Non-binary genders

[Susurruses]

You know those arguments people like to make about how race is a meaningless social construct? Those could just as well be applied to gender.

People claim this, but it's not true.
You don't get equality by pretending differences don't exist.
(You just get covert discrimination rather than overt)

Also: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 7104001083

[Susurruses]

I guess I'm technically non-binary, because I don't acknowledge gender as a construct for adults.

Your language implies you think that binary gender is okay for kids.
(Ignoring that adults are just more developed children and identity is partially derived from childhood experience?)
Gender roles are dumb, but gender itself is a thing that exists and should be acknowledged.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Oh, I don't know, having society constantly tell you you're a liar, you're mentally ill, you're a disgusting freak who deserves to be put into concentration camps tends to leave one a bit on edge. If you can't forgive someone for being a tiny bit pissed at yet another person fucking up, then I imagine you must not have many trans friends.

If however someone's gender expression does not match their gender, as is likely the case for most non-binary people if only because looking androgynous can be quite fashionable for cis people, then they can hardly expect people to be psychic and getting mad at others is not appropriate, unpleasant/dysphoria-triggering/annoying as being misgendered may be. Save the rage for if you correct them nicely and they tell you you're a mentally ill lying freak.

I'd respond, but bottle handled it quite nicely.

It's not an uncommon assumption to make, nor is it an unreasonable one! But if you get snapped at, remember that this is what most people think. Cut them a little slack.

[The Steel Magnolia]

You know those arguments people like to make about how race is a meaningless social construct? Those could just as well be applied to gender.

Have I not made that argument in this thread yet?

I'm getting slow in my old age...

I'd hardly call it meaningless. a social construct, certainly.

[Arkinesia]

I guess I'm technically non-binary, because I don't acknowledge gender as a construct for adults.

Your language implies you think that binary gender is okay for kids.
(Ignoring that adults are just more developed children and identity is partially derived from childhood experience?)
Gender roles are dumb, but gender itself is a thing that exists and should be acknowledged.

Your initial assumption is correct, I think that gender is a legitimate construct for children.

Once they reach puberty and develop their unique sexual identity in their sexuality, gender should be shucked off, just as with many other things children get rid of as they mature into adults. Gender is to sexual identity as training wheels are to bicycles.

[Tsuntion]

I'd respond, but bottle handled it quite nicely.

It's not an uncommon assumption to make, nor is it an unreasonable one! But if you get snapped at, remember that this is what most people think. Cut them a little slack.

I will in the future; thanks.

Your initial assumption is correct, I think that gender is a legitimate construct for children.

Once they reach puberty and develop their unique sexual identity in their sexuality, gender should be shucked off, just as with many other things children get rid of as they mature into adults. Gender is to sexual identity as training wheels are to bicycles.

Out of interest, why do you think that gender/gender roles/whatever should be there at all for children?

[Arkinesia]

Your initial assumption is correct, I think that gender is a legitimate construct for children.

Once they reach puberty and develop their unique sexual identity in their sexuality, gender should be shucked off, just as with many other things children get rid of as they mature into adults. Gender is to sexual identity as training wheels are to bicycles.

Out of interest, why do you think that gender/gender roles/whatever should be there at all for children?

Gender isn't as inherently sexual as sexuality is, and thus makes for a safer environment for children to explore the elementary components of sexual identity without putting themselves into situations they have inadequate capacity to understand. Children and sexuality is a dicey topic for a reason, you know, and age of consent laws aren't there for shits and giggles either. Genders should theoretically coexist with the parental sexual identities and the identities of role models in a child's life so that the child can best adapt to his or her own body and move comfortably into the adolescent stage, and at the start of puberty, there will be a sexual identity the adolescent will better identify with, allowing him or her to move into that identity, and be comfortable with his or her own sexual identity.

It admittedly sounds kind of like a choice, but it really is a lot more organic than that. It's not really a choice, but it's not necessarily something each child is born with either, it's sort of in between. Obviously, by virtue of the way human society has naturally structured itself, this process means that the most common (some might call it default) sexual identity is the heterosexual identity, but different circumstances, for good or bad, can result in children choosing homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, etc. identities. Indeed, this process means that sometimes homosexual identities or heterosexual identities may take shape as a consequence of bad experiences with the opposite identities in the child's life.

It's very complicated and I'm still kind of trying to figure out my own beliefs on all of this, but then again, I'm not going to school for psychology either. I've mainly just developed it from talking to people who are/have.

