Non-binary genders

[Grenartia]

I'm going to be the first person in this thread to say that I believe that there are only two genders: male and female.

Then you are an evil transphobic monster, apparently.

Not necessarily evil, nor a monster, but yes, transphobic.

Then you are an evil transphobic monster, apparently.

Do you not know what transphobia is? Obviously not. Ignorance and bigotry go hand in hand.

From your sig:

"I'm a: Christian, Australian, Reaganist, moderate libertarian, Zionist and USA-lover."

I take it you're one of those who says only two genders exist?

Don't embarrass yourself, Luv.

You'd find that same underlined word in MY sig.

So please, in the future, kindly refrain from generalizing all Christians as bigoted, ignorant, and transphobic, thank you.

And you know this because you are everyone.

I'm sorry, I don't think I can forgive you at this point no matter how much I would like to. Maybe at some point down the road, but not right now. And I think I've made my decision. Arguing with you is obviously not going to change anything, so I'm bowing out.

Feel free to do so.

I'm just not terribly sympathetic to people who decide it's fun to piss all over my people, intentionally or not.

You're Canadian, right? *pisses all over Canadians*

Way to avoid the arguement...

Good god, there's an ARGUMENT buried under that grammar and punctuation carnage??!! Someone call for the jaws of life, we've got to get him out of there before he smothers!!!!

This is getting sigged.

[Luveria]

Do you not know what transphobia is? Obviously not. Ignorance and bigotry go hand in hand.

From your sig:

"I'm a: Christian, Australian, Reaganist, moderate libertarian, Zionist and USA-lover."

I take it you're one of those who says only two genders exist?

Don't embarrass yourself, Luv.

You'd find that same underlined word in MY sig.

So please, in the future, kindly refrain from generalizing all Christians as bigoted, ignorant, and transphobic, thank you.

You misunderstand. I have no issue with Christians and I see no justification from their religion for transphobia. I take issue with the ones using religion as an excuse, as it's a certain crowd I see nearly always hiding behind religious justification for their transphobia.

That's why I asked if he's one of those. I had not generalized all Christians as bigoted, as I'm well aware that isn't true. I'll instead focus on what the poster in question is saying even if I know their reasons for it, which I believe are non-existent ones as I know of many non-transphobic Christians.

You're Canadian, right? *pisses all over Canadians*

As a Canadian, I do not take offence to this.

[Chinese Regions]

I'm not sure what words are used to describe your "tactics" but they are something along the lines of:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leading_question

Good grief. If you insist on playing semantic games then you're going to reap what you sow.

It's this simple:

Most English-speaking intersex people are probably going to be really put off if you call them "hermaphrodites" to their faces. Now you know that. So, if you choose to do it, you are choosing to be rude.

You love putting words into people's mouths don't you?

You can choose to be rude if you want. Watch:

"I think people who toss around the term 'hermaphrodite' are acting like poorly-trained puppies and should be put out in the yard until they learn to stop peeing on the rug."

I knew that was going to be rude. So when people (like you) who want to use 'hermaphrodite' with impunity see my words, they're likely to go, "Hey, that's rude!" And you know what I won't do? I won't sit here and argue that puppies are literally adorable and really they aren't being logical by taking offense and after all it's often an affectionate compliment to compare someone to an adorable small animal and therefore I clearly wasn't being rude.

Because I'm not an infantile rug-piddler.

See how that works?

Now, see "hermaphrodite" is a single word, so "you are taking offence to the wrong part!" argument doesn't work. In this society we will expect words relating to sex, genitalia to be taboo so tossing around "hermaphrodite" would be rude, as rude as shouting "penis" repeatedly. But disregarding that, hermaphrodite is about as derogatory as "invertebrate", "mollusc", it's a biological term, if you feel offence when watching a David Attenborough documentary, who are you going to blame?

[The Steel Magnolia]

Good grief. If you insist on playing semantic games then you're going to reap what you sow.

It's this simple:

Most English-speaking intersex people are probably going to be really put off if you call them "hermaphrodites" to their faces. Now you know that. So, if you choose to do it, you are choosing to be rude.

You love putting words into people's mouths don't you?

