Abortion and Capital Punishment

[The ivain isles]

As in the fetus of a human can be only human ?

It has the potential to be human.

But it isn't until it can survive outside the mother's womb.

Or how about this?

Answer my question, if you would:

What, in your opinion, makes the fetus a human being?

The fact it can't be an antelope?

[Blasveck]

What bullshit is this?

Again,
A person is an individual that is ascribed certain rights and obligations based off of their capacity to comprehend and act upon them.
The intellectually disabled, may, depending on their level of disability, may not have the capacity to comprehend or act on them, should they therefore not possess their Miranda rights, due to your definition of person?

The intellectually disabled have their rights, because we say they do.

Not because of their capacity to understand them or not.

We give the intellectually disabled their Miranda rights, even if they cannot comprehend them because they are human and deserve them.

What does Miranda rights have to do with abortion anyways?

[Solarys]

As in the fetus of a human can be only human ?

It has the potential to be human.

But it isn't until it can survive outside the mother's womb.

Or how about this?

Answer my question, if you would:

What, in your opinion, makes the fetus a human being?

Because it grows up to be one. It is like asking what makes the butterfly larvae considered to be of the same species as the butterfly.

[Blasveck]

It has the potential to be human.

But it isn't until it can survive outside the mother's womb.

Or how about this?

Answer my question, if you would:

What, in your opinion, makes the fetus a human being?

The fact it can't be an antelope?

Is a chicken egg a chicken?

Or is it simply an egg?

[ALMF]

A mother?
Which doesn't make it human, it has the POTENTIAL to turn into a person.
The other option, of course, is that it dies/aborted.

2) It doesn't make it anything other than human if it is a human fetus. They do not become antelopes.

3) Which is basically the same as killing a human being as you are killing something that can fully form into a adult human. It is no different from killing babies. Sure you can argue the sentience/sapience part, but just that doesn't make something human (A.I for eg) and not having that doesn't make its life any less important either, especially if it can grow up to be an actual human being with those qualities.

2) not an antelope an vestigial organ: an appendix or kidney.

3) so a haircut is mass murder (Any cell can potentially become a person.)?

[The ivain isles]

Again,
A person is an individual that is ascribed certain rights and obligations based off of their capacity to comprehend and act upon them.
The intellectually disabled, may, depending on their level of disability, may not have the capacity to comprehend or act on them, should they therefore not possess their Miranda rights, due to your definition of person?

The intellectually disabled have their rights, because we say they do.

Not because of their capacity to understand them or not.

We give the intellectually disabled their Miranda rights, even if they cannot comprehend them because they are human and deserve them.

What does Miranda rights have to do with abortion anyways?

The debate was about personhood a few pages ago, and I was refuting a definition they gave.

[The ivain isles]

The fact it can't be an antelope?

Is a chicken egg a chicken?

Or is it simply an egg?

The chick is inside the egg, so, the human is inside the foetus? Or is a chick a bird or an animal? Or a creature or stick?
And a disclaimer, is it a GM egg?

[Sociobiology]

A mother?
Which doesn't make it human, it has the POTENTIAL to turn into a person.
The other option, of course, is that it dies/aborted.

1) Not without a fetus forming first inside the said mother.

2) It doesn't make it anything other than human if it is a human fetus. They do not become antelopes.

but more often than not, they don't become baby humans either.

3) Which is basically the same as killing a human being as you are killing something that can fully form into a adult human.

sperm or ova, can be come a fully formed person, should they also have the full rights of an adult?

thanks to current tech, your stomach lining could also become an adult human.

It is no different from killing babies.

which is also allowed when their existence directly parasitically attached to a being with greater potential, see separation of conjoined twins.

Sure you can argue the sentience/sapience part, but just that doesn't make something human (A.I for eg) and not having that doesn't make its life any less important either, especially if it can grow up to be an actual human being with those qualities.

speeking of AI, If we build an electronic intelligence that is just as intelligent, sapient, and sentient as an adult human would it have the same rights as an adult human?
This is very relevent to the discussion at hand.

[Solarys]

Is a chicken egg a chicken?

Or is it simply an egg?

A chicken egg which grows into nothing but a chicken.

2) not an antelope an vestigial organ: an appendix or kidney.

3) so a haircut is mass murder (Any cell can potentially become a person.)?

Please don't take this the wrong way, but more than half the time, i don't understand what you are trying to say, which side you are on, or what you are arguing about.

[Solarys]

1) Not without a fetus forming first inside the said mother.

2) It doesn't make it anything other than human if it is a human fetus. They do not become antelopes.

but more often than not, they don't become baby humans either.

