Non-binary genders

[Furious Grandmothers]

Yes, those are the two sexes. But this is about gender.

Gender is derived from sex.

[Luveria]

Yes, those are the two sexes. But this is about gender.

Gender is derived from sex.

lolno.

Come back when you've learned what gender and sex are.

[Meryuma]

Men and Women, that is all.

Yes, those are the two sexes. But this is about gender.

Even there being two sexes is a bit questionable.

Yes, those are the two sexes. But this is about gender.

Gender is derived from sex.

Explain trans people, and cultures with traditional "third genders".

[Anachronous Rex]

Yes, those are the two sexes. But this is about gender.

Gender is derived from sex.

Babies are derived from sex.

Gender is derived from socialization.

[Imperial Nilfgaard]

Yes, those are the two sexes. But this is about gender.

Even there being two sexes is a bit questionable.

Gender is derived from sex.

Explain trans people, and cultures with traditional "third genders".

They are cultural or social constructions.

[Dyakovo]

Even there being two sexes is a bit questionable.



Explain trans people, and cultures with traditional "third genders".

They are cultural or social constructions.

Yes, gender is a cultural/social construct.

[Imperial Nilfgaard]

They are cultural or social constructions.

Yes, gender is a cultural/social construct.

Indeed. But male and female are not because thats human anatomy.

[Dyakovo]

Yes, gender is a cultural/social construct.

Indeed. But male and female are not because thats human anatomy.

You realize that you are now arguing against what you just said, yes?
Gender is a social construct that has nothing to do with what genitalia you possess.
Sex is biological, and is based on your genetic make-up.

Neither necessarily have any connection to what genitalia you possess.

[Anachronous Rex]

Indeed. But male and female are not because thats human anatomy.

You realize that you are now arguing against what you just said, yes?
Gender is a social construct that has nothing to do with what genitalia you possess.
Sex is biological, and is based on your genetic make-up.

Neither necessarily have any connection to what genitalia you possess.

Alternatively: Sex is gonadal and does not necessarily have any connection to your genetic make up.

Two ways of saying the same thing, really.

[Dyakovo]

You realize that you are now arguing against what you just said, yes?
Gender is a social construct that has nothing to do with what genitalia you possess.
Sex is biological, and is based on your genetic make-up.

Neither necessarily have any connection to what genitalia you possess.

Alternatively: Sex is gonadal and does not necessarily have any connection to your genetic make up.

Two ways of saying the same thing, really.

True.

[Susurruses]

[Lots of things that didn't answer questions]

Yeah, nothing you said justifies harassment.
Regardless of comparative severity.

And, yet again, you've not actually justified labelling it "transphobic".
Merely existing does not imply opposition.
Sharing some traits does not imply opposition.
Asking for recognition and respect does not imply opposition.

And what's that nonsense about "gender is self-determined" ?
That seems to run against the evidence supporting its status as (at least partially) innate.

Ethnicity could also be argued to be self-determined.
If it isn't then it's socially-enforced, & I'm not a big fan of coercion.
With the hypothetical given, what's inhibiting someone of a different race inhabiting the same ethnic group?
Or simply identifying with it more than they do their "own" group?
(Assuming that everything with "trans" as a prefix is automatically transphobic is hyperbolic at best)
[As for "really black", ethnic group actually isn't tied to racial group as strongly as some might think. One could consider there to be "blacks" as a racial group & the black community to be an ethnic group that is separate yet overlapping.]

Anyways, not important.
(The point about transethnicity is it's not necessarily so simplistic as dismissing everyone as racist or transphobic.)

Bringing up relative oppression is inherently fallacious.
It's an emotive appeal and an argument of degrees rather than actually justifying your position.
If you were neutral towards such identities rather than outright antagonistic then it might be considered a justified argument, but "This is less important" is not the same stance as "This is harmful to [x] cause because [x] has it worse & thus I'm going to attack it at every turn".

