Christian Discussion Thread III

[Benuty]

Richard Dawkins qualifies as an Anti-Theist: he asserts that Religion has done more harm than good.

Most Atheists say "We believe the True Dogma and you believe a False Dogma."

Most atheists say, "There is no god or gods." Nothing to do with dogma.

The funny thing about Dogma it has nothing to do with Dogs .

[Neo Rome Republic]

Most atheists say, "There is no god or gods." Nothing to do with dogma.

The funny thing about Dogma it has nothing to do with Dogs .

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Blessed are the Meek for they shall inherit the Earth = the submissive shall be buried 6 foot under the Land.

USA constitution, article 2 = blessed are the armed, for they shall own the Land at ground level.

Amendment 2*. Article 2 outlines the Executive Branch.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Richard Dawkins qualifies as an Anti-Theist: he asserts that Religion has done more harm than good.

Most Atheists say "We believe the True Dogma and you believe a False Dogma."

Most atheists say, "There is no god or gods." Nothing to do with dogma.

Those atheists have a strong faith.

[Grave_n_idle]

I agree. That's why most non-theists are atheists, rather than anti-theists. It's illogical to reject one kind belief that can only be justified by faith, and replace it with another equally strong statement of faith.

Richard Dawkins qualifies as an Anti-Theist: he asserts that Religion has done more harm than good.

Most Atheists say "We believe the True Dogma and you believe a False Dogma."

Richard Dawkins may well be an anti-theist, and he may also believe that religion does more harm than good (personally, I don't even know his personal beliefs, it doesn't make much difference to me) - but those two things are not the same.

They also don't represent other atheists (for example, I am pro-religion, despite being an atheist), because atheism doesn't require a prophet or a pope - it doesn't matter to me what an other atheist believes.

Most atheists say "I don't believe in a god or gods". That's not dogma - it's simply what is left when you don't believe something.

EDIT: But I think the discussion of whether atheism has dogma is getting off-topic.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Richard Dawkins qualifies as an Anti-Theist: he asserts that Religion has done more harm than good.

Most Atheists say "We believe the True Dogma and you believe a False Dogma."

Most atheists say, "There is no god or gods." Nothing to do with dogma.

Also, "there is no God" is by definition a dogmatic statement.

Dogma. (N) 2. An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true.

[Distruzio]

CTALNH... that's not what he is saying. Read the actual text (nevermind that the big bang was originally dismissed as "creationist nonsense" by the scientific community) he typed. He is saying that in order to deny the existence of God to the point that you actively advocate against any expression of faith in that existence one exhibits a certain faithful expression of opposition.

He is saying that by denying the existence of God you pronounce faith that God doesn't exist.

Atheists take the more appropriate approach to a lack of belief... their view is, essentially, that until the existence of God is proven I will conduct myself as though God does not exist.

Not even that, to be honest. In terms of a moral code and following scriptural lessons, for example, I (personally) live a life that would be described as being pretty hardcore Christian. Far more 'extreme' than most of the actual Christians I know. The only place where I diverge hard from that model, is in the actual believing-in-a-god thing.

My statement in no way suggests that the atheist is excluded from the ability and desire to lead a moral or otherwise just life.

[Conscentia]

Richard Dawkins qualifies as an Anti-Theist: he asserts that Religion has done more harm than good.

Most Atheists say "We believe the True Dogma and you believe a False Dogma."

Most atheists say, "There is no god or gods." Nothing to do with dogma.

Actually I think most atheists don't even label themselves as such. They simply do not care about religion enough to believe in anything called "God". They'd say "I never really considered it" or "who gives a ****?" depending on how polite they are.

[Conscentia]

[...](for example, I am pro-religion, despite being an atheist),
[...]

So... you're a Buddhist or part of another non-theistic religion? Otherwise this doesn't make sense to me.

[Grave_n_idle]

Not even that, to be honest. In terms of a moral code and following scriptural lessons, for example, I (personally) live a life that would be described as being pretty hardcore Christian. Far more 'extreme' than most of the actual Christians I know. The only place where I diverge hard from that model, is in the actual believing-in-a-god thing.

