NationStates

Grenartia wrote:
Hi, I'm androgynous, and I'm neither confused nor "trying to be a special snowflake".

East Sashimi wrote:

Grenartia wrote:
Hi, I'm androgynous, and I'm neither confused nor "trying to be a special snowflake".

Good for you, as I just said I'm happy for you to call yourself whatever you want, to act like or be whatever you want, I just want you to know that I don't believe you are the gender that you say you are.
I don't dislike you or mean to offend you or anything, its just I don't think there is such thing as an 'androgynous' gender.

East Sashimi wrote:

Grenartia wrote:
Hi, I'm androgynous, and I'm neither confused nor "trying to be a special snowflake".

Good for you, as I just said I'm happy for you to call yourself whatever you want, to act like or be whatever you want, I just want you to know that I don't believe you are the gender that you say you are.
I don't dislike you or mean to offend you or anything, its just I don't think there is such thing as an 'androgynous' gender.

Linux and the X wrote:

East Sashimi wrote:
Good for you, as I just said I'm happy for you to call yourself whatever you want, to act like or be whatever you want, I just want you to know that I don't believe you are the gender that you say you are.
I don't dislike you or mean to offend you or anything, its just I don't think there is such thing as an 'androgynous' gender.

-An image with innapropriate words on it-

East Sashimi wrote:

Grenartia wrote:
Hi, I'm androgynous, and I'm neither confused nor "trying to be a special snowflake".

Good for you, as I just said I'm happy for you to call yourself whatever you want, to act like or be whatever you want, I just want you to know that I don't believe you are the gender that you say you are.
I don't dislike you or mean to offend you or anything, its just I don't think there is such thing as an 'androgynous' gender.

East Sashimi wrote:

Linux and the X wrote:-An image with innapropriate words on it-

I think you need to sit down and think about how this place is pg/13.

If you can find me reliable scientific proof that I am wrong I will happily admit I was wrong.
If not we could just agree to disagree before this turns to name calling and ad hominem.
Or alternatively we could just all get warnings and the thread is locked.

East Sashimi wrote:

Linux and the X wrote:-An image with innapropriate words on it-

I think you need to sit down and think about how this place is pg/13.

If you can find me reliable scientific proof that I am wrong I will happily admit I was wrong.
If not we could just agree to disagree before this turns to name calling and ad hominem.
Or alternatively we could just all get warnings and the thread is locked.

East Sashimi wrote:

Linux and the X wrote:-An image with innapropriate words on it-

1. I think you need to sit down and think about how this place is pg/13.

2. If you can find me reliable scientific proof that I am wrong I will happily admit I was wrong.
If not we could just agree to disagree before this turns to name calling and ad hominem.
Or alternatively we could just all get warnings and the thread is locked.

Transgender is an umbrella term for persons whose gender identity, gender expression, or behavior does not conform to that typically associated with the sex to which they were assigned at birth. Gender identity refers to a person’s internal sense of being male, female, or something else; gender expression refers to the way a person communicates gender identity to others through behavior, clothing, hairstyles, voice, or body characteristics. “Trans” is sometimes used as shorthand for “transgender.” While transgender is generally a good term to use, not everyone whose appearance or behavior is gender-nonconforming will identify as a transgender person. The ways that transgender people are talked about in popular culture, academia, and science are constantly changing, particularly as individuals’ awareness, knowledge, and openness about transgender people and their experiences grow.

Furious Grandmothers wrote:

East Sashimi wrote:
I think you need to sit down and think about how this place is pg/13.

If you can find me reliable scientific proof that I am wrong I will happily admit I was wrong.
If not we could just agree to disagree before this turns to name calling and ad hominem.
Or alternatively we could just all get warnings and the thread is locked.

Well, fuck. Fucking fuckety fuck.

Scientific proof that reject what claim? What kind of scientific proof to you want? Is the fact that there are intersex people and people with other combinations of the sex chromosomes other than XX and XY good? Probably not, since sex isn't gender. Oh well.

Also, your fears of name-calling, ad hominems, warnings and thread-locking are unfounded.

Grenartia wrote:

East Sashimi wrote:
1. I think you need to sit down and think about how this place is pg/13.

2. If you can find me reliable scientific proof that I am wrong I will happily admit I was wrong.
If not we could just agree to disagree before this turns to name calling and ad hominem.
Or alternatively we could just all get warnings and the thread is locked.

