Christian Discussion Thread III

[Grenartia]

Agreed. IMPO, I don't look forward to a time where we've outlawed abortion. Instead i look forward to a time when we've written it off as a barbaric practice of our imperfect past.

I personally long for the day we can transplant foeti to external or artificial uteruses, so that women who don't want to carry their pregnancy on don't have to abort them.

This. So much.

Exactly. No killing unless killing is inevitable. I'm pretty sure the church allows for abortion if mother's life is in danger. It's still viewed as a tragedy though.

The Church provides no exceptions, abortion is intrinsically disordered against life.

See, this is where I've got to disagree with the Catholic Church. I have absolutely no problems for abortion in cases of rape or when the mother's life is in danger. And forcing a woman to keep the baby until birth under those circumstances is unethical and un-Christian.

See the quote I posted by Pope Pious XII

I did, and unless I misread, it seems to be an 'all or nothing' position.

As did I. Either that, or "the mother should choose to give up her life for the life of the child", which would seem to be endorsing a form of suicide, which means that its a damned if you do, damned if you don't type of situation, considering the Catholic stance on suicide.

[Grand Longueville]

I don't believe so, no. The Church, founded by God, is the primary (only) outlet for which the Will of God can be discerned.

Well, there are miracles are there not?

Yes, there are.

[Bundesdeutschland]

What have I missed?

[Grand Longueville]

See, this is where I've got to disagree with the Catholic Church. I have absolutely no problems for abortion in cases of rape or when the mother's life is in danger. And forcing a woman to keep the baby until birth under those circumstances is unethical and un-Christian.

Can you explain how it is specifically un-Christian[sic]?

[Tarsonis Survivors]

The Church provides no exceptions, abortion is intrinsically disordered against life.

See, this is where I've got to disagree with the Catholic Church. I have absolutely no problems for abortion in cases of rape or when the mother's life is in danger. And forcing a woman to keep the baby until birth under those circumstances is unethical and un-Christian.

I'd prefer morning after pill in the case of rape.

I did, and unless I misread, it seems to be an 'all or nothing' position.

As did I. Either that, or "the mother should choose to give up her life for the life of the child", which would seem to be endorsing a form of suicide, which means that its a damned if you do, damned if you don't type of situation, considering the Catholic stance on suicide.

It's not one or the other, it's the BOTH are sacred, and you must try to save both. It is immoral to intentionally kill one to save the other. The other quote I posted, shows that it Is however, acceptable but tragic, if one is unintentionally killed trying to save the other.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

See, this is where I've got to disagree with the Catholic Church. I have absolutely no problems for abortion in cases of rape or when the mother's life is in danger. And forcing a woman to keep the baby until birth under those circumstances is unethical and un-Christian.

Can you explain how it is specifically un-Christian[sic]?

So he can manifest his will outside the church. I.e through his angels.

[Grand Longueville]

Can you explain how it is specifically un-Christian[sic]?

So he can manifest his will outside the church. I.e through his angels.

The Angels are part of the Church, but regardless, I said that the Church is needed to discern the will.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

So he can manifest his will outside the church. I.e through his angels.

The Angels are part of the Church, but regardless, I said that the Church is needed to discern the will.

But she asked about how he Manifests his will. He can manifest his will outside the Church without the Church even knowing.

[Grand Longueville]

The Angels are part of the Church, but regardless, I said that the Church is needed to discern the will.

But she asked about how he Manifests his will. He can manifest his will outside the Church without the Church even knowing.

But we could not know that it is actually the will of God without the Church affirming as such. One prime example are Marian Apparitions. Fatima, Lourdes, Knock were all affirmed as being legitimate. Bayside and Garabandal were rejected and Medjugorje remains in Limbo.

[Blasveck]

Does that whole 'God's Will' come into play? That every naturally caused death somehow is of his intention or doing?

I might be confusing Catholic doctrine with Protestant doctrine, to be honest. I'm not entirely familiar with either, as I haven't found the time to refresh my memory.