My statement in no way suggests that the atheist is excluded from the ability and desire to lead a moral or otherwise just life.

I'm just saying: "until the existence of God is proven I will conduct myself as though God does not exist..." isn't entirely accurate because there's no necessary relationship between conduct and religiousness or lack of it. i.e. in my own case, I arguably conduct myself as though a god DID exist, despite not believing in one.

Re-read it perhaps - I think you think I said something I didn't say.

[Grave_n_idle]

[...](for example, I am pro-religion, despite being an atheist),
[...]

So... you're a Buddhist or part of another non-theistic religion? Otherwise this doesn't make sense to me.

No, I'm pro-religion, in as much as I think it's an important social/cultural tool that serves a number of legitimate and important functions, and that - overall - it's a 'good thing' for the world.

But despite that - I can't personally bring myself to believe in any god(s).

Thus: Pro-religion atheist.

[The Scientific States]

I was talking with a friend yesterday who said people who aren't Christian cannot get to heaven. Though I don't believe in heaven, I do want to know what other Christians think, so I figured I'd ask this question here, "can non-Christians get to heaven?"

[Grave_n_idle]

I was talking with a friend yesterday who said people who aren't Christian cannot get to heaven. Though I don't believe in heaven, I do want to know what other Christians think, so I figured I'd ask this question here, "can non-Christians get to heaven?"

The totally scriptural answer is probably no.

e.g. Acts 4:12; Mark 16:16

So... the answer you'll get from Christians is reflective of the specific dogma of their particular denomination.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

I was talking with a friend yesterday who said people who aren't Christian cannot get to heaven. Though I don't believe in heaven, I do want to know what other Christians think, so I figured I'd ask this question here, "can non-Christians get to heaven?"

Catholics would say no, but also allow for God to make special exception. That's why we pray for the dead.

[Marigold Island]

It depends on the circumstances - at least from a Catholic standpoint. If one has never really learned of the Gospel (either because of age or environment) and lives a moral life seeking to know God as best as they are able, then it is possible they will be saved.

One can rightly presume that a baby who dies before baptism is probably in Heaven (belief in Limbo has waned considerably in favor of this view). There is also "baptism by desire" - meaning a non Christian who desires baptism but dies before it can be performed may also be saved. If a non-Christian wishes to convert and is killed for a Christian cause or by living a life of Christian virtue (is martyred), he may enter Heaven via "baptism by blood."

In Catholic theology, a lot of time has been spent trying to reconcile the notion of a merciful God with the rather strict commands He has given. The basic conclusion is that one can most easily and assuredly attain salvation through the Church and her sacraments -they offer a guarantee of sorts, but that God is not bound by the rules and can freely save anyone who might desire Him. When Jesus appeared to St Faustina, He described His mercy as unfathomable, a sea, a fountain, an abyss of mercy that cannot be contained.

[Distruzio]

My statement in no way suggests that the atheist is excluded from the ability and desire to lead a moral or otherwise just life.

I'm just saying: "until the existence of God is proven I will conduct myself as though God does not exist..." isn't entirely accurate because there's no necessary relationship between conduct and religiousness or lack of it. i.e. in my own case, I arguably conduct myself as though a god DID exist, despite not believing in one.

Re-read it perhaps - I think you think I said something I didn't say.

No. I didn't. I was just elaborating, GnI.

[Distruzio]

I was talking with a friend yesterday who said people who aren't Christian cannot get to heaven. Though I don't believe in heaven, I do want to know what other Christians think, so I figured I'd ask this question here, "can non-Christians get to heaven?"

Nonsense. Jesus isn't Christian. He's a Jew.

The Apostles weren't Christian, either.

No Christian could ever claim to know who gets to enjoy the presence of God because Christianity itself teaches that the Christian doesn't know if they're gonna get in. You know... being a sinner and all.