1. And you need to sit down and fucking realize that "innapropriate words" aren't against PG-13.

2. Would a link to the APA confirming the existence of non-binary gender work?
http://www.apa.org/topics/sexuality/transgender.aspx

Transgender is an umbrella term for persons whose gender identity, gender expression, or behavior does not conform to that typically associated with the sex to which they were assigned at birth. Gender identity refers to a person’s internal sense of being male, female, or something else; gender expression refers to the way a person communicates gender identity to others through behavior, clothing, hairstyles, voice, or body characteristics. “Trans” is sometimes used as shorthand for “transgender.” While transgender is generally a good term to use, not everyone whose appearance or behavior is gender-nonconforming will identify as a transgender person. The ways that transgender people are talked about in popular culture, academia, and science are constantly changing, particularly as individuals’ awareness, knowledge, and openness about transgender people and their experiences grow.

East Sashimi wrote:

Linux and the X wrote:-An image with innapropriate words on it-

I think you need to sit down and think about how this place is pg/13.

If you can find me reliable scientific proof that I am wrong I will happily admit I was wrong.

East Sashimi wrote:

Furious Grandmothers wrote:Well, fuck. Fucking fuckety fuck.

Scientific proof that reject what claim? What kind of scientific proof to you want? Is the fact that there are intersex people and people with other combinations of the sex chromosomes other than XX and XY good? Probably not, since sex isn't gender. Oh well.

Also, your fears of name-calling, ad hominems, warnings and thread-locking are unfounded.

I just thought since this place has to be suitable for 13 year olds the 'f' word would be a bit innapropriate.
Also way to strawman there. I asked for scientific proof that non-binary genders exist and then you say something about intersex people which isn't really relevant and then tell me sex =/= gender, which I thought we already knew.

Also to the other person who said my views are ludicrous, if not believing in a concept about how gender works which has no scientific proof, and which is pretty much only believed by a few extreme left LGBT people is ludicrous then well I'm glad to be ludicrous.

Johnw9171 wrote:DNA. XX. XY. Even if there's a genetic defect, a Y means male and no Y means female.

East Sashimi wrote:

Grenartia wrote:
1. And you need to sit down and fucking realize that "innapropriate words" aren't against PG-13.

2. Would a link to the APA confirming the existence of non-binary gender work?
http://www.apa.org/topics/sexuality/transgender.aspx

1. This is proof that some people think they aren't male or female, not that non-binary genders exist and 2. frankly I find it insulting to trans people that this article basically says everyone who doesn't conform to the norms about gender has the option to use the label 'trans'.

East Sashimi wrote:Personally I believe there are only two genders. If you don't think you are either of them you are either confused or trying to be a special snowflake.
However what you identity as is none of anyone's business apart from your own, and by identifying as something other than male or female, although it's incorrect, your not causing anyone else harm or problems. You can call yourself a third gender and ask for me to call you xe, zhe, zhem whatever you want, as long as what you are doing isn't causing harm to others I'm happy to accept you and let you live your life believing that you are whatever you want to think you are.

Obviously if you are intersex or trans that's a totally different issue, but from what I know most intersex people happily identity as either male or female, and the only trans person I know in real life thinks that everything queer that isn't either l, g, b or t is completly made up, tumblr first world problem nonsense.

East Sashimi wrote:

Furious Grandmothers wrote:Well, fuck. Fucking fuckety fuck.

Scientific proof that reject what claim? What kind of scientific proof to you want? Is the fact that there are intersex people and people with other combinations of the sex chromosomes other than XX and XY good? Probably not, since sex isn't gender. Oh well.

Also, your fears of name-calling, ad hominems, warnings and thread-locking are unfounded.

I just thought since this place has to be suitable for 13 year olds the 'f' word would be a bit innapropriate.
Also way to strawman there. I asked for scientific proof that non-binary genders exist and then you say something about intersex people which isn't really relevant and then tell me sex =/= gender, which I thought we already knew.

Also to the other person who said my views are ludicrous, if not believing in a concept about how gender works which has no scientific proof, and which is pretty much only believed by a few extreme left LGBT people is ludicrous then well I'm glad to be ludicrous.

Furious Grandmothers wrote:Probably not, since sex isn't gender. Oh well.

East Sashimi wrote:

Grenartia wrote:
1. And you need to sit down and fucking realize that "innapropriate words" aren't against PG-13.

2. Would a link to the APA confirming the existence of non-binary gender work?
http://www.apa.org/topics/sexuality/transgender.aspx

This is proof that some people think they aren't male or female, not that non-binary genders exist and frankly I find it insulting to trans people that this article basically says everyone who doesn't conform to the norms about gender has the option to use the label 'trans'.

