NationStates

Posted: **Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:07 am**

Radiatia wrote:Although I understand the position of those who see a contradiction, I do not personally see a contradiction.

Both sides of the debate tend to, in fact, argue the same thing as the other side but in reverse.

The Pro-Choice/Pro-Criminal¹ side argues that a foetus is not a human, but that capital punishment is wrong on some level.

The Pro-Life/Pro-Justice side argues that life begin at conception, but that criminals are not human.
In principle I would align myself with the second group, as I am pro-life² but also pro death penalty³.

Footnotes:

¹ I'm just pulling yer legs with the slightly inflammatory titles, please do relax I have an odd sense of humour

² I'm pro-life in principle, in that I believe that life begins at conception and that a foetus is therefore a human. In practice I still support abortion in cases such as if it endangers the mother's physical or mental health, or in cases such as rape and incest, or if the child would live a horrible unpleasant life due to poverty or genetic factors.

³ Again, in principle I support the death penalty in that I have no moral objection to it. I'm not big on the whole "rehabilitation/second chances" thing, and reject the idea that criminals should be privy to human rights when they have failed to uphold their human responsibilities. However in practice I accept that we can rarely prove beyond doubt someone's guilt, and that we should not risk executing innocent people and thus feel that it's an impractical punishment.

Oh my beard, what have you done? It's a horrible twisted thing of straw, with too many arms and legs to be a strawman!

I think you have managed to give birth to a straw octopus!

Next time you have something like that in mind, please I beg you: abort the thought.

Posted: **Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:32 am**

It's almost as though none of you even understand nor remember what our argument is about abortion.
At this point, why should we even bother talking to you?
Clearly, it's a waste of our time.
Pro-Choice, Anti-Death Penalty (most cases.)

I think there is a compelling argument in favor of the death penalty for war crimes, election rigging (heading the conspiracy), embezzlement of public funds over a certain amount, etc.

Posted: **Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:53 am**

I am for capital punishment, and I am anti-abortion.

Posted: **Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:44 am**

Blassland wrote:
Regnum Dominae wrote:

he does not like abortion, but would not take the right away from somebody to choose, a sensible stance among people that protest abortion

That's the stance that... well, sane people have. There are very few people who actually think abortion itself is good (mostly population-growth pessimists), but plenty of people who realize that there are plenty of cases where it's better than the alternative and that the woman should have the right to choose regardless of whether it's good or bad.

For the record, I am both pro-choice and in favor of capital punishment for a few crimes (only for things like serial rape or murder), so I guess that makes me pro-death according to the OP.

Posted: **Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:48 am**

The Great America wrote:Is there anyone here that is against both abortion and capital punishment. I am against both. I think it is ironic to be either pro-choice and against capital punishment or pro-life and for capital punishment. I want to know if there are any people like me here.

Pro-choice does not mean pro-death. I would prefer it if women didn't perform abortions, but I don't believe I have the right to tell them what to do with their bodies. So it does makes sense to be both pro-choice and against capital punishment.

Posted: **Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:39 pm**

Dyakovo wrote:
The Great America wrote:Pretend I said fetus.

Adoption doesn't solve the problem of the woman's bodily sovereignty being violated.

Edit: left out "sovereignty"...

The unborn fetus has natural rights given by God and legal rights in America based on the 14th Amendment. Whatever happened to the rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?

Posted: **Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:41 pm**

The Great America wrote:
Dyakovo wrote:Adoption doesn't solve the problem of the woman's bodily sovereignty being violated.

Edit: left out "sovereignty"...

The unborn fetus has natural rights given by God and legal rights in America based on the 14th Amendment. Whatever happened to the rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?

Fetuses don't have rights, women do. Funny, eh?

Posted: **Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:44 pm**

Libertarian California wrote:
The Great America wrote:I hold my view because I strongly believe that life begins at the moment of conception. I am against the death penalty because death is never the answer to crime.

Why does human life begin at conception?

My penis slime is not a human.

This is proof from different scientific studies that life begins at conception:http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html Penis slime is not human in itself. Only when conceived does it become life.

Posted: **Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:45 pm**

The Great America wrote:
Dyakovo wrote:Adoption doesn't solve the problem of the woman's bodily sovereignty being violated.

Edit: left out "sovereignty"...

The unborn fetus has natural rights given by God and legal rights in America based on the 14th Amendment. Whatever happened to the rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?

Those rights apply only to legal persons.

Posted: **Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:48 pm**

Ailiailia wrote:
The Great America wrote:~~I hold my view because I strongly believe that life begins at the moment of conception.~~ I am against the death penalty because death is never the answer to crime.

I've struck out part I'm not going to reply to. There are enough threads already debating pro-life/pro-choice.

You are against the death penalty because death is never the answer to crime. That doesn't mean anything much to me. It's like if I said "I'm against eating meat, because killing an animal is never the answer to hunger". It begs the question: if I though killing an animal was sometimes the answer to hunger, I wouldn't be against eating meat. (Not that I am, it's just an example).

For the sake of simplicity, let us assume the accused person did certainly commit the crime, and the crime is one the death penalty is commonly applicable to, like premeditated murder.

Can you give a better reason why you're against the death penalty being used?

I am against the death penalty because it is cruel and inhumane. Should you die just because you broke the law? The person should get a chance to make amends in life.

Posted: **Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:50 pm**

I'm only for abortion. I love that shit. I can't say it enough. I just love abortions and can't imagine starting the day without hearing tell of one. I'm against capital punishment - mistakes happen and then, why would I want to put someone out of their misery if the intent is to make them as miserable as possible?

So, two things I love - making people miserable and abortions.

Posted: **Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:54 pm**

The Great America wrote:
Ailiailia wrote:
I've struck out part I'm not going to reply to. There are enough threads already debating pro-life/pro-choice.