[Susurruses]

Out of interest, why do you think that gender/gender roles/whatever should be there at all for children?

Gender isn't as inherently sexual as sexuality is, and thus makes for a safer environment for children to explore the elementary components of sexual identity without putting themselves into situations they have inadequate capacity to understand. Children and sexuality is a dicey topic for a reason, you know, and age of consent laws aren't there for shits and giggles either. Genders should theoretically coexist with the parental sexual identities and the identities of role models in a child's life so that the child can best adapt to his or her own body and move comfortably into the adolescent stage, and at the start of puberty, there will be a sexual identity the adolescent will better identify with, allowing him or her to move into that identity, and be comfortable with his or her own sexual identity.

It admittedly sounds kind of like a choice, but it really is a lot more organic than that. It's not really a choice, but it's not necessarily something each child is born with either, it's sort of in between. Obviously, by virtue of the way human society has naturally structured itself, this process means that the most common (some might call it default) sexual identity is the heterosexual identity, but different circumstances, for good or bad, can result in children choosing homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, etc. identities. Indeed, this process means that sometimes homosexual identities or heterosexual identities may take shape as a consequence of bad experiences with the opposite identities in the child's life.

It's very complicated and I'm still kind of trying to figure out my own beliefs on all of this, but then again, I'm not going to school for psychology either. I've mainly just developed it from talking to people who are/have.

Gender is not sexuality.
Nor is it sexual in nature.
It is not a precursor to nor derivative of sexuality.
Telling children that they're a boy if they have a penis or a girl if they have a vagina is, well, silly & wrong. I don't believe in lying to children, & certainly not in feeding them misinformation.
(If we take care what goes into their mouths, we should take care what goes into their minds too.)

I don't see why a child shouldn't be aware there's a whole spectrum of relationships and all are perfectly acceptable provided there is mutual (presuming capable) consent.
I'm not sure what you're saying, but it doesn't justify a gender binary nor does it justify forcing a child into gender roles.
(For a perfect example of "Doing it right", see Angelina Jolie's child and Gwen Stefani's)
Just make them aware of the variation and then let them settle on what they want.
Patience and understanding, alongside provision of sound information.

Your language appears to hint towards a heteronormative outlook and perhaps a bit too heavily towards the "What went wrong that X developed instead of Y?" line of reasoning.
(Which, though valid in some situations, isn't really the main explanation for an event)

[The Spiral Future]

Sure I acknowledge non-binary genders, there's no reason not to in the first place.

Also, what is Tri-gender?

[Rocopurr]

Sure I acknowledge non-binary genders, there's no reason not to in the first place.

Also, what is Tri-gender?

Description is in OP, just click the spoiler and look for trigender.

[Geilinor]

Since gender is a social construct, it's definitely not binary.

I agree that gender doesn't have to be binary, but the issue is often treated as it is binary. Gender is confused with sex far too often. They are not the same.

[The Spiral Future]

Sure I acknowledge non-binary genders, there's no reason not to in the first place.

Also, what is Tri-gender?

Description is in OP, just click the spoiler and look for trigender.

Interesting, I wonder what their perspective of the world is like in comparison to one who sees everything as binary?

[Dyakovo]

Your language implies you think that binary gender is okay for kids.
(Ignoring that adults are just more developed children and identity is partially derived from childhood experience?)
Gender roles are dumb, but gender itself is a thing that exists and should be acknowledged.

Your initial assumption is correct, I think that gender is a legitimate construct for children.

Once they reach puberty and develop their unique sexual identity in their sexuality, gender should be shucked off, just as with many other things children get rid of as they mature into adults. Gender is to sexual identity as training wheels are to bicycles.

Why is it legitimate construct for pre-pubescent children, but not for people who are post-pubescent?

[Breadknife]

but now even Lego has decided that they have to come out with Legos: Little Housewife Edition to make sure that girls aren't getting their cooties all over the good Legos for boys.

First of all, I consider "Lego" to be the plural of "Lego brick" in the same way as "Sand" is of "Sand grain". And I feel that so very strongly that I'm even going to pre-empt anything official coming out of Lego Group themselves to the contrary by igoring it..

Secondly, there was the Homemaker range (1970s), Paradisa and Belville (1990s) before the Friends range of now. It seems to be a bidecennial phase they go through, nothing particularly new.

(Give me some classic Space-range sets, though, any day.)

[The Blaatschapen]

Buried under the gay rights and abortion threads, it's a gender related thread. A non-binary gender thread, oooh.

