Christian Discussion Thread III

[Agritum]

It might be helpful if you offered specifics and sources.

You do have a habit of making sweeping generalisations about Christian history and Christianity, so actually backing up some of these discussion points with specific citations and quotes could be helpful.

And I'm really not sure as to whether prohibitions on tobacco and smoking are necessarily wholly a religious issue; not unless you think the existing smoking bans in public spaces in much of the industrialised west (and here in Dubai, for that matter) are primarily motivated by theological objections.

Many people like to tack religion to secular issues.

Unfortunately.

[Socialist Czechia]

So what about tobacco?

I was quite surprised when I found out, that Church tried to ban tobacco, then regulate it at very least, and tobacco users were often punished, even by penalty of death in some more rigid places like Russia (especially by very conservative 'Old Believers').
It mostly changed in 17th and 18th century when tobacco became too valuable product to try ban it.

It might be helpful if you offered specifics and sources.

You do have a habit of making sweeping generalisations about Christian history and Christianity, so actually backing up some of these discussion points with specific citations and quotes could be helpful.

And I'm really not sure as to whether prohibitions on tobacco and smoking are necessarily wholly a religious issue; not unless you think the existing smoking bans in public spaces in much of the industrialised west (and here in Dubai, for that matter) are primarily motivated by theological objections.

Well, I wrote long essays about tobacco using, so I guess I can offer some particular literature about connections between religions (christianity included) and tobacco.

Burns, Eric. 2007. The Smoke of The Gods. Philadelphia: Temple University Press.
Breen, T. H. 2001. Tobacco Culture. Princeton, Woodstock: Princeton University Press.
Goodman, Jordan – Norton, Marcy – Parascandola, Mark (eds.). 2005. Tobacco in History and Culture. Detroit: Thomson Gale.
Romaniello, Matthew P. – Starks, Tricia (eds.). 2009. Tobacco in Russian History and Culture. New York, Abingdon: Routledge.
Shechter, Relli. 2006. Smoking, Culture and Economy in the Middle East. London, New York: I.B.Tauris.

If you don't wanna read it now, there are plenty links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_on_smoking
Yup, Wiki always saves the day
http://www.churchesofchrist.net/authors/Grady_Scott/tobacco.htm
Looks like some Christian tried to find out if Tobacco is sin.

[Socialist Czechia]

It might be helpful if you offered specifics and sources.

You do have a habit of making sweeping generalisations about Christian history and Christianity, so actually backing up some of these discussion points with specific citations and quotes could be helpful.

And I'm really not sure as to whether prohibitions on tobacco and smoking are necessarily wholly a religious issue; not unless you think the existing smoking bans in public spaces in much of the industrialised west (and here in Dubai, for that matter) are primarily motivated by theological objections.

Many people like to tack religion to secular issues.

Everything is secular issue and nothing is sacred or taboo. Period.

[Murkwood]

Many people like to tack religion to secular issues.

Everything is secular issue and nothing is sacred or taboo. Period.

Not everything is secular.

[Socialist Czechia]

Everything is secular issue and nothing is sacred or taboo. Period.

Not everything is secular.

Secularity (adjective form secular,[1] from Latin saecularis meaning "worldly" or "temporal")

Everything is wordly and temporal. Nothing is forever and what you can't see doesn't exist. Ergo everything is secular.

[The Archregimancy]

If you don't wanna read it now, there are plenty links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_on_smoking
Yup, Wiki always saves the day
http://www.churchesofchrist.net/authors/Grady_Scott/tobacco.htm
Looks like some Christian tried to find out if Tobacco is sin.

The second link appears to be from a fringe evangelical Protestant group, so is hardly representative of either modern or historical Christianity.

The first link - which I found for myself, thank you - acknowledges a broad range of Christian opinions on the consumption of tobacco, specifically stating along the way that it's not prohibited by the Catholic Church, and that while some Orthodox jurisdictions frown on smoking, there's no canonical ban on the practice. Observing that some Christian groups aren't pro-smoking isn't the same thing as observing that Christianity is inherently anti-smoking - or that being anti-smoking is in fact itself inherently undesirable given common modern attitudes towards the restriction of the practice in public.

And, again, it's not as if most modern prohibitions on and restrictions of smoking are theologically driven. Taking a quote from the Wiki article in question, I dare say most non-smokers would agree that "Smoking tobacco is a disgusting, filthy, addictive habit that turns the mouth of the smoker into an ashtray. It not only poisons the body of the smoker but pollutes the air that others around the smoker breathe." Is that in any way a particularly controversial statement among atheist non-smokers?

So you might want to clarify the point you're trying to make here.

[The Blaatschapen]

I want to make a second coming joke here, since the thread is almost at its end, and we'll gonna have to reboot it.

But then I noticed that this is incarnation number three already

[Socialist Czechia]

So you might want to clarify the point you're trying to make here.

I sent you enough literature about it.

It's all about history how Church didn't agree with smoking mostly because it gave people pleasure without Church's direct control, so they were very long time hostile towards tobacco.
Only money coming from colonies full of tobacco ordered them to stop yell about 'tobacco sin' and accept it.

[Czechanada]

I want to make a second coming joke here, since the thread is almost at its end, and we'll gonna have to reboot it.

But then I noticed that this is incarnation number three already

You could have made a Holy Trinity joke.

Also, you could redeem yourself with coming up with a catchy subtitle for the next iteration of the thread like Christian Discussion Thread IV: The Wrath of Paul.

[The Blaatschapen]

I want to make a second coming joke here, since the thread is almost at its end, and we'll gonna have to reboot it.

But then I noticed that this is incarnation number three already

You could have made a Holy Trinity joke.

