Non-binary genders

[Rocopurr]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure those are the same thing. Hermaphrodite is just a derogatory term for intersex people.

More specific, to be exact.

and also derogatory.

It is? What would a non-derogatory term be?

[The Steel Magnolia]

More specific, to be exact.

and also derogatory.

It is? What would a non-derogatory term be?

Oh you had it right, I was agreeing with you. they aren't quite the same thing, hermaphrodite is more specific but it's also derogatory. Intersex is just fine,

[Des-Bal]

Nope. Male or Female. I will gladly defer to you as to which you'd like to be addressed as but I won't entertain deviation from those two.

[Shnercropolis]

I define "male" by the metric I defined. Can you provide a better metric?

Sure.

"I identify as male."

That was easy!

That's not a metric. That is an identification.

[Meryuma]

If however someone's gender expression does not match their gender, as is likely the case for most non-binary people if only because looking androgynous can be quite fashionable for cis people, then they can hardly expect people to be psychic and getting mad at others is not appropriate, unpleasant/dysphoria-triggering/annoying as being misgendered may be. Save the rage for if you correct them nicely and they tell you you're a mentally ill lying freak.

It's a question of picking your battles.

Yes, people of non-binary gender may be snappish when it comes to people who mis-label them. Do you want to pick a fight with them over it, knowing all the bullshit they already probably put up with? I don't.

I've been snapped at when I mis-gendered a trans person before, and even though I was hurt and thinking, "BUT I AM AN ALLY!" in my own head, I shut the fuck up and just apologized and let them be pissed at me about it. I figure, they have to live in a world that treats them shitty in countless ways that I don't have to deal with, and that's not fair, so maybe just this once I can handle being on the receiving end of Not Fair instead.

If I misgender someone I just kinda catch myself, go "oh shit" and apologize. It's sorta like spilling coffee on someone or something.

I guess I'm technically non-binary, because I don't acknowledge gender as a construct for adults.

It's not quite so simple.

Yes necessarily. Women who claim to be masculine but in fact do not have a testosterone level more than 1.5 standard deviations above the mean of all women are lying or confused or both.

And guys who claim to be masculine but have a testosterone level more than 1 standard deviation below the mean (of all men) are similarly incorrect.

Not sure if summer...*checks post count* Damn.

It's pretty obvious sarcasm if you ask me.

People claim this, but it's not true.
You don't get equality by pretending differences don't exist.
(You just get covert discrimination rather than overt)

Also: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 7104001083

I'm not saying people are all the same. I'm saying it's a waste of time to come up with 20 bazillion different labels for "genders" just so you can categorize all the people who aren't super-macho manly men or flowery pink girly girls. You can let people live how they want to live without building up all these artificial categories.

Ideally we should have a society in which one may do whatever one wants with their gender. However, we're a long way from that as it is now.

1. Nope.
2. When something is called a social construct, it means that something is made up, and not innate. We make up languages, but gender identity, while not essentialist, is innate. If it wasn't, then David Reimer should have had no problem identifying as female. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer
3. Many radical feminists during the second wave where very transphobic. They used the belief that gender is a social construct to give credence to their transphobia, because after all, if gender were purely a social construct and not innate, then gender dysphoria shouldn't exist. "You're not a real women, you're just a feminine man who wants to invade our safespaces!" or "You're not a man, you're a butch woman whose been brainwashed by the Patriarchy!" were common things said to transgender people.

Just because some people were dicks doesn't mean it's not a social construct. If you identify as black, and someone comes along and says, "You're not a real black person! You're just a wigger!" that's pretty dickish. And that sort of thing does happen.

I don't really think gender or race are entirely social constructs. They're a mix of biological traits and socially constructed baggage.

But if you're going to say that one of them is a social construct (which lots of people around here, including yourself, do for race), then you should be consistent and say that both are. There are people whose race is ambiguous and there are people whose gender is ambiguous. In both cases, the only way to settle the issue is for people to self-identify. There are no clear biological divisions between genders any more than there are for races.

So what justification do you have to say that gender is biological and race is a construct?

I think a lot of the pro-genderqueer people here would actually support what you're saying.

Sure.

"I identify as male."

That was easy!

That's not a metric. That is an identification.

If he walks like a male and quacks like a male, he's a male.

[Shnercropolis]

That's not a metric. That is an identification.

If he walks like a male and quacks like a male, he's a male.

I won't contest, for I have insufficient data to prove otherwise.

[Meryuma]

If he walks like a male and quacks like a male, he's a male.

I won't contest, for I have insufficient data to prove otherwise.

What data can "prove" a male to not be a real male?