You can choose to be rude if you want. Watch:

"I think people who toss around the term 'hermaphrodite' are acting like poorly-trained puppies and should be put out in the yard until they learn to stop peeing on the rug."

I knew that was going to be rude. So when people (like you) who want to use 'hermaphrodite' with impunity see my words, they're likely to go, "Hey, that's rude!" And you know what I won't do? I won't sit here and argue that puppies are literally adorable and really they aren't being logical by taking offense and after all it's often an affectionate compliment to compare someone to an adorable small animal and therefore I clearly wasn't being rude.

Because I'm not an infantile rug-piddler.

See how that works?

Now, see "hermaphrodite" is a single word, so "you are taking offence to the wrong part!" argument doesn't work. In this society we will expect words relating to sex, genitalia to be taboo so tossing around "hermaphrodite" would be rude, as rude as shouting "penis" repeatedly. But disregarding that, hermaphrodite is about as derogatory as "invertebrate", "mollusc", it's a biological term, if you feel offence when watching a David Attenborough documentary, who are you going to blame?

So your argument is literally "it's a medical term it can't be offensive??

Seriously, is that your argument?

[Luveria]

Good grief. If you insist on playing semantic games then you're going to reap what you sow.

It's this simple:

Most English-speaking intersex people are probably going to be really put off if you call them "hermaphrodites" to their faces. Now you know that. So, if you choose to do it, you are choosing to be rude.

You love putting words into people's mouths don't you?

You can choose to be rude if you want. Watch:

"I think people who toss around the term 'hermaphrodite' are acting like poorly-trained puppies and should be put out in the yard until they learn to stop peeing on the rug."

I knew that was going to be rude. So when people (like you) who want to use 'hermaphrodite' with impunity see my words, they're likely to go, "Hey, that's rude!" And you know what I won't do? I won't sit here and argue that puppies are literally adorable and really they aren't being logical by taking offense and after all it's often an affectionate compliment to compare someone to an adorable small animal and therefore I clearly wasn't being rude.

Because I'm not an infantile rug-piddler.

See how that works?

Now, see "hermaphrodite" is a single word, so "you are taking offence to the wrong part!" argument doesn't work. In this society we will expect words relating to sex, genitalia to be taboo so tossing around "hermaphrodite" would be rude, as rude as shouting "penis" repeatedly. But disregarding that, hermaphrodite is about as derogatory as "invertebrate", "mollusc", it's a biological term, if you feel offence when watching a David Attenborough documentary, who are you going to blame?

When referring to people, it's rude to use the word "hermaphrodite" when you can easily say "intersex" instead.

I posted a link earlier explaining the difference between the two words. Other people have tried to explain to you "intersex" is the term to use if you want to be respectful. But you keep ignoring all that and acting as if you're not being rude to intersex people at all by repeatedly using the term "hermaphrodite".

[Bottle]

Good grief. If you insist on playing semantic games then you're going to reap what you sow.

It's this simple:

Most English-speaking intersex people are probably going to be really put off if you call them "hermaphrodites" to their faces. Now you know that. So, if you choose to do it, you are choosing to be rude.

You love putting words into people's mouths don't you?

You can choose to be rude if you want. Watch:

"I think people who toss around the term 'hermaphrodite' are acting like poorly-trained puppies and should be put out in the yard until they learn to stop peeing on the rug."

I knew that was going to be rude. So when people (like you) who want to use 'hermaphrodite' with impunity see my words, they're likely to go, "Hey, that's rude!" And you know what I won't do? I won't sit here and argue that puppies are literally adorable and really they aren't being logical by taking offense and after all it's often an affectionate compliment to compare someone to an adorable small animal and therefore I clearly wasn't being rude.

Because I'm not an infantile rug-piddler.

See how that works?

Now, see "hermaphrodite" is a single word, so "you are taking offence to the wrong part!" argument doesn't work. In this society we will expect words relating to sex, genitalia to be taboo so tossing around "hermaphrodite" would be rude, as rude as shouting "penis" repeatedly. But disregarding that, hermaphrodite is about as derogatory as "invertebrate", "mollusc", it's a biological term, if you feel offence when watching a David Attenborough documentary, who are you going to blame?

People are telling you a word is rude.

You seem to think that commanding them to stop finding it rude will have an impact.