[Neoconstantius]

I was talking with a friend yesterday who said people who aren't Christian cannot get to heaven. Though I don't believe in heaven, I do want to know what other Christians think, so I figured I'd ask this question here, "can non-Christians get to heaven?"

An [Orthodox] priest once told me that everyone gets to Heaven, but some people get closer seats than others. Fairly certain that's not entirely dogmatically or theologically correct, but I personally believe in apocatastasis, the restoration of all creation to its original state, which was endorsed by multiple Church Fathers, most notably St. Gregory of Nyssa.

It seems the most prudent way to summarize the teaching of the Orthodox Church on this matter is that we may hope for universal reconciliation, but it is heretical to teach universal reconciliation. So. That's a very inconclusive answer to your question.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Only 144,000 people go to heaven. And those seats are filled, so we're boned.

[Albicia]

I was talking with a friend yesterday who said people who aren't Christian cannot get to heaven. Though I don't believe in heaven, I do want to know what other Christians think, so I figured I'd ask this question here, "can non-Christians get to heaven?"

Nonsense. Jesus isn't Christian. He's a Jew.

The Apostles weren't Christian, either.

No Christian could ever claim to know who gets to enjoy the presence of God because Christianity itself teaches that the Christian doesn't know if they're gonna get in. You know... being a sinner and all.

Culturally and religiously, Christ and His Apostles were Jewish. Religiously, they saw Jesus as the Curist and the Son of God, all the while trying to follow His teachings. So yes, they were Christians. Being a totally depraved sinner, I have no knowledge as to whether I will enter Heaven. However, I trust in Jesus' divine mercy, and know that through my baptism I have the opportunity to enter Heaven, unlike those poor souls who have renounced Him, or refused to accept Him.

[Benuty]

Only 144,000 people go to heaven. And those seats are filled, so we're boned.

I didn't realize you were a Jehovah's witness.

[New Bethlehem]

Nonsense. Jesus isn't Christian. He's a Jew.

The Apostles weren't Christian, either.

No Christian could ever claim to know who gets to enjoy the presence of God because Christianity itself teaches that the Christian doesn't know if they're gonna get in. You know... being a sinner and all.

Culturally and religiously, Christ and His Apostles were Jewish. Religiously, they saw Jesus as the Curist and the Son of God, all the while trying to follow His teachings. So yes, they were Christians. Being a totally depraved sinner, I have no knowledge as to whether I will enter Heaven. However, I trust in Jesus' divine mercy, and know that through my baptism I have the opportunity to enter Heaven, unlike those poor souls who have renounced Him, or refused to accept Him.

What denomination are you? I hope you understand it is faith alone that saves you. I will not deny that Baptism is extremely important for a Christian such as myself. However, it isn't your Baptism that saves you; it's Jesus' sacrifice. If you truly accept Jesus as your savior then you will be washed clean of sin. You should then be certain that you will enter Heaven.

[Distruzio]

Culturally and religiously, Christ and His Apostles were Jewish. Religiously, they saw Jesus as the Curist and the Son of God, all the while trying to follow His teachings. So yes, they were Christians. Being a totally depraved sinner, I have no knowledge as to whether I will enter Heaven. However, I trust in Jesus' divine mercy, and know that through my baptism I have the opportunity to enter Heaven, unlike those poor souls who have renounced Him, or refused to accept Him.

What denomination are you? I hope you understand it is faith alone that saves you. I will not deny that Baptism is extremely important for a Christian such as myself. However, it isn't your Baptism that saves you; it's Jesus' sacrifice. If you truly accept Jesus as your savior then you will be washed clean of sin. You should then be certain that you will enter Heaven.

Nonsense. It isn't the sacrifice of Jesus that saves the Christian. It's the sacrifice of the Christian that saves the Christian. Jesus' chosen role is that He shows us exactly what that sacrifice entails - complete faith in the Father and Holy Spirit to meet us wherever we should begin to waver in our commitment to make the sacrifice. Christianity isn't at all about letting God do all the work. It's about doing what work we can to merit healing (salvation) and trusting God to fill in any blanks (alongside showing us where we failed).

