Christian Discussion Thread III

[Grave_n_idle]

It isn't. It's entirely inconsistent with Jesus' ministry:

Luke 12:20-34

"But God said unto him, [Thou] fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided? So [is] he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God. And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on. The life is more than meat, and the body [is more] than raiment. Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls? And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit? If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest? Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more [will he clothe] you, O ye of little faith? And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind. For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things. But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you. Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

Yeah it says do not concern yourself with getting rich =/= those who are rich are counted separate from the kingdom of heaven. There is no scriptural basis to support the concept that only poor people go to heaven.

He says to sell all you have. He says 'where your treasure is, there your heart will be also' - so if your treasure is temporal, your heart is temporally centered. He says that if you lay up treasure for yourself, you are not rich toward god.

He's pretty consistent that material riches are trappings of the flesh, not of the spirit. And you can't walk in both - you can't serve two masters.

Plus, of course, the verse you have already been objecting to, where he says quite explicitly that the rich will not get into heaven.

[Gordonisia]

Never knew there was a christian thread... Good to know there is one

So, im a pretty loose catholic, and I go to Baptist services too, i was wondering what most people think of that (denomination X going to a denomination Y's Service/mass)

I don't see the harm in it, so long as you're not breaking any rules within your denomination (e.g. a Catholic going to a Baptist service on Sunday instead of attending Mass)

[Grave_n_idle]

Why?

Tarsonis is actually being (erroneously) generous - Jesus specifically said that the rich love money (not 'tend to'): "For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

No, just because someone is wealthy doesn't mean they treasure money.

Again, that's not me you're arguing with - those are Jesus' words, not mine.

"For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also".

According to Jesus, if you have wealth, that's where your heart is.

[Vazdania]

No, just because someone is wealthy doesn't mean they treasure money.

Again, that's not me you're arguing with - those are Jesus' words, not mine.

"For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also".

According to Jesus, if you have wealth, that's where your heart is.

Much of my 'treasure' goes to the poor and to my family workers (outside of my Church Tithes)....my heart obviously is with the poor and with my workers

[Grave_n_idle]

Why?

Tarsonis is actually being (erroneously) generous - Jesus specifically said that the rich love money (not 'tend to'): "For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

Parable of the Talents disagrees with you.

First: Those words are not mine, they are attributed to Jesus.

Second: The parable of the talents doesn't disagree with them.

[Grave_n_idle]

Again, that's not me you're arguing with - those are Jesus' words, not mine.

"For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also".

According to Jesus, if you have wealth, that's where your heart is.

Much of my 'treasure' goes to the poor and to my family workers (outside of my Church Tithes)....my heart obviously is with the poor and with my workers

Good. It would be better if all of it went to the poor (and to your 'family workers', whatever that means), because then you would be doing what Jesus instructed you to do.

[Vazdania]

Parable of the Talents disagrees with you.

First: Those words are not mine, they are attributed to Jesus.

Second: The parable of the talents doesn't disagree with them.

The parable of the talents sides with the man who made the most money and places a sort of scorn on the man who had little money and didn't do anything with it.

[Vazdania]

Much of my 'treasure' goes to the poor and to my family workers (outside of my Church Tithes)....my heart obviously is with the poor and with my workers

Good. It would be better if all of it went to the poor (and to your 'family workers', whatever that means), because then you would be doing what Jesus instructed you to do.

Family workers=those employed by my family.

It is better that We stay rich in order to continue to aid those who are poor.

[Grave_n_idle]

First: Those words are not mine, they are attributed to Jesus.

Second: The parable of the talents doesn't disagree with them.

The parable of the talents sides with the man who made the most money and places a sort of scorn on the man who had little money and didn't do anything with it.

The parable of the talents follows on from the parable of the ten virgins (and is even linked by common language), and clearly has nothing to do with actual temporal wealth. The clue is in the word 'parable', by the way.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Yeah it says do not concern yourself with getting rich =/= those who are rich are counted separate from the kingdom of heaven. There is no scriptural basis to support the concept that only poor people go to heaven.

He says to sell all you have. He says 'where your treasure is, there your heart will be also' - so if your treasure is temporal, your heart is temporally centered. He says that if you lay up treasure for yourself, you are not rich toward god.

He's pretty consistent that material riches are trappings of the flesh, not of the spirit. And you can't walk in both - you can't serve two masters.

Plus, of course, the verse you have already been objecting to, where he says quite explicitly that the rich will not get into heaven.

First of all, if you want to us KJV please use NKJV, it's just easier to read and saves me from having to look it up myself.

2. Yes, material things are trappings of the flesh, but having material things doesn't mean they are your master. A man can have lots of money and be wealthy, but serve only one master God.

3. No it doesn't. Jesus uses hyperbole (as he has done in other verses) to express how difficult it is for a wealthy person to enter the kingdom of heaven, because money tends to be their master. Though it is not always so.

Jesus’ answer is the basis of the gospel: "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God" (Matthew 19:26). Men are saved through God’s gifts of grace, mercy, and faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). Nothing we do earns salvation for us. It is the poor in spirit who inherit the kingdom of God (Matthew 5:3), those who recognize their spiritual poverty and their utter inability to do anything to justify themselves to a holy God. The rich man so often is blind to his spiritual poverty because he is proud of his accomplishments and has contented himself with his wealth. He is as likely to humble himself before God as a camel is to crawl through the eye of a needle.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/camel-eye-n ... z2Ytk4THG3

[Grave_n_idle]

Good. It would be better if all of it went to the poor (and to your 'family workers', whatever that means), because then you would be doing what Jesus instructed you to do.