That's cute.

You know, "Negro" just means "black." It's not offensive at all!

[Bottle]

You love putting words into people's mouths don't you?

Now, see "hermaphrodite" is a single word, so "you are taking offence to the wrong part!" argument doesn't work. In this society we will expect words relating to sex, genitalia to be taboo so tossing around "hermaphrodite" would be rude, as rude as shouting "penis" repeatedly. But disregarding that, hermaphrodite is about as derogatory as "invertebrate", "mollusc", it's a biological term, if you feel offence when watching a David Attenborough documentary, who are you going to blame?

So your argument is literally "it's a medical term it can't be offensive??

Seriously, is that your argument?

And he's saying it to someone who uses more technical and medical terminology in a day than he is likely to use in a year. That's what I really love.

I hope some day he grows up and goes off to college and discovers that he wants to go pre med. And then after years of hard study, learning lots of big fancy words, he goes off to med school. And then, in his first-year course on the Doctor-Patient relationship, he can helpfully correct the instructor when they try to teach the class that it is rude to refer to your patients in cold, clinical language right to their face, and that if you can't stop yourself from doing so then you should stick to a specialty like radiology where you will be alone in a room away from patients for your entire career.

[Chinese Regions]

You love putting words into people's mouths don't you?

Now, see "hermaphrodite" is a single word, so "you are taking offence to the wrong part!" argument doesn't work. In this society we will expect words relating to sex, genitalia to be taboo so tossing around "hermaphrodite" would be rude, as rude as shouting "penis" repeatedly. But disregarding that, hermaphrodite is about as derogatory as "invertebrate", "mollusc", it's a biological term, if you feel offence when watching a David Attenborough documentary, who are you going to blame?

When referring to people, it's rude to use the word "hermaphrodite" when you can easily say "intersex" instead.

I posted a link earlier explaining the difference between the two words. Other people have tried to explain to you "intersex" is the term to use if you want to be respectful. But you keep ignoring all that and acting as if you're not being rude to intersex people at all by repeatedly using the term "hermaphrodite".

Point to where I have used it to refer to the intersex.
Also, you are now asserting ANY context, merely typing the word is offensive.

[Chinese Regions]

You love putting words into people's mouths don't you?

Now, see "hermaphrodite" is a single word, so "you are taking offence to the wrong part!" argument doesn't work. In this society we will expect words relating to sex, genitalia to be taboo so tossing around "hermaphrodite" would be rude, as rude as shouting "penis" repeatedly. But disregarding that, hermaphrodite is about as derogatory as "invertebrate", "mollusc", it's a biological term, if you feel offence when watching a David Attenborough documentary, who are you going to blame?

People are telling you a word is rude.

You seem to think that commanding them to stop finding it rude will have an impact.

That's cute.

You know, "Negro" just means "black." It's not offensive at all!

No, it's more like "Negro", when used to refer to those of African descent, is offensive. On it's own it is not, it can be the colour "black" in another language.
Or a closer example that remains in English:
Chinese people may find it offensive when you call them "Japanese", "Japanese" itself is not.

[Luveria]

When referring to people, it's rude to use the word "hermaphrodite" when you can easily say "intersex" instead.

I posted a link earlier explaining the difference between the two words. Other people have tried to explain to you "intersex" is the term to use if you want to be respectful. But you keep ignoring all that and acting as if you're not being rude to intersex people at all by repeatedly using the term "hermaphrodite".

Point to where I have used it to refer to the intersex.

When did I say you did that? Stop these childish games of yours. You're saying hermaphrodite isn't an offensive term to use when referring to people. I, and others are telling you it is offensive.

It's not going to get you anywhere bringing up your silly questions entirely unrelated to what I'm saying.

Also, you are now asserting ANY context, merely typing the word is offensive.

Stop making up things. It's not making you look any better when I can easily disprove your claims. At this point you can admit you're been wrong.

When referring to people, it's rude to use the word "hermaphrodite" when you can easily say "intersex" instead.

[Luveria]

People are telling you a word is rude.

You seem to think that commanding them to stop finding it rude will have an impact.

That's cute.

You know, "Negro" just means "black." It's not offensive at all!