God has a much more hands off role than we'd like. God doesn't cause car accidents, he doesn't send tsunami's and hurricanes, nor does he give disease. Rather he gives us comfort and strength, so we can endure these horrible things. That's not to say he doesn't kick out some miracles here and there.

The whole "God's Will" I think comes more from, once you have done all you can do, (that is morally acceptable) it must be left in God's hands, to do act or not act as he will.

You also have to remember, Christian Doctrine doesn't portray death as the ultimate horrible thin.. Life must be preserved sure, but death is but the greatest of all events, for we remove our mortal coil and join God in heaven.

I see. I have another question, if you don't mind.

Are you 'aware' of hell when you join God in heaven?

I know that the description of heaven given within te bible isn't exactly the most precise, but I have to ask because, if heaven is eternal, would you be aware of all those lost within hell for all of eternity?

[Tarsonis Survivors]

God has a much more hands off role than we'd like. God doesn't cause car accidents, he doesn't send tsunami's and hurricanes, nor does he give disease. Rather he gives us comfort and strength, so we can endure these horrible things. That's not to say he doesn't kick out some miracles here and there.

The whole "God's Will" I think comes more from, once you have done all you can do, (that is morally acceptable) it must be left in God's hands, to do act or not act as he will.

You also have to remember, Christian Doctrine doesn't portray death as the ultimate horrible thin.. Life must be preserved sure, but death is but the greatest of all events, for we remove our mortal coil and join God in heaven.

I see. I have another question, if you don't mind.

Are you 'aware' of hell when you join God in heaven?

I know that the description of heaven given within te bible isn't exactly the most precise, but I have to ask because, if heaven is eternal, would you be aware of all those lost within hell for all of eternity?

Well there isn't really a "Hell" per se. There is no description of Hell, and anytime "Hell or Hades" is mentioned it's in a parable. Hell is a metaphor for the Lost Soul, who is Eternally separated from God. And they won't be there for all eternity. At some point after the Apocalypse God destroys Satan and all the separated. They are given eternal rest, while the faithful live eternally with God.

[Bundesdeutschland]

I see. I have another question, if you don't mind.

Are you 'aware' of hell when you join God in heaven?

I know that the description of heaven given within te bible isn't exactly the most precise, but I have to ask because, if heaven is eternal, would you be aware of all those lost within hell for all of eternity?

Well there isn't really a "Hell" per se. There is no description of Hell, and anytime "Hell or Hades" is mentioned it's in a parable. Hell is a metaphor for the Lost Soul, who is Eternally separated from God. And they won't be there for all eternity. At some point after the Apocalypse God destroys Satan and all the separated. They are given eternal rest, while the faithful live eternally with God.

Isn't that annihalationism? Because that is up to debate. (Note: I am not suggesting a debate on this at the moment.)

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Well there isn't really a "Hell" per se. There is no description of Hell, and anytime "Hell or Hades" is mentioned it's in a parable. Hell is a metaphor for the Lost Soul, who is Eternally separated from God. And they won't be there for all eternity. At some point after the Apocalypse God destroys Satan and all the separated. They are given eternal rest, while the faithful live eternally with God.

Isn't that annihalationism? Because that is up to debate. (Note: I am not suggesting a debate on this at the moment.)

It is, because of the conflict realities of Revelation 20.

10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever...

...13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

At first it says the lake of fire causes torment forever and ever, but then it goes on to say the lake of fire is the "second death." So there's room for interpretation on what exactly that torment is, and if it really isn't metaphorical for eternal nonexistence.

[Blasveck]

I see. I have another question, if you don't mind.

Are you 'aware' of hell when you join God in heaven?

I know that the description of heaven given within te bible isn't exactly the most precise, but I have to ask because, if heaven is eternal, would you be aware of all those lost within hell for all of eternity?