Family workers=those employed by my family.

It is better that We stay rich in order to continue to aid those who are poor.

It's very selfless of you, certainly. Jesus says there is no greater love than what you are doing.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Family workers=those employed by my family.

It is better that We stay rich in order to continue to aid those who are poor.

It's very selfless of you, certainly. Jesus says there is no greater love than what you are doing.

He did, but he didn't say it was a requirement.

[Tlaceceyaya]

Family workers=those employed by my family.

It is better that We stay rich in order to continue to aid those who are poor.

It's very selfless of you, certainly. Jesus says there is no greater love than what you are doing.

Actually, he says that it's laying down your life for your friend.

[Vazdania]

Family workers=those employed by my family.

It is better that We stay rich in order to continue to aid those who are poor.

It's very selfless of you, certainly. Jesus says there is no greater love than what you are doing.

See this is where your argument breaks down! if the rich stay rich in order to help the poor, then why exactly should they sell all their things so that they themselves become poor?

[Tarsonis Survivors]

The only thing to suggest that the rich must part with their money in order to enter heaven, is the fact that you can't carry money with you into the afterlife.

[Grave_n_idle]

First of all, if you want to us KJV please use NKJV, it's just easier to read and saves me from having to look it up myself.

I don't find the KJV at all hard to read. What did you find hard to read? I'll explain it for you.

2. Yes, material things are trappings of the flesh, but having material things doesn't mean they are your master. A man can have lots of money and be wealthy, but serve only one master God.

Not according to Jesus. Matthew 6:24 "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

3. No it doesn't. Jesus uses hyperbole (as he has done in other verses) to express how difficult it is for a wealthy person to enter the kingdom of heaven, because money tends to be their master.

Jesus wasn't using hyperbole - he was quite clearly saying that it's easier to do something impossible (of which he gave an example, using a common rhetoric device) than it is to be rich, and achieve heaven.

Though it is not always so.

Again, not according to Jesus. Matthew 6:21 "For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

[Grave_n_idle]

It's very selfless of you, certainly. Jesus says there is no greater love than what you are doing.

See this is where your argument breaks down! if the rich stay rich in order to help the poor, then why exactly should they sell all their things so that they themselves become poor?

Self-interest.

You are selflessly condemning yourself for all eternity, to save others, which is laudable - Jesus said there is no greater love.

On the other hand, if you selfishly wanted to enter the kingdom of heaven, yourself - you'd have to do as Jesus instructed.

[Grave_n_idle]

It's very selfless of you, certainly. Jesus says there is no greater love than what you are doing.

Actually, he says that it's laying down your life for your friend.

Yes.

[Vazdania]

See this is where your argument breaks down! if the rich stay rich in order to help the poor, then why exactly should they sell all their things so that they themselves become poor?

Self-interest.

You are selflessly condemning yourself for all eternity, to save others, which is laudable - Jesus said there is no greater love.

On the other hand, if you selfishly wanted to enter the kingdom of heaven, yourself - you'd have to do as Jesus instructed.

What of John 3:16, "...WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM, SHALL NOT PERISH BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE"

[Grave_n_idle]

The only thing to suggest that the rich must part with their money in order to enter heaven, is the fact that you can't carry money with you into the afterlife.

Well, that and the fact that Jesus explicitly stated that it's impossible for a rich man to get into heaven, that you can either love money or god, and that you can't serve two masters - so you're either serving God or Mammon.

So, yeah - apart from all the times Jesus says you have to impoverish yourself, specifically condemns the acquisition of material wealth, and says that a rich man can't enter the kingdom of heaven - apart from that, the only thing to suggest the rich must part with their money is the transitory nature of material wealth.

[Tlaceceyaya]

Self-interest.

You are selflessly condemning yourself for all eternity, to save others, which is laudable - Jesus said there is no greater love.

On the other hand, if you selfishly wanted to enter the kingdom of heaven, yourself - you'd have to do as Jesus instructed.

What of John 3:16, "...WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM, SHALL NOT PERISH BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE"

So even the worst sinner who believes in jesus can have everlasting life?

[Vazdania]

What of John 3:16, "...WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM, SHALL NOT PERISH BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE"

So even the worst sinner who believes in jesus can have everlasting life?

WHOSOEVER
Yes

[Grave_n_idle]

Self-interest.

You are selflessly condemning yourself for all eternity, to save others, which is laudable - Jesus said there is no greater love.

On the other hand, if you selfishly wanted to enter the kingdom of heaven, yourself - you'd have to do as Jesus instructed.

What of John 3:16, "...WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM, SHALL NOT PERISH BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE"

What of it?

Faith without works is dead. Which isn't to say it's the works that save you - but if you're not doing the works, your faith is a lie.

So, sure - whosoever believes in him shall not perish. But if you really believed in him, you'd be doing his works.

If you're rich, you don't really have faith.

[Grave_n_idle]

What of John 3:16, "...WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM, SHALL NOT PERISH BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE"

So even the worst sinner who believes in jesus can have everlasting life?

Under the principle of vicarious substitution, theoretically, yes.

Although, belief isn't hollow. Lip-service might fool your friends, but not your god.

[Vazdania]

What of John 3:16, "...WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM, SHALL NOT PERISH BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE"

What of it?

Faith without works is dead. Which isn't to say it's the works that save you - but if you're not doing the works, your faith is a lie.

So, sure - whosoever believes in him shall not perish. But if you really believed in him, you'd be doing his works.

If you're rich, you don't really have faith.

I....ME VAZDANIA, do not have faith????? mhm. Lets go talk to everybody else on Nationstates about that.