When we focus on the death of Christ (as the Protestants do) as the vehicle through which salvation is attained then we forget the impact His life has on us, individually. Jesus isn't dead. He didn't die for our sins. He died because of and from our sins. He lives for our sins. As in it is through our sinful nature that God shows us the road to perfection. We can only see ourselves healed by being confronted with the consequences of our frailties and failures.

Focusing on the death at the expense of the life and resurrection of Christ distracts from and, ultimately, repudiates this basic fact about salvation, healing, the Church, the individual Christian, and the role of God Himself. Moreover and perhaps most damningly, it creates the impression that where me may not need to do anything to merit salvation, we need not try to merit salvation. Salvation, in such a perspective, becomes a given. A fact of existence. Then the deluded individual convinced of their own superiority reevaluates salvation and their role in attaining it as something that they do for others. So we get silliness like Protestants announcing that they must "hate the sin but love the sinner" (as if the two can be separated - they can't) and that, in the interest of ultimate salvation, homosexuals should live a life excluded from God's great mercy for being homosexual. Focusing on the death of Christ creates an arbitrary and artificial dichotomy between life and death, between salvation and healing, between humanity and humane behavior, between the Christian and everyone else, between the individual and God.

It's foolishness and dangerous.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Only 144,000 people go to heaven. And those seats are filled, so we're boned.

I didn't realize you were a Jehovah's witness.

Sorry, I meant to say that God from his holy domain of Kados, will bequeath unto each of us one of the infinite celestial bodies, to shape according to our heart's desire.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

What denomination are you? I hope you understand it is faith alone that saves you. I will not deny that Baptism is extremely important for a Christian such as myself. However, it isn't your Baptism that saves you; it's Jesus' sacrifice. If you truly accept Jesus as your savior then you will be washed clean of sin. You should then be certain that you will enter Heaven.

Nonsense. It isn't the sacrifice of Jesus that saves the Christian. It's the sacrifice of the Christian that saves the Christian. Jesus' chosen role is that He shows us exactly what that sacrifice entails - complete faith in the Father and Holy Spirit to meet us wherever we should begin to waver in our commitment to make the sacrifice. Christianity isn't at all about letting God do all the work. It's about doing what work we can to merit healing (salvation) and trusting God to fill in any blanks (alongside showing us where we failed).

When we focus on the death of Christ (as the Protestants do) as the vehicle through which salvation is attained then we forget the impact His life has on us, individually. Jesus isn't dead. He didn't die for our sins. He died because of and from our sins. He lives for our sins. As in it is through our sinful nature that God shows us the road to perfection. We can only see ourselves healed by being confronted with the consequences of our frailties and failures.

Focusing on the death at the expense of the life and resurrection of Christ distracts from and, ultimately, repudiates this basic fact about salvation, healing, the Church, the individual Christian, and the role of God Himself. Moreover and perhaps most damningly, it creates the impression that where me may not need to do anything to merit salvation, we need not try to merit salvation. Salvation, in such a perspective, becomes a given. A fact of existence. Then the deluded individual convinced of their own superiority reevaluates salvation and their role in attaining it as something that they do for others. So we get silliness like Protestants announcing that they must "hate the sin but love the sinner" (as if the two can be separated - they can't) and that, in the interest of ultimate salvation, homosexuals should live a life excluded from God's great mercy for being homosexual. Focusing on the death of Christ creates an arbitrary and artificial dichotomy between life and death, between salvation and healing, between humanity and humane behavior, between the Christian and everyone else, between the individual and God.

It's foolishness and dangerous.

This is not entirely accurate. The death of Christ was more than just a symbolic act. Christ's death was a very real payment for sins. What it wasn't was a singular vessel of forgiveness. Forgiveness is an act of mercy bequeathed upon us by the Father, through the Son. Such forgiveness is not simply granted though, it takes great faith and repentance.