Johnw9171 wrote:DNA. XX. XY. Even if there's a genetic defect, a Y means male and no Y means female.

The Steel Magnolia wrote:Actually that's not true.

There are, more or less, three definitions of sex used in biology: genetic sex, gonadal sex, and phenotypic sex.

Genetic sex is the ~chromosomes~ one. In mammals, the Y chromosome normally contains a gene named SRY, which is the main trigger that causes a fetus to begin developing along a male pathway. Occasionally, due to random errors in the process of copying DNA, an SRY gene can fall off a Y chromosome or even jump over to an X chromosome: this is one of the ways you get people with XX chromosomes who develop physically as male, or people with XY chromosomes who develop physically as female. (There are other ways too, related to other genetic or environmental factors.) Now, the thing about genetic sex is that it's not actually used all that often by working biologists outside of the field of molecular genetics -- there's usually no point looking at chromosomes if what you're interested in is anatomy or biochemistry. So chromosomal sex is by no means the final word on whether we call an organism "male" or "female".

Gonadal sex is probably the one that gets used most often by biologists when they're identifying whether the unfortunate little critter they've just dissected is male or female: it's whether an animal has testes, ovaries, or something in between. While we don't yet have the technology to give trans women ovaries or trans men testes, long-term hormone therapy does render the birth gonads mostly non-functional, and of course they can also be surgically removed.

Phenotypic sex is the one that's of most interest to you and me in our daily lives. It refers to the development of sexually dimorphic characteristics, such as genital organs, and facial and body hair. It's mostly influenced by sex hormones, and there's a great deal that modern medicine can do to bring a trans person's sexual characteristics closer to their target sex than their birth sex. Phenotypic sex is just as biologically valid a definition of sex as the other two, and unless you're planning to either perform medical procedures on someone or have kids with them, it's the only one that's likely to have much relevance to you when you interact with other people.

Finally, we humans add an extra layer on top of all this, which we call gender. Gender includes all of the standards that are used in a society to differentiate men from women (and other genders, in cultures or subcultures that recognise more than two genders). Some of the characteristics by which people are categorised into one gender or another are related to phenotypic sex, but others are purely behavioural -- dress, grooming and so on. There are differences between gender expression and gender, but we won't get into that now.

So when it comes to how we decide whether to call someone a man or a woman, chromosomes are really a very small part of the story. After all, societies were categorising people into genders long before chromosomes were even discovered, and we easily discern whether people are men or women every day without it even occurring to us to look at their chromosomes first.

Johnw9171 wrote:DNA. XX. XY. Even if there's a genetic defect, a Y means male and no Y means female.

The Steel Magnolia wrote:

East Sashimi wrote:
This is proof that some people think they aren't male or female, not that non-binary genders exist and frankly I find it insulting to trans people that this article basically says everyone who doesn't conform to the norms about gender has the option to use the label 'trans'.

Buddy, you're cis. You have no fucking say in what is and isn't insulting to us.

I however, do!

And you know what I find insulting here?

You.

Northern Teljadid wrote:I suppose I recognise them. Still a bit strange to me, but I'll get it.

East Sashimi wrote:

Grenartia wrote:
1. And you need to sit down and fucking realize that "innapropriate words" aren't against PG-13.

2. Would a link to the APA confirming the existence of non-binary gender work?
http://www.apa.org/topics/sexuality/transgender.aspx

This is proof that some people think they aren't male or female, not that non-binary genders exist and frankly I find it insulting to trans people that this article basically says everyone who doesn't conform to the norms about gender has the option to use the label 'trans'.

Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro wrote:

Zweite Alaje wrote:I think it's funny how everyone thinks English is such a flawed language and needs to have all these foreign aspects added to it, or that it "isn't logical". There is no such thing as an illogical language.

Agreed, but...

I wonder what a Wikipedia in Pirahã would be like.

There would be LOOOOOOOOOOTS of effort explaining concepts that to us seem silly.

East Sashimi wrote:

Grenartia wrote:
Hi, I'm androgynous, and I'm neither confused nor "trying to be a special snowflake".

Good for you, as I just said I'm happy for you to call yourself whatever you want, to act like or be whatever you want, I just want you to know that I don't believe you are the gender that you say you are.
I don't dislike you or mean to offend you or anything, its just I don't think there is such thing as an 'androgynous' gender.

Johnw9171 wrote:DNA. XX. XY. Even if there's a genetic defect, a Y means male and no Y means female.