Anyways, do you acknowledge non-binary genders?

For those of you who don't know, non-binary genders are all the genders besides male and female. This includes, but is not limited to, agender, pangender, androgynous, bigender, and trigender (My apologies if I forgot anything).

I acknowledge non-binary genders. Even if they're a small percentage, there are more genders than male and female. After all, it isn't hurting anyone to have more than male and female.

Agender (non-gender): “not identifying with any gender, the feeling of having no gender.”

Androgyne: “1. A person whose biological sex is not readily apparent. 2. A person who is intermediate between the two traditional genders. 3. A person who rejects gender roles entirely.”

Bigender: “To identify as both genders and/or to have a tendency to move between masculine and feminine gender-typed behavior depending on context, expressing a distinctly male persona and a distinctly female persona, two separate genders in one body.”

Gender fluid: “Referring to a gender identity that changes with time and/or situation as opposed to a fix sex-role or gender queer expression"

Pangender: “A person whose gender identity is comprised of many gender expressions."

Trigender: “People who feel they are neither male nor female, but not androgynous either and construct their own gender.” Trigender may also be used to refer to one who moves between three genders, as bigender is used to refer to those who move between two genders."

Are there also descriptions of the binary genders? I know they are called "male" and "female", but what does the gender 'male' mean? Sure, male gender role. But what does that entail?

[Shnercropolis]

I will accept quantum gender theory as soon as I see some wavefunctions.

[Shnercropolis]

Buried under the gay rights and abortion threads, it's a gender related thread. A non-binary gender thread, oooh.

Anyways, do you acknowledge non-binary genders?

For those of you who don't know, non-binary genders are all the genders besides male and female. This includes, but is not limited to, agender, pangender, androgynous, bigender, and trigender (My apologies if I forgot anything).

I acknowledge non-binary genders. Even if they're a small percentage, there are more genders than male and female. After all, it isn't hurting anyone to have more than male and female.

Agender (non-gender): “not identifying with any gender, the feeling of having no gender.”

Androgyne: “1. A person whose biological sex is not readily apparent. 2. A person who is intermediate between the two traditional genders. 3. A person who rejects gender roles entirely.”

Bigender: “To identify as both genders and/or to have a tendency to move between masculine and feminine gender-typed behavior depending on context, expressing a distinctly male persona and a distinctly female persona, two separate genders in one body.”

Gender fluid: “Referring to a gender identity that changes with time and/or situation as opposed to a fix sex-role or gender queer expression"

Pangender: “A person whose gender identity is comprised of many gender expressions."

Trigender: “People who feel they are neither male nor female, but not androgynous either and construct their own gender.” Trigender may also be used to refer to one who moves between three genders, as bigender is used to refer to those who move between two genders."

Are there also descriptions of the binary genders? I know they are called "male" and "female", but what does the gender 'male' mean? Sure, male gender role. But what does that entail?

Hightened testosterone levels.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Are there also descriptions of the binary genders? I know they are called "male" and "female", but what does the gender 'male' mean? Sure, male gender role. But what does that entail?

Hightened testosterone levels.

Not necessarily.

[Shnercropolis]

Hightened testosterone levels.

Not necessarily.

Yes necessarily. Women who claim to be masculine but in fact do not have a testosterone level more than 1.5 standard deviations above the mean of all women are lying or confused or both.

And guys who claim to be masculine but have a testosterone level more than 1 standard deviation below the mean (of all men) are similarly incorrect.

[Furious Grandmothers]

Not necessarily.

Yes necessarily. Women who claim to be masculine but in fact do not have a testosterone level more than 1.5 standard deviations above the mean of all women are lying or confused or both.

And guys who claim to be masculine but have a testosterone level more than 1 standard deviation below the mean (of all men) are similarly incorrect.

Not sure if summer...*checks post count* Damn.

[Linux and the X]

(Image)

Is that Hugh Laurie?

[The Steel Magnolia]

Not necessarily.

Yes necessarily. Women who claim to be masculine but in fact do not have a testosterone level more than 1.5 standard deviations above the mean of all women are lying or confused or both.

And guys who claim to be masculine but have a testosterone level more than 1 standard deviation below the mean (of all men) are similarly incorrect.

Nah but that's not what you said. You said being male requires higher testosterone. Which just flat out isn't true, as being male only required identifying as such.

(Also you don't get to tell people they're lying or confused or both).

[Bottle]

Not necessarily.

Yes necessarily. Women who claim to be masculine but in fact do not have a testosterone level more than 1.5 standard deviations above the mean of all women are lying or confused or both.