No, it's more like "Negro", when used to refer to those of African descent, is offensive. On it's own it is not, it can be the colour "black" in another language.

Not one person here has said the term "hermaphrodite" itself is offensive. It's when it is used to refer to intersex people, it's offensive.

Or a closer example that remains in English:
Chinese people may find it offensive when you call them "Japanese", "Japanese" itself is not.

Unrelated.

[Neutraligon]

Point to where I have used it to refer to the intersex.

When did I say you did that? Stop these childish games of yours. You're saying hermaphrodite isn't an offensive term to use when referring to people. I, and others are telling you it is offensive.

It's not going to get you anywhere bringing up your silly questions entirely unrelated to what I'm saying.

Also, you are now asserting ANY context, merely typing the word is offensive.

Stop making up things. It's not making you look any better when I can easily disprove your claims. At this point you can admit you're been wrong.

When referring to people, it's rude to use the word "hermaphrodite" when you can easily say "intersex" instead.

It's kinda like using the word it to describe humans. Using the word it to describe things is not in any way offensive, but using the word it to describe humans is very offensive. Similarly using hermaphrodite to describe non humans is not offensive, but once that word is applied to humans it becomes offensive.

[Bottle]

When did I say you did that? Stop these childish games of yours. You're saying hermaphrodite isn't an offensive term to use when referring to people. I, and others are telling you it is offensive.

It's not going to get you anywhere bringing up your silly questions entirely unrelated to what I'm saying.


Stop making up things. It's not making you look any better when I can easily disprove your claims. At this point you can admit you're been wrong.

It's kinda like using the word it to describe humans. Using the word it to describe things is not in any way offensive, but using the word it to describe humans is very offensive. Similarly using hermaphrodite to describe non humans is not offensive, but once that word is applied to humans it becomes offensive.

And, indeed, hermaphrodite is offensive for almost precisely the same reason that "it" is offensive when applied to a person.

But I suppose now we're in for a lecture on why "it" is just a genderless pronoun and there's no reason for anybody to take offense if they are referred to as "it"...

I think I'll go make another pot of coffee.

[Neutraligon]

It's kinda like using the word it to describe humans. Using the word it to describe things is not in any way offensive, but using the word it to describe humans is very offensive. Similarly using hermaphrodite to describe non humans is not offensive, but once that word is applied to humans it becomes offensive.

And, indeed, hermaphrodite is offensive for almost precisely the same reason that "it" is offensive when applied to a person.

But I suppose now we're in for a lecture on why "it" is just a genderless pronoun and there's no reason for anybody to take offense if they are referred to as "it"...

I think I'll go make another pot of coffee.

Do I get an internet? Oh and, passes over the tea (sorry don't have coffee). I still do not understand what is the problem with using the word intersex either. If people do not like you using the term hermaphrodite to describe them, then don't use that word. It really isn't that hard.

[Bottle]

And, indeed, hermaphrodite is offensive for almost precisely the same reason that "it" is offensive when applied to a person.

But I suppose now we're in for a lecture on why "it" is just a genderless pronoun and there's no reason for anybody to take offense if they are referred to as "it"...

I think I'll go make another pot of coffee.

Do I get an internet? Oh and, passes over the tea (sorry don't have coffee). I still do not understand what is the problem with using the word intersex either. If people do not like you using the term hermaphrodite to describe them, then don't use that word. It really isn't that hard.

I don't get what ANY of the big fucking deal is.

There are just some people who cannot seem to fucking handle the concept of addressing people in the manner that they request. I have no idea what catastrophic failure of socialization has to occur to cause this, but whatever it is, it's way too common.

I often encounter it with people who keep trying to address me as "Mrs." Even if I were married, it would still be fucking rude to keep using that title for me after I specifically correct you, and it's made even more rude by the fact that I have earned the title of Doctor, AND the fact that I almost always invite people to use my first name instead of fumbling with my long last name, so they are literally going way the fuck out of their way just to be insulting. It's like the conservatives who say "Democrat Party" instead of "Democratic Party" as their petty little way of asserting dominance or something.

Call people by the name they use. Call people by the title they use. Call people by the pronoun they use. This is not rocket surgery.