Well there isn't really a "Hell" per se. There is no description of Hell, and anytime "Hell or Hades" is mentioned it's in a parable. Hell is a metaphor for the Lost Soul, who is Eternally separated from God. And they won't be there for all eternity. At some point after the Apocalypse God destroys Satan and all the separated. They are given eternal rest, while the faithful live eternally with God.

Sounds a lot like Universalism.

[Bundesdeutschland]

Isn't that annihalationism? Because that is up to debate. (Note: I am not suggesting a debate on this at the moment.)

It is, because of the conflict realities of Revelation 20.

10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever...

...13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

At first it says the lake of fire causes torment forever and ever, but then it goes on to say the lake of fire is the "second death." So there's room for interpretation on what exactly that torment is, and if it really isn't metaphorical for eternal nonexistence.

Hmm...

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Well there isn't really a "Hell" per se. There is no description of Hell, and anytime "Hell or Hades" is mentioned it's in a parable. Hell is a metaphor for the Lost Soul, who is Eternally separated from God. And they won't be there for all eternity. At some point after the Apocalypse God destroys Satan and all the separated. They are given eternal rest, while the faithful live eternally with God.

Sounds a lot like Universalism.

Well not everyone gets saved. If you are judged negatively, you die. You just don't have red hot pokers shoved up your ass for all eternity. You sleep eternally, or more really you cease to exist all together. Which I mean isn't really a terrible thing.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

It is, because of the conflict realities of Revelation 20.

10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever...

...13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

At first it says the lake of fire causes torment forever and ever, but then it goes on to say the lake of fire is the "second death." So there's room for interpretation on what exactly that torment is, and if it really isn't metaphorical for eternal nonexistence.

Hmm...

Also in Revelation 21: 1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.

It is unclear if the Sea he is referring to is the Ocean, or more likely IMHO the sea of fire.

[Bundesdeutschland]

Hmm...

Also in Revelation 21: 1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.

It is unclear if the Sea he is referring to is the Ocean, or more likely IMHO the sea of fire.

I think at the moment, he meant that there would be literally no sea or ocean, but then again, that's open to speculation and interpretation.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Also in Revelation 21: 1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.

It is unclear if the Sea he is referring to is the Ocean, or more likely IMHO the sea of fire.

I think at the moment, he meant that there would be literally no sea or ocean, but then again, that's open to speculation and interpretation.

True 21, goes on to reference to the Sea of Fire again. And talks a lot about New Jerusalem, which if one wanted to, could see the whole thing as an Allegory to the founding of the Catholic Church.

[Bundesdeutschland]

I think at the moment, he meant that there would be literally no sea or ocean, but then again, that's open to speculation and interpretation.

True 21, goes on to reference to the Sea of Fire again. And talks a lot about New Jerusalem, which if one wanted to, could see the whole thing as an Allegory to the founding of the Catholic Church.

And then preterism?

[Tarsonis Survivors]

True 21, goes on to reference to the Sea of Fire again. And talks a lot about New Jerusalem, which if one wanted to, could see the whole thing as an Allegory to the founding of the Catholic Church.

And then preterism?

::shrug::

[Bundesdeutschland]

And then preterism?

::shrug::

But then again, there comes the weirdos who say the Catholic Church is the apostate kingdom soon to come...

Which in my opinion is complete and utter inter-Christian anti-Catholic polemic crap.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

::shrug::

But then again, there comes the weirdos who say the Catholic Church is the apostate kingdom soon to come...

Which in my opinion is complete and utter inter-Christian anti-Catholic polemic crap.

Yup the Whore of Babylon and the Synagogue of Satan.

[Bundesdeutschland]

But then again, there comes the weirdos who say the Catholic Church is the apostate kingdom soon to come...

Which in my opinion is complete and utter inter-Christian anti-Catholic polemic crap.

Yup the Whore of Babylon and the Synagogue of Satan.

You saw the YouTube video?

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Hopefully my Graphic Novel version will shed some light on the matter, when it gets here.