And guys who claim to be masculine but have a testosterone level more than 1 standard deviation below the mean (of all men) are similarly incorrect.

I would like to learn more about your appointment as Official Gender Assigner. Was there a ceremony? Was it nice?

[Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro]

Someone help me plox

I want to know if I'm genderqueer or cis now. If there is a scale between a thing and another I'm pretty sure I am at least (s)lightly genderqueer.

Since about age 11 I've been concerned how I would look as an adult. I wanted to be similar to Noir's Kirika (yep an anime), except for the boobs I wouldn't like to have, not more masculine than her, and if my body was indeed that feminine I would like to cut my hair longer in channel cut (it wouldn't work because my deepest deepest chestnut hair is much more full, bulky and wavy - it is an in-between of young Yoko Ono's and Revenge's Victoria Greyson's - than the ideal for such cut to be nice in me, and my forehead is too short for me to have bangs, even more with my kind of hair that goes nice long but not so much longer short, but anyway >.<).

I even told my father and stepmother that it was androgynous, much to their delight at joking on me. D:

Neither my hands nor my voice look masculine, the earlier looks like that of a chubby young adolescent girl and the latter sounds like that of an average 13-year-old boy here, and I truly am not unhappy of them. I'd rather not have a dark, kinky, fast-growing beard at all, and not have any bodily hair except those that were already here when I was 10-11 (five years after my testosterone was high enough to make me develop bodily androgenic terminal hair on the most sensitive areas), or like that of your average 15- to 16-year-old of northern European descent. >_>

I don't know if my discomfort with looking so male has too much to do with the fact that I am a fat guy, but I think it is just part of the problem, since I was average at 11 and 12, skinny at 13 and 14, average again at 15, overweight at 16, and only obese as in parts of my childhood again at 17, though this year it is liberally fluctuating in the border between non-obese overweight and obesity (seems like my body got used to over 4 years of compulsive sedentarism lololol), and I have self-esteem and anxiety issues about how my body and face will look, and I am afraid of getting rough masculine traits as my father's, since those times.

You can just recommend me a place where I can find answers if you don't know, but your opinions would be very welcomed, though.

[Tsuntion]

Someone help me plox

I want to know if I'm genderqueer or cis now. If there is a scale between a thing and another I'm pretty sure I am at least (s)lightly genderqueer.

Since about age 11 I've been concerned how I would look as an adult. I wanted to be similar to Noir's Kirika (yep an anime), except for the boobs I wouldn't like to have, not more masculine than her, and if my body was indeed that feminine I would like to cut my hair longer in channel cut (it wouldn't work because my deepest deepest chestnut hair is much more full, bulky and wavy - it is an in-between of young Yoko Ono's and Revenge's Victoria Greyson's - than the ideal for such cut to be nice in me, and my forehead is too short for me to have bangs, even more with my kind of hair that goes nice long but not so much longer short, but anyway >.<).

I even told my father and stepmother that it was androgynous, much to their delight at joking on me. D:

Neither my hands nor my voice look masculine, the earlier looks like that of a chubby young adolescent girl and the latter sounds like that of an average 13-year-old boy here, and I truly am not unhappy of them. I'd rather not have a dark, kinky, fast-growing beard at all, and not have any bodily hair except those that were already here when I was 10-11 (five years after my testosterone was high enough to make me develop bodily androgenic terminal hair on the most sensitive areas), or like that of your average 15- to 16-year-old of northern European descent. >_>

I don't know if my discomfort with looking so male has too much to do with the fact that I am a fat guy, but I think it is just part of the problem, since I was average at 11 and 12, skinny at 13 and 14, average again at 15, overweight at 16, and only obese as in parts of my childhood again at 17, though this year it is liberally fluctuating in the border between non-obese overweight and obesity (seems like my body got used to over 4 years of compulsive sedentarism lololol), and I have self-esteem and anxiety issues about how my body and face will look, and I am afraid of getting rough masculine traits as my father's, since those times.

You can just recommend me a place where I can find answers if you don't know, but your opinions would be very welcomed, though.

Firstly, yes, there is a scale. In the same way that there isn't just hetero-bi-homo with bisexuality being exactly and inflexibly in the middle, so you can have different "degrees" of feeling masculine and feminine and androgynous and otherwise genderqueer.

Secondly, Empty Closets is an active and safe forum for LGBT folk figuring out their identities as well as coming out to others. I can't help you, but others there might be able to.