It's also rather disappointing that you express a desire for death before action is taken.
Isn't that contrary to the whole notion of preventing such hostility and discrimination?
Saying "Some people get killed" isn't an excuse to non-lethally harm someone.

As for equating the positions, I already brought up transhumanism and transfer of consciousness as pertinent to such individuals.
In much the same way as some trans* individuals want their outer self to reflect their inner self, so would the "purely philosophical" individuals.
Just because you can't see it so clearly (not that that's necessarily the case with trans* folk either) doesn't mean it doesn't exist or isn't part of them or is "all in their heads".

All I'm seeing is reasonings for why they shouldn't be compared in severity.
Nothing that justifies saying it's hatred (which is what labelling it transphobic is saying).
And I still don't see how it "appropriates" anything other than sharing aspects of the same language.

I know you're personally invested and all, but your responses to such statements and stances indicate knee-jerk emotion rather than considered reason.
(It seems to conflict with your prior observed behaviour, & I do get that it's an important issue but sometimes we wind up so caught up in causes that we lose objectivity.)
[I don't know, maybe I'm being too optimistic in asking for compassion and understanding and basic respect between people?]

[Neutraligon]

Indeed. But male and female are not because thats human anatomy.

You realize that you are now arguing against what you just said, yes?
Gender is a social construct that has nothing to do with what genitalia you possess.
Sex is biological, and is based on your genetic make-up.

Neither necessarily have any connection to what genitalia you possess.

I would claim that gender is also biological, since the brain is biological, and what determines how we self identify.

[Pagan Hungary]

In a ever growing liberal world it feels like there is going to be a massive amount of new genders due to the fact that people can do what they want; I personally only recognize the genders of male & female and whatever it's called if you're a hermaphrodite. I realize that not all people of the same sex feel the same; and that these new genders have been made to make them fit in. I just think having 3 genders in my beliefs suites me; not everyone of the same sex is neuro-typical with each other. Some will always feel like they're someone else, and that they don't identify with their current gender and / or sex; it's just difficult to be able to draw the line to what people can claim what is a completely different gender.

[Neutraligon]

In a ever growing liberal world it feels like there is going to be a massive amount of new genders due to the fact that people can do what they want; I personally only recognize the genders of male & female and whatever it's called if you're a hermaphrodite. I realize that not all people of the same sex feel the same; and that these new genders have been made to make them fit in. I just think having 3 genders in my beliefs suites me; not everyone of the same sex is neuro-typical with each other. Some will always feel like they're someone else, and that they don't identify with their current gender and / or sex; it's just difficult to be able to draw the line to what people can claim what is a completely different gender.

Gender and sex are not the same thing.

[Pagan Hungary]

In a ever growing liberal world it feels like there is going to be a massive amount of new genders due to the fact that people can do what they want; I personally only recognize the genders of male & female and whatever it's called if you're a hermaphrodite. I realize that not all people of the same sex feel the same; and that these new genders have been made to make them fit in. I just think having 3 genders in my beliefs suites me; not everyone of the same sex is neuro-typical with each other. Some will always feel like they're someone else, and that they don't identify with their current gender and / or sex; it's just difficult to be able to draw the line to what people can claim what is a completely different gender.

Gender and sex are not the same thing.

Never said that, I spent a while trying to make sure it wouldn't come out like that, but I guess it's difficult to write an opinion going against the flow. I am just saying that the traditional one gender to one sex doesn't make everyone comfortable it's just a issue to be able to define a new unique gender.

[Neutraligon]

Gender and sex are not the same thing.

Never said that, I spent a while trying to make sure it wouldn't come out like that, but I guess it's difficult to write an opinion going against the flow. I am just saying that the traditional one gender to one sex doesn't make everyone comfortable it's just a issue to be able to define a new unique gender.

Why is it an issue? Gender is solely how one thinks of oneself. So I, who do not think of myself as a man, woman, or any other gender, am genderless.