[Shnercropolis]

I won't contest, for I have insufficient data to prove otherwise.

What data can "prove" a male to not be a real male?

please refer to my metric for defining "male-ness"

Also, I left out a few other hormones in my metric that also correlate with masculinity. I just don't want to look them up is all.

[The Steel Magnolia]

What data can "prove" a male to not be a real male?

please refer to my metric for defining "male-ness"

Also, I left out a few other hormones in my metric that also correlate with masculinity. I just don't want to look them up is all.

I don't think you understand the concept of 'social construct.'

[Shnercropolis]

please refer to my metric for defining "male-ness"

Also, I left out a few other hormones in my metric that also correlate with masculinity. I just don't want to look them up is all.

I don't think you understand the concept of 'social construct.'

I do. It's something that is constructed by society.
I'm not talking about social constructs here.

[Susurruses]

Nope. Male or Female. I will gladly defer to you as to which you'd like to be addressed as but I won't entertain deviation from those two.

You're trolling, right?
(Considering that even with the delusion that "sex = gender", there are more than two sexes)

[Rocopurr]

Nope. Male or Female. I will gladly defer to you as to which you'd like to be addressed as but I won't entertain deviation from those two.

So, I identify as neither and don't want to be considered either. What are you going to call me?

And why do you think that way?

[Agymnum]

Anyways, do you acknowledge non-binary genders?

Of course, it would be ridiculous, not to mention offensive, to call someone male/female if they clearly identify as something else. That's like calling a person who identifies himself as a sports fan a computer geek.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

Nope. Male or Female. I will gladly defer to you as to which you'd like to be addressed as but I won't entertain deviation from those two.

plz b joke.

[Shnercropolis]

Anyways, do you acknowledge non-binary genders?

Of course, it would be ridiculous, not to mention offensive, to call someone male/female if they clearly identify as something else. That's like calling a person who identifies himself as a sports fan a computer geek.

I think he means how legitimate do you consider those identifications.

[Agymnum]

Anyways, do you acknowledge non-binary genders?

Of course, it would be ridiculous, not to mention offensive, to call someone male/female if they clearly identify as something else. That's like calling a person who identifies himself as a sports fan a computer geek.

I think he means how legitimate do you consider those identifications.

Well it doesn't really matter whether you find them legitimate since if someone else says they're X gender you can't really say NOPE I WILL NOT ACKNOWLEDGE YOUR GENDER. That's just being obstinate for the sake of being obstinate.

[Ostroeuropa]

I acknowledge them, furthermore I suspect that there may well be many more agendered individuals than we currently know of.
It is my suspicion that educating the populace as to the existence of Agender as a form of identity (Or non-identity), and asking them to thoroughly analyze whether or not they, in fact, feel like a man, a woman, something else, or no gender entirely, may even lead to a majority of respondants replying with Agender as their choice.
In the same manner, if you were to ask people whether or not they identify as a particular race, but give them the option to identify as no race in particular, my suspicion is that the latter would be a majority.

To those of you on this forum; ask yourself the following:
Do you feel like a man/woman?
What would that even feel like in the first place?
Would you, had you been born as the opposite sex, particularly care? (If you are in a relationship, you are invited to genderswap your partner also so as to avoid that pitfall if it prevents a stumbling block.)
My suspicion is that Gender is a granfalloon. A non-naturally existed, largely pointless, social construct that provides no benefits, based upon entirely irrelevant biology (Such as penises and vaginas.)
The existence of people who deviate from this (Have penises, feel like women) is entirely normal behaviour for granfalloons.

[Shnercropolis]

I acknowledge them, furthermore I suspect that there may well be many more agendered individuals than we currently know of.
It is my suspicion that educating the populace as to the existence of Agender as a form of identity, and asking them to thoroughly analyze whether or not they, in fact, feel like a man, a woman, something else, or no gender entirely, may even lead to a majority of respondants replying with Agender as their choice.
In the same manner, if you were to ask people whether or not they identify as a particular race, but give them the option to identify as no race in particular, my suspicion is that the latter would be a majority.

The problem here is that there are physiological differences between, say, a black man and a white man.
Difference A: skin melanin content

There are also physiological and a few psychological differences between men and women
Difference A: genetalia

[Ostroeuropa]

I acknowledge them, furthermore I suspect that there may well be many more agendered individuals than we currently know of.
It is my suspicion that educating the populace as to the existence of Agender as a form of identity, and asking them to thoroughly analyze whether or not they, in fact, feel like a man, a woman, something else, or no gender entirely, may even lead to a majority of respondants replying with Agender as their choice.
In the same manner, if you were to ask people whether or not they identify as a particular race, but give them the option to identify as no race in particular, my suspicion is that the latter would be a majority.

