Christian Discussion Thread III

[Menassa]

So, new topic. Who's the whore of Babylon?

Belgium.

I'm thinking the Jews as they were conquered by Babylon...

[Nationalist State of Knox]

Belgium.

I'm thinking the Jews as they were conquered by Babylon...

It's what Yahweh wanted.

[Menassa]

I'm thinking the Jews as they were conquered by Babylon...

It's what Yahweh wanted.

To punish the wicked.

[Nationalist State of Knox]

It's what Yahweh wanted.

To punish the wicked.

But were they all wicked?

[Menassa]

To punish the wicked.

But were they all wicked?

Obviously not, we're still here.

[Nationalist State of Knox]

But were they all wicked?

Obviously not, we're still here.

Well, the punishment wasn't exactly death.

[Menassa]

Obviously not, we're still here.

Well, the punishment wasn't exactly death.

To the wicked it was.

[Nationalist State of Knox]

Well, the punishment wasn't exactly death.

To the wicked it was.

Come on, the Babylonians weren't that bad.

[Menassa]

To the wicked it was.

Come on, the Babylonians weren't that bad.

I believe they were... especially Nevuzarradan.

The Chief Butcher.

[Nationalist State of Knox]

Come on, the Babylonians weren't that bad.

I believe they were... especially Nevuzarradan.

The Chief Butcher.

Do you mean Nebuzaradan?

[Menassa]

I believe they were... especially Nevuzarradan.

The Chief Butcher.

Do you mean Nebuzaradan?

That's what I said, Nevuzarradan.

[Nationalist State of Knox]

Do you mean Nebuzaradan?

That's what I said, Nevuzarradan.

Your crazy transliterations confuse me.

Anyway, how was he "the Chief Butcher"?

[Menassa]

That's what I said, Nevuzarradan.

Your crazy transliterations confuse me.

Anyway, how was he "the Chief Butcher"?

It's either the Talmud, or the Bible that calls him the Chief 'chef' which has been rendered to chief butcher, as he was captain of the guard.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0015_0_14645.html

[Nationalist State of Knox]

Your crazy transliterations confuse me.

Anyway, how was he "the Chief Butcher"?

It's either the Talmud, or the Bible that calls him the Chief 'chef' which has been rendered to chief butcher, as he was captain of the guard.

So you don't have any evidence that he was all that bad?

[Menassa]

It's either the Talmud, or the Bible that calls him the Chief 'chef' which has been rendered to chief butcher, as he was captain of the guard.

So you don't have any evidence that he was all that bad?

(see above)

[Nationalist State of Knox]

So you don't have any evidence that he was all that bad?

(see above)

That's not evidence.

[Menassa]

(see above)

That's not evidence.

What's the problem with it?

[Nationalist State of Knox]

That's not evidence.

What's the problem with it?

There's no archeological, let alone scriptural evidence to suggest that this man was the "Chief Butcher".

[Menassa]

What's the problem with it?

There's no archeological, let alone scriptural evidence to suggest that this man was the "Chief Butcher".

Of course there's not evidence to suggest the atrocities he committed because to Babylon Israel wasn't anything special... it was another land conquered.

As well, Jeremiah 52:30 states that he was:

בִּשְׁנַת שָׁלֹשׁ וְעֶשְׂרִים לִנְבוּכַדְרֶאצַּר הֶגְלָה נְבוּזַרְאֲדָן רַב טַבָּחִים יְהוּדִים נֶפֶשׁ שְׁבַע מֵאוֹת אַרְבָּעִים וַחֲמִשָּׁה כָּל נֶפֶשׁ אַרְבַּעַת אֲלָפִים וְשֵׁשׁ מֵאוֹת:

In the twenty-third year of Nevuchadnezzar, Nevuzaradan the chief executioner exiled Jews seven hundred and forty-five souls, all the souls [totaled] four thousand and six hundred.

[Nationalist State of Knox]

There's no archeological, let alone scriptural evidence to suggest that this man was the "Chief Butcher".

Of course there's not evidence to suggest the atrocities he committed because to Babylon Israel wasn't anything special... it was another land conquered.

As well, Jeremiah 52:30 states that he was:

בִּשְׁנַת שָׁלֹשׁ וְעֶשְׂרִים לִנְבוּכַדְרֶאצַּר הֶגְלָה נְבוּזַרְאֲדָן רַב טַבָּחִים יְהוּדִים נֶפֶשׁ שְׁבַע מֵאוֹת אַרְבָּעִים וַחֲמִשָּׁה כָּל נֶפֶשׁ אַרְבַּעַת אֲלָפִים וְשֵׁשׁ מֵאוֹת:

In the twenty-third year of Nevuchadnezzar, Nevuzaradan the chief executioner exiled Jews seven hundred and forty-five souls, all the souls [totaled] four thousand and six hundred.