3) Which is basically the same as killing a human being as you are killing something that can fully form into a adult human.

sperm or ova, can be come a fully formed person, should they also have the full rights of an adult?

thanks to current tech, your stomach lining could also become an adult human.

It is no different from killing babies.

which is also allowed when their existence directly parasitically attached to a being with greater potential, see separation of conjoined twins.

Sure you can argue the sentience/sapience part, but just that doesn't make something human (A.I for eg) and not having that doesn't make its life any less important either, especially if it can grow up to be an actual human being with those qualities.

speeking of AI, If we build an electronic intelligence that is just as intelligent, sapient, and sentient as an adult human would it have the same rights as an adult human?
This is very relevent to the discussion at hand.

1) If you an be sure that it won't grow into one, sure abort it.

2) Replace the sperm and ova with a zygote and you got an yes from me.

3) Oh, i am not aware of that. Can you link to a page with information on said tech ?

4) Not if i get to decide. I would still consider an AI as nothing but a bit more advanced computer like the one i am using.

[Blasveck]

Is a chicken egg a chicken?

Or is it simply an egg?

A chicken egg which grows into nothing but a chicken.

2) not an antelope an vestigial organ: an appendix or kidney.

3) so a haircut is mass murder (Any cell can potentially become a person.)?

Please don't take this the wrong way, but more than half the time, i don't understand what you are trying to say, which side you are on, or what you are arguing about.

So why don't we criminalize the selling and eating of chicken eggs?

The chicken egg will develop into a chicken.

[Solarys]

A chicken egg which grows into nothing but a chicken.



Please don't take this the wrong way, but more than half the time, i don't understand what you are trying to say, which side you are on, or what you are arguing about.

So why don't we criminalize the selling and eating of chicken eggs?

The chicken egg will develop into a chicken.

If selling and eating chickens are criminalized, i don't see why not. If they have been, i didn't get the memo

[The ivain isles]

A chicken egg which grows into nothing but a chicken.



Please don't take this the wrong way, but more than half the time, i don't understand what you are trying to say, which side you are on, or what you are arguing about.

So why don't we criminalize the selling and eating of chicken eggs?

The chicken egg will develop into a chicken.

Why don't we legalise the eating of foetuses?

[Sociobiology]

actually they are assigned an advocate, as Miranda rights are for interrogation.

Yet the rights are still afforded to them, as those who are unable to protect themselves, are afforded special privileges based on that fact.

well if you get right don't to it they really don't since they cannot be legally interrogated, they are incapable of being in full police custody in that manner. they are provided a different set of rights. although this is getting so far down the legal rabbit hole I could be wrong.
Not that maranda rights are the totality of an adult humans rights, either way there are rights enjoyed by adults children do not have.

[Sociobiology]

but more often than not, they don't become baby humans either.


sperm or ova, can be come a fully formed person, should they also have the full rights of an adult?

thanks to current tech, your stomach lining could also become an adult human.


which is also allowed when their existence directly parasitically attached to a being with greater potential, see separation of conjoined twins.


speeking of AI, If we build an electronic intelligence that is just as intelligent, sapient, and sentient as an adult human would it have the same rights as an adult human?
This is very relevent to the discussion at hand.

1) If you an be sure that it won't grow into one, sure abort it.

then all abortion is legal and justified.
so whats the problem?

2) Replace the sperm and ova with a zygote and you got an yes from me.

whats the difference, both are potential humans.

3) Oh, i am not aware of that. Can you link to a page with information on said tech ?

you have never heard of cloning? or artificial ova?

4) Not if i get to decide. I would still consider an AI as nothing but a bit more advanced computer like the one i am using.

which is telling that you would consider something with the faculties of an adult human to have less moral value and fewer rights than a ball of snot with some human genes in it.

Then by what justification do you deny rights to human tumor or extracted organs?

[The ivain isles]

Yet the rights are still afforded to them, as those who are unable to protect themselves, are afforded special privileges based on that fact.

well if you get right don't to it they really don't since they cannot be legally interrogated, they are incapable of being in full police custody in that manner. they are provided a different set of rights. although this is getting so far down the legal rabbit hole I could be wrong.
Not that maranda rights are the totality of an adult humans rights, either way there are rights enjoyed by adults children do not have.

Indeed, yet an intellectually disabled individual cannot be executed in the US due to the fact they cannot understand the concept of execution, due to their lack of mental development. My point is that certain demographics at specific stages of development are afforded protections due to their inability to understand or comprehend what's going on, and that those special rights and privileges should be afforded to a foetus.

