protestant beliefs, that it would be difficult to speak of a single Orthodox position towards all Protestantism anyway.

Distruzio is therefore not representing Orthodoxy here - as he fully concedes - but rather a personal opinion.

Indeed, you can find shades of opinion here within Orthodoxy; for example, on past posting record Distruzio likely thinks I'm too soft on Protestants, whereas I think he's far too optimistic about Orthodox-Catholic relations.

The following links may prove useful for a more official opinion on several of these points that allows people to bypass potentially flawed and biased lay opinions, such as those offered by myself an Distruzio:

http://oca.org/questions/otherconfessions
http://oca.org/questions/romancatholicism

Thank you, Arch. As ever your opinion on this subject (among others) is a breath of fresh air whereas mine becomes increasingly stale.

[Dangelia]

Well would you look at that, NSG is located in the weird world where Orthodoxy is almost as popular as Catholicism.

Orthodoxy is the second largest Christian denomination behind Catholicism. And there's even talks about the Ortiental Orthodox church and the Eastern Orthodoxy church schism being healed.

[Dangelia]

It's worth stressing Distruzio's admission on that point.

The official Orthodox position, in so far as there's ever an official single Orthodox position on anything, is that Protestants are heretical Christians (though 'heretical' here is a technical theological term rather than one implying an imminent push to burn people at the stake, something which hasn't happened in an Orthodox jurisdiction since the 9th century, or thereabouts), not that they're not Christian at all. Also note that such is heterogeneity within Protestant beliefs, that it would be difficult to speak of a single Orthodox position towards all Protestantism anyway.

Distruzio is therefore not representing Orthodoxy here - as he fully concedes - but rather a personal opinion.

Indeed, you can find shades of opinion here within Orthodoxy; for example, on past posting record Distruzio likely thinks I'm too soft on Protestants, whereas I think he's far too optimistic about Orthodox-Catholic relations.

The following links may prove useful for a more official opinion on several of these points that allows people to bypass potentially flawed and biased lay opinions, such as those offered by myself an Distruzio:

http://oca.org/questions/otherconfessions
http://oca.org/questions/romancatholicism

Thank you, Arch. As ever your opinion on this subject (among others) is a breath of fresh air whereas mine becomes increasingly stale.

I think Orthodox-Catholic relations will be healed. Truth always wins out int he end. But if the papacy was to join the Orthodox church this video explains what will happen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1An0kzGTnY

[Tarsonis Survivors]

The RCC could also fit the description.

What?

Why don't you read Rev 17.

That said I should make my position clear in that, I don't know. there are many things to that can fit into Revelation, and it's not worth really considering. The topic is just for a but of fun discussion. I don't want people getting offended.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Well the whore of Babylon is supposed to represent a "fallen" church or Nation. America used to be very Culturally Christian but that is going away, and we have essentially influenced the the whole world. Conversely the Arabs have the world by the balls with their Oil. And they essentiallu an opposite church

No... just no.

your comment is useless.

[The Tovian Way]

I think Orthodox-Catholic relations will be healed. Truth always wins out int he end.

I think the Orthodox Church also provides a much more likely source of reconciliation for Anglicanism (those parts of it that have maintained their Catholic identity) than does the Roman Catholic Church. We're already free of most of Rome's innovations, if we could just get our hierarchy in order, separate from the anything-goes ECUSA crowd and dump the filioque, we'd be pretty close, I'd say.

[Menassa]

In an inscription from the time of Nebuchadnezzar II, the chief court officer is referred to as Nabû-zēr-iddina, whose official Babylonian title is rab nuḥatimmê (cf., talmudic Heb. naḥtom, "baker"). Scholars have thus identified this officer with Nebuzaradan, and assume that the biblical title is a translation of the Babylonian one. The Aramaic translations render the term as "chief butcher" or "slaughterer," and it is probable that this official belonged to the king's guards whose duty was the infliction of capital punishment.

Behold the Lord High Executioner, a personage of mighty rank and title,
Behold the Lord High Executioner, whose functions are particularly vital,
DEFER! DEFER! To the Lord High Executioner!
DEFER! DEFER! To the Lord, the Lord, the Lord, the Lord High Executioner!

The references, I don't get them.

[Tlaceceyaya]

Behold the Lord High Executioner, a personage of mighty rank and title,
Behold the Lord High Executioner, whose functions are particularly vital,
DEFER! DEFER! To the Lord High Executioner!
DEFER! DEFER! To the Lord, the Lord, the Lord, the Lord High Executioner!

The references, I don't get them.

Then google them. It's a song.

[Menassa]

The references, I don't get them.

Then google them.

Are you getting straight A's in school, because you should be.