To those of you on this forum; ask yourself the following:
Do you feel like a man/woman?
What would that even feel like in the first place?
Would you, had you been born as the opposite sex, particularly care? (If you are in a relationship, you are invited to genderswap your partner also so as to avoid that pitfall if it prevents a stumbling block.)
My suspicion is that Gender is a granfalloon. A non-naturally existed, largely pointless, social construct that provides no benefits.

The problem is that there are physiological differences between, say, a black man and a white man.
Difference a: skin melanin content

Quite so. But there are physiological differences between persons of different hair colors too. We do not build identity around it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granfalloon

Specifically:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granfalloo ... _Technique

We can therefore, since gender is a chosen (or at least, subconscious) and not assigned grandfalloon determine that your gender is largely decided by which group you want to feel kinship to.
As an agendered individual, I feel no kinship with people based on gender. Because that would be stupid. It's a granfalloon.

[San Salazar]

I acknowledge them. Mainly because gender is a social construct.

[Shnercropolis]

The problem is that there are physiological differences between, say, a black man and a white man.
Difference a: skin melanin content

Quite so. But there are physiological differences between persons of different hair colors too. We do not build identity around it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granfalloon

Specifically:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granfalloo ... _Technique

We can therefore, since gender is a chosen (or at least, subconscious) and not assigned grandfalloon determine that your gender is largely decided by which group you want to feel kinship to.
As an agendered individual, I feel no kinship with people based on gender. Because that would be stupid. It's a granfalloon.

We do. It's up for debate whether we should or shouldn't.
I know I'm in several Granfalloons.

Anyway, why don't you classify yourself by sex? It's not a Granfalloon and it's more specific too.

[Ostroeuropa]

Quite so. But there are physiological differences between persons of different hair colors too. We do not build identity around it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granfalloon

Specifically:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granfalloo ... _Technique

We do. It's up for debate whether we should or shouldn't.
I know I'm in several Granfalloons.

Why would you know that and still be a member of them?

[Ostroeuropa]

Quite so. But there are physiological differences between persons of different hair colors too. We do not build identity around it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granfalloon

Specifically:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granfalloo ... _Technique

We can therefore, since gender is a chosen (or at least, subconscious) and not assigned grandfalloon determine that your gender is largely decided by which group you want to feel kinship to.
As an agendered individual, I feel no kinship with people based on gender. Because that would be stupid. It's a granfalloon.

We do. It's up for debate whether we should or shouldn't.
I know I'm in several Granfalloons.

Anyway, why don't you classify yourself by sex? It's not a Granfalloon and it's more specific too.

I'm perfectly willing to classify myself by sex when it comes to medical things. Because that actually has a purpose.
What I wouldn't do is IDENTIFY based on my sex, any more than I would form an identity around the length of my arms or my livers health.
If you want me to join a line based on what sex I am, i'll do it.
What I won't do is pretend that it forms an important part of who I am, because it simply doesn't. I would still be the same person were my sex reversed.
Do you identify as a gender, and why do you do so

[Shnercropolis]

We do. It's up for debate whether we should or shouldn't.
I know I'm in several Granfalloons.

Anyway, why don't you classify yourself by sex? It's not a Granfalloon and it's more specific too.

I'm perfectly willing to classify myself by sex when it comes to medical things. Because that actually has a purpose.
What I wouldn't do is IDENTIFY based on my sex, any more than I would form an identity around the length of my arms or my livers health.
If you want me to join a line based on what sex I am, i'll do it.
What I won't do is pretend that it forms an important part of who I am, because it simply doesn't. I would still be the same person were my sex reversed.
Do you identify as a gender, and why do you do so

I identify myself as male because I have a penis and no vagina.

[Ostroeuropa]

I'm perfectly willing to classify myself by sex when it comes to medical things. Because that actually has a purpose.
What I wouldn't do is IDENTIFY based on my sex, any more than I would form an identity around the length of my arms or my livers health.
If you want me to join a line based on what sex I am, i'll do it.
What I won't do is pretend that it forms an important part of who I am, because it simply doesn't. I would still be the same person were my sex reversed.
Do you identify as a gender, and why do you do so

I identify myself as male because I have a penis and no vagina.

But there are transgendered individuals.
Doesn't that show you that you have a very bad reason to identify as male?
Since transgendered individuals exist, the whole "Because I have a penis" argument seems to fall completely flat.
Do you have any reason for identifying as male beyond that, since it's clearly not actually a solid reason