[Sociobiology]

well if you get right don't to it they really don't since they cannot be legally interrogated, they are incapable of being in full police custody in that manner. they are provided a different set of rights. although this is getting so far down the legal rabbit hole I could be wrong.
Not that maranda rights are the totality of an adult humans rights, either way there are rights enjoyed by adults children do not have.

Indeed, yet an intellectually disabled individual cannot be executed in the US due to the fact they cannot understand the concept of execution, due to their lack of mental development. My point is that certain demographics at specific stages of development are afforded protections due to their inability to understand or comprehend what's going on, and that those special rights and privileges should be afforded to a foetus.

it is to the same extent is is given to dogs or cats, which are far more mentally advanced.
their guardian decides.

for the severely mentally handicapped which are much higher on the scale than a fetus, it requires the justification of conflicting with the quality of life of a non-mentally handicapped homo sapien, in which case they can also be terminated.

[Solarys]

whats the difference, both are potential humans.

you have never heard of cloning? or artificial ova?


which is telling that you would consider something with the faculties of an adult human to have less moral value and fewer rights than a ball of snot with some human genes in it.

Then by what justification do you deny rights to human tumor or extracted organs?

1) Sperm/ova needs to fuse with ova/sperm and they are naturally removed from the body.

2) I might/might not be familiar with what you said. And i haven't been keeping myself upto date with it either. Anyway, that is just out of curiosity. You can disregard it if you want.

3) Tumor is deadly and by that logic, if the fetus compromises the life of the mother (as in due to medical reasons) then it should be removed too.

Extracted organs don't grow upto be fully formed human beings, neither do tumors. And what if scenarios are just that, what if.

[The ivain isles]

Indeed, yet an intellectually disabled individual cannot be executed in the US due to the fact they cannot understand the concept of execution, due to their lack of mental development. My point is that certain demographics at specific stages of development are afforded protections due to their inability to understand or comprehend what's going on, and that those special rights and privileges should be afforded to a foetus.

it is to the same extent is is given to dogs or cats, which are far more mentally advanced.
their guardian decides.

Yet the intellectually disabled are wards of the state, are human, and afforded their unalienable right to life, even if they are not fully developed mentally and intellectually.

[Blasveck]

So why don't we criminalize the selling and eating of chicken eggs?

The chicken egg will develop into a chicken.

Why don't we legalise the eating of foetuses?

Because it would violate the bodily rights of a sentient human being, IE The mother?

Why aren't you a vegan?

[Sociobiology]

it is to the same extent is is given to dogs or cats, which are far more mentally advanced.
their guardian decides.

Yet the intellectually disabled are wards of the state, are human, and afforded their unalienable right to life,

nope

for the severely mentally handicapped, which are much higher on the scale than a fetus, it requires the justification of directly conflicting with the quality of life of a non-mentally handicapped Homo sapien, in which case they can also be terminated.
again see conjoined twins.

[Solarys]

Why don't we legalise the eating of foetuses?

Because it would violate the bodily rights of a sentient human being, IE The mother?

Why aren't you a vegan?

So if the mother gives consent...

[The ivain isles]

Why don't we legalise the eating of foetuses?

Because it would violate the bodily rights of a sentient human being, IE The mother?

Why aren't you a vegan?

Why do you think I'm not? And how does it violate her bodily rights, it isn't on her body anymore, I thought that was the point of an abortion, to remove it from her body?

[Sociobiology]

whats the difference, both are potential humans.

you have never heard of cloning? or artificial ova?


which is telling that you would consider something with the faculties of an adult human to have less moral value and fewer rights than a ball of snot with some human genes in it.

Then by what justification do you deny rights to human tumor or extracted organs?

1) Sperm/ova needs to fuse with ova/sperm

and zygotes need to implant in the uterine wall

and they are naturally removed from the body.

so are most zygotes

2) I might/might not be familiar with what you said. And i haven't been keeping myself upto date with it either. Anyway, that is just out of curiosity. You can disregard it if you want.

so you can ignore it relevancy because of ignorance, nice cop out.

3) Tumor is deadly

no most tumors are benign, are you saying people should be forced to keep benign tumors?

Extracted organs don't grow upto be fully formed human beings, neither do tumors

neither do extracted fetuses

[Tlaceceyaya]

Because it would violate the bodily rights of a sentient human being, IE The mother?

Why aren't you a vegan?

Why do you think I'm not? And how does it violate her bodily rights, it isn't on her body anymore, I thought that was the point of an abortion, to remove it from her body?

You mean after an abortion?
Because it's been floating in its own pee for several months. That's fucking disgusting, man. Also because of evolution and stuff. Don't eat your own species' young.