[Neutraligon]

Do I get an internet? Oh and, passes over the tea (sorry don't have coffee). I still do not understand what is the problem with using the word intersex either. If people do not like you using the term hermaphrodite to describe them, then don't use that word. It really isn't that hard.

I don't get what ANY of the big fucking deal is.

There are just some people who cannot seem to fucking handle the concept of addressing people in the manner that they request. I have no idea what catastrophic failure of socialization has to occur to cause this, but whatever it is, it's way too common.

I often encounter it with people who keep trying to address me as "Mrs." Even if I were married, it would still be fucking rude to keep using that title for me after I specifically correct you, and it's made even more rude by the fact that I have earned the title of Doctor, AND the fact that I almost always invite people to use my first name instead of fumbling with my long last name, so they are literally going way the fuck out of their way just to be insulting. It's like the conservatives who say "Democrat Party" instead of "Democratic Party" as their petty little way of asserting dominance or something.

Call people by the name they use. Call people by the title they use. Call people by the pronoun they use. This is not rocket surgery.

I don't get it either. I was taught to call everyone I just met Ms. or Mr. and then change when they corrected me. If they wanted to be called by their first name, who am I to argue?

[Chinese Regions]

Point to where I have used it to refer to the intersex.

When did I say you did that? Stop these childish games of yours. You're saying hermaphrodite isn't an offensive term to use when referring to people. I, and others are telling you it is offensive.

It's not going to get you anywhere bringing up your silly questions entirely unrelated to what I'm saying.

Nope, I haven't said that at all, I have said "hermaphrodite is not inherently derogatory", "hermaphrodite" (assuming anything related to sex, genitalia aren't taboo) is not a rude word by itself like "faggot" or "nigger" are.

Also, you are now asserting ANY context, merely typing the word is offensive.

Stop making up things. It's not making you look any better when I can easily disprove your claims. At this point you can admit you're been wrong.

When referring to people, it's rude to use the word "hermaphrodite" when you can easily say "intersex" instead.

But you keep ignoring all that and acting as if you're not being rude to intersex people at all by repeatedly using the term "hermaphrodite".

What have I repeatedly used hermaphrodite for? Not for humans, stop making things up.

[Paixao]

People are people, Dammit!

Can everybody please just stop labeling themselves!?

All I need is a name, and half the time I'll need you to repeat that at least half a dozen times before I remember it - I have a terrible memory.

Anyway, illogical rant over.

Please ignore post.

[Luveria]

When did I say you did that? Stop these childish games of yours. You're saying hermaphrodite isn't an offensive term to use when referring to people. I, and others are telling you it is offensive.

It's not going to get you anywhere bringing up your silly questions entirely unrelated to what I'm saying.

Nope, I haven't said that at all, I have said "hermaphrodite is not inherently derogatory", "hermaphrodite" (assuming anything related to sex, genitalia aren't taboo) is not a rude word by itself like "faggot" or "nigger" are.

No one is saying it is...

What have I repeatedly used hermaphrodite for? Not for humans, stop making things up.

I haven't said you did. Nice try, but it didn't work this time either.

People are people, Dammit!

Can everybody please just stop labeling themselves!?

All I need is a name, and half the time I'll need you to repeat that at least half a dozen times before I remember it - I have a terrible memory.

Anyway, illogical rant over.

Please ignore post.

No. Gender exists. When you ask people to stop labelling themselves the effect is dismissing any genders other than male or female.

If someone feels they have the genders of male and female and they call themselves bigender since that's what they are, do you have a problem with them self-identifying with that 'label'? When you ask people to stop 'labelling' themselves, you're telling them to put a cork in their mouth and keep quiet about their non-binary genders.

[Grenartia]

Don't embarrass yourself, Luv.

You'd find that same underlined word in MY sig.

So please, in the future, kindly refrain from generalizing all Christians as bigoted, ignorant, and transphobic, thank you.

You misunderstand. I have no issue with Christians and I see no justification from their religion for transphobia. I take issue with the ones using religion as an excuse, as it's a certain crowd I see nearly always hiding behind religious justification for their transphobia.

That's why I asked if he's one of those. I had not generalized all Christians as bigoted, as I'm well aware that isn't true. I'll instead focus on what the poster in question is saying even if I know their reasons for it, which I believe are non-existent ones as I know of many non-transphobic Christians.