[Trollgaard]

Never said that, I spent a while trying to make sure it wouldn't come out like that, but I guess it's difficult to write an opinion going against the flow. I am just saying that the traditional one gender to one sex doesn't make everyone comfortable it's just a issue to be able to define a new unique gender.

Why is it an issue? Gender is solely how one thinks of oneself. So I, who do not think of myself as a man, woman, or any other gender, am genderless.

...

That does not compute.

[Bottle]

Never said that, I spent a while trying to make sure it wouldn't come out like that, but I guess it's difficult to write an opinion going against the flow. I am just saying that the traditional one gender to one sex doesn't make everyone comfortable it's just a issue to be able to define a new unique gender.

Why is it an issue? Gender is solely how one thinks of oneself. So I, who do not think of myself as a man, woman, or any other gender, am genderless.

Most people determine how they will treat you in large part based on your gender, and are profoundly uncomfortable if they aren't given gender cues to tell them where you rank in the social hierarchy.

[Neutraligon]

Why is it an issue? Gender is solely how one thinks of oneself. So I, who do not think of myself as a man, woman, or any other gender, am genderless.

...

That does not compute.

How so? I don't see myself as a man or a woman or as any other third gender. I don't have a gender and therefor am considered genderless (in the same way an asexual is a sexual orientation).

[Trollgaard]

...

That does not compute.

How so? I don't see myself as a man or a woman or as any other third gender. I don't have a gender and therefor am considered genderless (in the same way an asexual is a sexual orientation).

I simply don't see how you actually think that.

Wouldn't you just be a really androgynous man/woman, and not genderless?

[Neutraligon]

Why is it an issue? Gender is solely how one thinks of oneself. So I, who do not think of myself as a man, woman, or any other gender, am genderless.

Most people determine how they will treat you in large part based on your gender, and are profoundly uncomfortable if they aren't given gender cues to tell them where you rank in the social hierarchy.

I haven't faced that issue, but then my gender expression tends to be female (at least in how I dress) so I guess they place me that way. On most forums I go to thoguh, I am always mistaken for a man and people are often shocked when I tell them technically I am a female(sex).

[Neutraligon]

How so? I don't see myself as a man or a woman or as any other third gender. I don't have a gender and therefor am considered genderless (in the same way an asexual is a sexual orientation).

I simply don't see how you actually think that.

Wouldn't you just be a really androgynous man/woman, and not genderless?

Androgynous means some sort of combination of man and woman. I am not a combination of any gender.

[Trollgaard]

I simply don't see how you actually think that.

Wouldn't you just be a really androgynous man/woman, and not genderless?

Androgynous means some sort of combination of man and woman. I am not a combination of any gender.

That I just don't understand.

[Bottle]

Most people determine how they will treat you in large part based on your gender, and are profoundly uncomfortable if they aren't given gender cues to tell them where you rank in the social hierarchy.

I haven't faced that issue, but then my gender expression tends to be female (at least in how I dress) so I guess they place me that way. On most forums I go to thoguh, I am always mistaken for a man and people are often shocked when I tell them technically I am a female(sex).

Ditto. It would be lovely if I had a body which reflected my internal genderlessness, but my build and features are such that it would take a tremendous amount of work to appear as anything other than a woman. And I just can't be arsed.

This is actually one of the only places online where I am "out" as being biologically female, since one of the major things I enjoy about being online is that I don't have to have gender imposed on me the way I do in meatspace.

[Pagan Hungary]

I simply don't see how you actually think that.

Wouldn't you just be a really androgynous man/woman, and not genderless?

Androgynous means some sort of combination of man and woman. I am not a combination of any gender.

Don't want to come off offensively but it does exclude you from a lot of society as many people may not know who you are. You have a right to believe what you want and all that business and I wish you luck with it. I am just glad that no one here is demanding that all these other genders be recognized by everyone else when there is a minute minority that believes in it and that it is theoretically simple to fabricate / create a gender these days. I'm happy at least that this thread hasn't become one where others are forcing beliefs.