Where's your evidence he even existed?

Secondly, that says "exiled", not "executed" or "butchered". I don't see the problem with him.

[The Archregimancy]

What's the problem with it?

There's no archeological, let alone scriptural evidence to suggest that this man was the "Chief Butcher".

For reference....

The non-Biblical archaeological evidence for the sieges of Jerusalem lies with the "First years of Nebuchadnezzar Chronicle" in the Babylonian Chronicles; lines 12 and 13 of the reverse record the conquest of the city, and deposing and replacement of the ruling king, after the first siege. There's no mention of the second siege or Nebuzaraddan.

The relevant part of Jeremiah 52 reads:

12 On the tenth day of the fifth month, in the nineteenth year of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, Nebuzaradan commander of the imperial guard, who served the king of Babylon, came to Jerusalem. 13 He set fire to the temple of the Lord, the royal palace and all the houses of Jerusalem. Every important building he burned down. 14 The whole Babylonian army, under the commander of the imperial guard, broke down all the walls around Jerusalem. 15 Nebuzaradan the commander of the guard carried into exile some of the poorest people and those who remained in the city, along with the rest of the craftsmen[d] and those who had deserted to the king of Babylon. 16 But Nebuzaradan left behind the rest of the poorest people of the land to work the vineyards and fields.

Or for Menassa's benefit:

יב וּבַחֹדֶשׁ הַחֲמִישִׁי, בֶּעָשׂוֹר לַחֹדֶשׁ, הִיא שְׁנַת תְּשַׁע-עֶשְׂרֵה שָׁנָה, לַמֶּלֶךְ נְבוּכַדְרֶאצַּר מֶלֶךְ-בָּבֶל--בָּא, נְבוּזַרְאֲדָן רַב-טַבָּחִים, עָמַד לִפְנֵי מֶלֶךְ-בָּבֶל, בִּירוּשָׁלִָם.
יג וַיִּשְׂרֹף אֶת-בֵּית-יְהוָה, וְאֶת-בֵּית הַמֶּלֶךְ; וְאֵת כָּל-בָּתֵּי יְרוּשָׁלִַם וְאֶת-כָּל-בֵּית הַגָּדוֹל, שָׂרַף בָּאֵשׁ.
יד וְאֶת-כָּל-חֹמוֹת יְרוּשָׁלִַם, סָבִיב, נָתְצוּ כָּל-חֵיל כַּשְׂדִּים, אֲשֶׁר אֶת-רַב-טַבָּחִים.
טו וּמִדַּלּוֹת הָעָם וְאֶת-יֶתֶר הָעָם הַנִּשְׁאָרִים בָּעִיר, וְאֶת-הַנֹּפְלִים אֲשֶׁר נָפְלוּ אֶל-מֶלֶךְ בָּבֶל, וְאֵת, יֶתֶר הָאָמוֹן--הֶגְלָה, נְבוּזַרְאֲדָן רַב-טַבָּחִים.
טז וּמִדַּלּוֹת הָאָרֶץ--הִשְׁאִיר, נְבוּזַרְאֲדָן רַב-טַבָּחִים: לְכֹרְמִים, וּלְיֹגְבִים.

Not offering an opinion on whether or not that settles your discussion either way - just noting the relevant existing evidence.

[Menassa]

Of course there's not evidence to suggest the atrocities he committed because to Babylon Israel wasn't anything special... it was another land conquered.

As well, Jeremiah 52:30 states that he was:

בִּשְׁנַת שָׁלֹשׁ וְעֶשְׂרִים לִנְבוּכַדְרֶאצַּר הֶגְלָה נְבוּזַרְאֲדָן רַב טַבָּחִים יְהוּדִים נֶפֶשׁ שְׁבַע מֵאוֹת אַרְבָּעִים וַחֲמִשָּׁה כָּל נֶפֶשׁ אַרְבַּעַת אֲלָפִים וְשֵׁשׁ מֵאוֹת:

In the twenty-third year of Nevuchadnezzar, Nevuzaradan the chief executioner exiled Jews seven hundred and forty-five souls, all the souls [totaled] four thousand and six hundred.

Where's your evidence he even existed?

Secondly, that says "exiled", not "executed" or "butchered". I don't see the problem with him.

Right, in my source, which I'm now assuming you didn't read said:

In an inscription from the time of Nebuchadnezzar II, the chief court officer is referred to as Nabû-zēr-iddina, whose official Babylonian title is rab nuḥatimmê (cf., talmudic Heb. naḥtom, "baker"). Scholars have thus identified this officer with Nebuzaradan, and assume that the biblical title is a translation of the Babylonian one. The Aramaic translations render the term as "chief butcher" or "slaughterer," and it is probable that this official belonged to the king's guards whose duty was the infliction of capital punishment.