You're Canadian, right? *pisses all over Canadians*

As a Canadian, I do not take offence to this.

But they didn't even use Christianity as a justification for anything. Hell, they didn't even mention Christianity at all!

You love putting words into people's mouths don't you?

Now, see "hermaphrodite" is a single word, so "you are taking offence to the wrong part!" argument doesn't work. In this society we will expect words relating to sex, genitalia to be taboo so tossing around "hermaphrodite" would be rude, as rude as shouting "penis" repeatedly. But disregarding that, hermaphrodite is about as derogatory as "invertebrate", "mollusc", it's a biological term, if you feel offence when watching a David Attenborough documentary, who are you going to blame?

People are telling you a word is rude.

You seem to think that commanding them to stop finding it rude will have an impact.

That's cute.

You know, "Negro" just means "black." It's not offensive at all!

Damn negroes taking offense to being called negroes...

People are telling you a word is rude.

You seem to think that commanding them to stop finding it rude will have an impact.

That's cute.

You know, "Negro" just means "black." It's not offensive at all!

No, it's more like "Negro", when used to refer to those of African descent, is offensive. On it's own it is not, it can be the colour "black" in another language.
Or a closer example that remains in English:
Chinese people may find it offensive when you call them "Japanese", "Japanese" itself is not.

Considering that true hermaphroditism is impossible in humans, calling humans hermaphrodites is not really that different from calling Chinese people "Japanese".

[Luveria]

But they didn't even use Christianity as a justification for anything. Hell, they didn't even mention Christianity at all!

There was another poster or two denying other genders and having a similar enough sig, so it appeared to be a group of the Religious Right which is why I mentioned it. I'll refrain from mentioning sig related things unless necessary.

[Paixao]

People are people, Dammit!

Can everybody please just stop labeling themselves!?

All I need is a name, and half the time I'll need you to repeat that at least half a dozen times before I remember it - I have a terrible memory.

Anyway, illogical rant over.

Please ignore post.

No. Gender exists. When you ask people to stop labelling themselves the effect is dismissing any genders other than male or female.

If someone feels they have the genders of male and female and they call themselves bigender since that's what they are, do you have a problem with them self-identifying with that 'label'? When you ask people to stop 'labelling' themselves, you're telling them to put a cork in their mouth and keep quiet about their non-binary genders.

You've misinterpreted what I meant to say.

I don't care much what a person wants to call themselves. In fact I really don't care at all. I will treat all people equally. As far as I'm concerned, we can abolish the existence of the concept of 'identifying with a gender' completely. Completely. No 'male' or 'female' either.

How much I like a person has very little to do with what you identify as. Whether I find people physically attractive, once again, has very little to do with their gender (and, I've found, is often more linked to biological sex)

In essence, what I am saying is sure people should have the right to call themselves whatever the hell they like, but the more labels people impose on themselves the more annoyed other people are going to become. We need society to change so that people don't feel the need to keep making boxes for themselves so they can feel comfortable being themselves. At the end of the day, we're all just people. Nothing more, nothing less.

Anyway, I've dug a hole for myself where I look evil and don't agree with half of what I'm saying now so yeah.

Blame my poor memory.

[Luveria]

No. Gender exists. When you ask people to stop labelling themselves the effect is dismissing any genders other than male or female.

If someone feels they have the genders of male and female and they call themselves bigender since that's what they are, do you have a problem with them self-identifying with that 'label'? When you ask people to stop 'labelling' themselves, you're telling them to put a cork in their mouth and keep quiet about their non-binary genders.

You've misinterpreted what I meant to say.

I only interpreted it by how it looked at face value.

I don't care much what a person wants to call themselves. In fact I really don't care at all. I will treat all people equally. As far as I'm concerned, we can abolish the existence of the concept of 'identifying with a gender' completely. Completely. No 'male' or 'female' either.

You can't abolish something that innately exists in humans. Preventing gender development is impossible since it occurs naturally from a very young age.

How much I like a person has very little to do with what you identify as. Whether I find people physically attractive, once again, has very little to do with their gender (and, I've found, is often more linked to biological sex)

Gender isn't physical, so I don't see what you're saying.