Also, you could redeem yourself with coming up with a catchy subtitle for the next iteration of the thread like Christian Discussion Thread IV: The Wrath of Paul.

The Roman Empire strikes back?

Revenge of the Jews?

The Apostolic Menace?

Christmas Holiday Special

[Lalaki]

What do you guys think of the schisms of the many Christian denominations?

[Esponnise]

What do you guys think of the schisms of the many Christian denominations?

Christ founded His one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church while He was on this earth. He didn't intend 30,000+ denominations.

[The Archregimancy]

So you might want to clarify the point you're trying to make here.

I sent you enough literature about it.

A list of bibliographical references that, by itself, did little to clarify your point.

It's all about history how Church didn't agree with smoking mostly because it gave people pleasure without Church's direct control, so they were very long time hostile towards tobacco.
Only money coming from colonies full of tobacco ordered them to stop yell about 'tobacco sin' and accept it.

So you think opposition to smoking is... bad?

And that this terrible opposition to smoking is somehow a uniquely Christian trait?

And that the entirety of Christianity has consistently shared the same universal motivation for this terribly misguided opposition?

[Constantinopolis]

I just saw this older post:

Orthodox brothers and sisters, is it odd and/or sinful for me to think there are some unfortunate similarities between some of our vocal, more solemn hymns and some Islamic Anasheeds?

Apparently both of our faiths frown upon the use of instruments in worship (except maybe our brothers in the Ethiopian Orthodox church), and some arabic orthodox chants and Nasheeds sound somewhat similar (though this may just be about the language itself)

Why "unfortunate similarities"? Why should it be thought odd or sinful to note something that's fairly well-known?

It's a matter of historical record that there was considerable syncretic interplay between early Islam and Christianity, particularly non-Chalcedonian Oriental Orthodox Syriac and Coptic Christianity.

It's not just hymnography, either. The chador seems to have been directly lifted from early medieval Byzantine female dress, and even the Muslim practice of prostration during daily prayer seems to have be a direct copy of the Syriac practice, where prostration during daily prayer remains the hypothetically preferred practice.

Thank you for pointing that out, Arch. And I would also like to add that there are clear similarities in architecture, as well. The traditional layout of a mosque, especially the use of a central dome, is rather obviously inspired by Orthodox church architecture.

And, of course, both churches and mosques in the Middle East and the Balkans often use the Hagia Sophia as a model. It is probably one of the most architecturally-influential buildings in the history of the world.

[New Waterford]

Not everything is secular.

Secularity (adjective form secular,[1] from Latin saecularis meaning "worldly" or "temporal")

Everything is wordly and temporal. Nothing is forever and what you can't see doesn't exist. Ergo everything is secular.

etymology =/= definition

[Murkwood]

You could have made a Holy Trinity joke.

Also, you could redeem yourself with coming up with a catchy subtitle for the next iteration of the thread like Christian Discussion Thread IV: The Wrath of Paul.

The Roman Empire strikes back?

Revenge of the Jews?

The Apostolic Menace?

Christmas Holiday Special

Three I came up with:

Putting On Our Rosary-Tinted Glasses.

Pope Christian Discussion Thread IV.

The Everlasting Lord Thread (TELT).

[Lalaki]

The Roman Empire strikes back?

Revenge of the Jews?

The Apostolic Menace?

Christmas Holiday Special

Three I came up with:

Putting On Our Rosary-Tinted Glasses.

Pope Christian Discussion Thread IV.

The Everlasting Lord Thread (TELT).

Angel Halo 1: Prayer Evolved

[Murkwood]

Three I came up with:

Putting On Our Rosary-Tinted Glasses.

Pope Christian Discussion Thread IV.

The Everlasting Lord Thread (TELT).

Angel Halo 1: Prayer Evolved

I like TELT the best.

[Socialist Czechia]

It's all about history how Church didn't agree with smoking mostly because it gave people pleasure without Church's direct control, so they were very long time hostile towards tobacco.
Only money coming from colonies full of tobacco ordered them to stop yell about 'tobacco sin' and accept it.

So you think opposition to smoking is... bad?

And that this terrible opposition to smoking is somehow a uniquely Christian trait?

And that the entirety of Christianity has consistently shared the same universal motivation for this terribly misguided opposition?

Yup.

[Benshir]

Yup.

Wrong. Several different religious systems oppose smoking; the use/consumption of intoxicating/mind-altering substances. Buddhism, for example, is centuries older and maintains this stance.

[Dangelia]

Yup.

Wrong. Several different religious systems oppose smoking; the use/consumption of intoxicating/mind-altering substances. Buddhism, for example, is centuries older and maintains this stance.

Let alone society in general.

[The Flood]

So you might want to clarify the point you're trying to make here.

I sent you enough literature about it.
It's all about history how Church didn't agree with smoking mostly because it gave people pleasure without Church's direct control, so they were very long time hostile towards tobacco.
Only money coming from colonies full of tobacco ordered them to stop yell about 'tobacco sin' and accept it.

There are very sound logical reasons for the Church to be against smoking: mainly that it's freaking terrible for you and has no benefits.

[The Flood]

So you think opposition to smoking is... bad?
And that this terrible opposition to smoking is somehow a uniquely Christian trait?
And that the entirety of Christianity has consistently shared the same universal motivation for this terribly misguided opposition?

Yup.

lol

[Tarsonis Survivors]

I like Cigars, and 12 year old Jameson whiskey. If that's a sin, what pleasure is there in life?

[Benuty]

I like Cigars, and 12 year old Jameson whiskey. If that's a sin, what pleasure is there in life?

The funeral pyres of your enemies armies.