Second, the Talmud states that he slaughtered over 14,000 people just to stop blood from boiling.

Which was also in the source.

[Menassa]

And thank you Arch for the Hebrew.

[Nationalist State of Knox]

There's no archeological, let alone scriptural evidence to suggest that this man was the "Chief Butcher".

For reference....

The non-Biblical archaeological evidence for the sieges of Jerusalem lies with the "First years of Nebuchadnezzar Chronicle" in the Babylonian Chronicles; lines 12 and 13 of the reverse record the conquest of the city, and deposing and replacement of the ruling king, after the first siege. There's no mention of the second siege or Nebuzaraddan.

The relevant part of Jeremiah 52 reads:

12 On the tenth day of the fifth month, in the nineteenth year of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, Nebuzaradan commander of the imperial guard, who served the king of Babylon, came to Jerusalem. 13 He set fire to the temple of the Lord, the royal palace and all the houses of Jerusalem. Every important building he burned down. 14 The whole Babylonian army, under the commander of the imperial guard, broke down all the walls around Jerusalem. 15 Nebuzaradan the commander of the guard carried into exile some of the poorest people and those who remained in the city, along with the rest of the craftsmen[d] and those who had deserted to the king of Babylon. 16 But Nebuzaradan left behind the rest of the poorest people of the land to work the vineyards and fields.

Or for Menassa's benefit:

יב וּבַחֹדֶשׁ הַחֲמִישִׁי, בֶּעָשׂוֹר לַחֹדֶשׁ, הִיא שְׁנַת תְּשַׁע-עֶשְׂרֵה שָׁנָה, לַמֶּלֶךְ נְבוּכַדְרֶאצַּר מֶלֶךְ-בָּבֶל--בָּא, נְבוּזַרְאֲדָן רַב-טַבָּחִים, עָמַד לִפְנֵי מֶלֶךְ-בָּבֶל, בִּירוּשָׁלִָם.
יג וַיִּשְׂרֹף אֶת-בֵּית-יְהוָה, וְאֶת-בֵּית הַמֶּלֶךְ; וְאֵת כָּל-בָּתֵּי יְרוּשָׁלִַם וְאֶת-כָּל-בֵּית הַגָּדוֹל, שָׂרַף בָּאֵשׁ.
יד וְאֶת-כָּל-חֹמוֹת יְרוּשָׁלִַם, סָבִיב, נָתְצוּ כָּל-חֵיל כַּשְׂדִּים, אֲשֶׁר אֶת-רַב-טַבָּחִים.
טו וּמִדַּלּוֹת הָעָם וְאֶת-יֶתֶר הָעָם הַנִּשְׁאָרִים בָּעִיר, וְאֶת-הַנֹּפְלִים אֲשֶׁר נָפְלוּ אֶל-מֶלֶךְ בָּבֶל, וְאֵת, יֶתֶר הָאָמוֹן--הֶגְלָה, נְבוּזַרְאֲדָן רַב-טַבָּחִים.
טז וּמִדַּלּוֹת הָאָרֶץ--הִשְׁאִיר, נְבוּזַרְאֲדָן רַב-טַבָּחִים: לְכֹרְמִים, וּלְיֹגְבִים.

Not offering an opinion on whether or not that settles your discussion either way - just noting the relevant existing evidence.

So the only "evidence" for Nebuzaradan exists within Jeremiah and other Biblical books?

Where's your evidence he even existed?

Secondly, that says "exiled", not "executed" or "butchered". I don't see the problem with him.

Right, in my source, which I'm now assuming you didn't read said:

In an inscription from the time of Nebuchadnezzar II, the chief court officer is referred to as Nabû-zēr-iddina, whose official Babylonian title is rab nuḥatimmê (cf., talmudic Heb. naḥtom, "baker"). Scholars have thus identified this officer with Nebuzaradan, and assume that the biblical title is a translation of the Babylonian one. The Aramaic translations render the term as "chief butcher" or "slaughterer," and it is probable that this official belonged to the king's guards whose duty was the infliction of capital punishment.

Second, the Talmud states that he slaughtered over 14,000 people just to stop blood from boiling.

Which was also in the source.

*sigh* You edited the source in after I replied, so I didn't see it let alone read it.

I'll take a look.

Edit: Now you can see why I said "that's not evidence".

[Menassa]

Right, in my source, which I'm now assuming you didn't read said:



Second, the Talmud states that he slaughtered over 14,000 people just to stop blood from boiling.

Which was also in the source.

*sigh* You edited the source in after I replied, so I didn't see it let alone read it.

I'll take a look.

My apologies, when I said 'see above' I thought you had looked at the source...