In essence, what I am saying is sure people should have the right to call themselves whatever the hell they like, but the more labels people impose on themselves the more annoyed other people are going to become. We need society to change so that people don't feel the need to keep making boxes for themselves so they can feel comfortable being themselves. At the end of the day, we're all just people. Nothing more, nothing less.

I notice you keep referring to other genders as labels, as if it's something less than a proper gender. It's not my problem if people get annoyed by a minority of those who self-identify as non-binary genders.

You have it entirely backwards. The problem with society is when there's a group of people insisting there's no need for 'labels'. You're preventing people from being comfortable as themselves when you're not letting them exist.

There are various genders other than male and female, and wanting people to act like they don't exist isn't treating people equally. You're advocating discrimination against everyone who identifies as a gender other than male or female, and you somehow do it in the name of equality.

Anyway, I've dug a hole for myself where I look evil and don't agree with half of what I'm saying now so yeah.

Blame my poor memory.

It doesn't help when you're insisting gender doesn't matter.

[Bottle]

No. Gender exists. When you ask people to stop labelling themselves the effect is dismissing any genders other than male or female.

If someone feels they have the genders of male and female and they call themselves bigender since that's what they are, do you have a problem with them self-identifying with that 'label'? When you ask people to stop 'labelling' themselves, you're telling them to put a cork in their mouth and keep quiet about their non-binary genders.

You've misinterpreted what I meant to say.

I don't care much what a person wants to call themselves. In fact I really don't care at all. I will treat all people equally. As far as I'm concerned, we can abolish the existence of the concept of 'identifying with a gender' completely. Completely. No 'male' or 'female' either.

How much I like a person has very little to do with what you identify as. Whether I find people physically attractive, once again, has very little to do with their gender (and, I've found, is often more linked to biological sex)

In essence, what I am saying is sure people should have the right to call themselves whatever the hell they like, but the more labels people impose on themselves the more annoyed other people are going to become. We need society to change so that people don't feel the need to keep making boxes for themselves so they can feel comfortable being themselves. At the end of the day, we're all just people. Nothing more, nothing less.

Anyway, I've dug a hole for myself where I look evil and don't agree with half of what I'm saying now so yeah.

Blame my poor memory.

I believe you are coming from a good place. I don't think you intend to come off as a jerk.

I think where you are going wrong is your nebulous statement that "we need society to change" coupled with talking about how people "should" be able to feel about their identity. This comes across as suspect. It sounds a lot like the people who are currently arguing in another thread that "we" shouldn't use labels for ethnicities because somehow if "we" stop using terms for different racial groups then this will magically cause racism to disappear. It comes across like you are another person who thinks you can blithely state that YOU don't see color (or gender, or whatever) and therefore problem solved.

To a person who is dealing with transphobia on a routine basis, this seems like trivializes the issue and is just another person dismissively saying that if "we" stop talking about the problem then it will go away. (Which is true for all the privileged people who only have to be aware of the problem if someone else brings it up, but not true for any of the people who live the problem on a day-to-day basis.)

I repeat: I do not think you actually intend to communicate a dismissive attitude. I just think you will have more success in the future if you include statements about how you want to achieve the better world that you describe, and particularly if you talk about what you, personally, are doing to help make that better world a reality.

[Dyakovo]

I'll take you lack of response as you dont have one....

Give it a few minutes...

And uh, am I the only one who isn't sure what his argument is? I couldn't understand his post.

No, you aren't.

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You do realise the brain is a physical object, right?
That alone nukes your entire misguided assumption that "a real trans* person has to get surgery & they aren't legitimately trans* until then".

So is my arm....

This is not what I'm trying to convey. Both have a thought and this thought makes them another gender or something else entirely. However, biologically they are what they are until they take steps to change this physically. A Trans-Geneder person can scream that they are the opposite all day, but in the end when you take their jimmies off the truth comes out. A thought is not a physical object... it is not tangible.

Trans-Gender people "think" they are another gender but this thought will not change biology. We as a society accept their stated desire out of tolerence and respect for life, so why should we deny people like Arcturus the chance to exercise the same? If you argue for one, you must argue for the other, if you don't you only invalidate yourself.

Gender and sex are two different things.