You are against the death penalty because death is never the answer to crime. That doesn't mean anything much to me. It's like if I said "I'm against eating meat, because killing an animal is never the answer to hunger". It begs the question: if I though killing an animal was sometimes the answer to hunger, I wouldn't be against eating meat. (Not that I am, it's just an example).

For the sake of simplicity, let us assume the accused person did certainly commit the crime, and the crime is one the death penalty is commonly applicable to, like premeditated murder.

Can you give a better reason why you're against the death penalty being used?

I am against the death penalty because it is cruel and inhumane. Should you die just because you broke the law? The person should get a chance to make amends in life.

Am I to assume then that you are also against life sentences in prison, without parole or early release?

Posted: **Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:55 pm**

Regnum Dominae wrote:
The Great America wrote:The unborn fetus has natural rights given by God and legal rights in America based on the 14th Amendment. Whatever happened to the rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?

Those rights apply only to legal persons.

How about the natural rights?

Posted: **Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:57 pm**

Oppressorion wrote:
The Great America wrote:I am against the death penalty because it is cruel and inhumane. Should you die just because you broke the law? The person should get a chance to make amends in life.

Am I to assume then that you are also against life sentences in prison, without parole or early release?

That is better than the death penalty. People can make amends in prison.

Posted: **Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:00 pm**

The Great America wrote:
Regnum Dominae wrote:Those rights apply only to legal persons.

How about the natural rights?

Natural rights only exist insofar as they're granted by governments.

Posted: **Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:05 pm**

Torcularis Septentrionalis wrote:I support reproductive rights, and do not support capital punishment.

Why, Rose Bird?!???

Do you people seriously think paroling creeps like Theodore Frank within too yeers is a good idea?!????

Ailiailia wrote:
Radiatia wrote:Although I understand the position of those who see a contradiction, I do not personally see a contradiction.

Both sides of the debate tend to, in fact, argue the same thing as the other side but in reverse.

The Pro-Choice/Pro-Criminal¹ side argues that a foetus is not a human, but that capital punishment is wrong on some level.

The Pro-Life/Pro-Justice side argues that life begin at conception, but that criminals are not human.
In principle I would align myself with the second group, as I am pro-life² but also pro death penalty³.

Footnotes:

¹ I'm just pulling yer legs with the slightly inflammatory titles, please do relax I have an odd sense of humour

² I'm pro-life in principle, in that I believe that life begins at conception and that a foetus is therefore a human. In practice I still support abortion in cases such as if it endangers the mother's physical or mental health, or in cases such as rape and incest, or if the child would live a horrible unpleasant life due to poverty or genetic factors.

³ Again, in principle I support the death penalty in that I have no moral objection to it. I'm not big on the whole "rehabilitation/second chances" thing, and reject the idea that criminals should be privy to human rights when they have failed to uphold their human responsibilities. However in practice I accept that we can rarely prove beyond doubt someone's guilt, and that we should not risk executing innocent people and thus feel that it's an impractical punishment.

Oh my beard, what have you done? It's a horrible twisted thing of straw, with too many arms and legs to be a strawman!

I think you have managed to give birth to a straw octopus!

Next time you have something like that in mind, please I beg you: abort the thought.

I agree with him.

Posted: **Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:06 pm**

Desperate Measures wrote:I'm only for abortion. I love that shit. I can't say it enough. I just love abortions and can't imagine starting the day without hearing tell of one. I'm against capital punishment - mistakes happen and then, why would I want to put someone out of their misery if the intent is to make them as miserable as possible?

So, two things I love - making people miserable and abortions.

^ This.

The things that kill people the most are my favorite though, so I'm for abortion and the death penalty for everybody!

You get an abortion! And you get an abortion! You get to die! You get an abortion!

In all seriousness, I do not see a fetus to be a person, thus it has no rights, thus it can be aborted. Even if it was a person, it's in another person that doesn't want it there, so yeah.

I'm also against the death penalty, in all cases except for war crimes, like Nuremberg Trials kind of shit.

Posted: **Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:12 pm**

The Great America wrote:
Regnum Dominae wrote:Those rights apply only to legal persons.

How about the natural rights?

I don't believe fetuses are parasites and people "have a right to their own bodies".

What I believe is that fetuses are not humans de facto, and surely way less of a person before the 23th week than 99% of mammal species out there. Before the 16th week, less persons than all animal, ave and reptile species.

This applies to a way of thinking that does not give people a right to be a person based on their sapience and conscience, but based on their genetical background. Because fetuses merge each other and die without any aparent reason, while persons do not. And judging things to be superior based on their genes rather than their merit or what is inside their brains is one of the worst forms of eugenics.

Posted: **Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:14 pm**

Frisivisia wrote:
The Great America wrote:How about the natural rights?

Natural rights only exist insofar as they're granted by governments.

Natural rights are granted by God and secured by governments. The Founding Fathers emphasized this in the Declaration of Independence.

Posted: **Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:16 pm**

The Great America wrote:
Frisivisia wrote:Natural rights only exist insofar as they're granted by governments.

Natural rights are granted by God and secured by governments. The Founding Fathers emphasized this in the Declaration of Independence.

God isn't real and the Declaration isn't a legal document.

Posted: **Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:16 pm**

Desperate Measures wrote:I'm only for abortion. I love that shit. I can't say it enough. I just love abortions and can't imagine starting the day without hearing tell of one. I'm against capital punishment - mistakes happen and then, why would I want to put someone out of their misery if the intent is to make them as miserable as possible?

So, two things I love - making people miserable and abortions.

This made me giggle a little.

Posted: **Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:16 pm**

The Great America wrote:
Frisivisia wrote:Natural rights only exist insofar as they're granted by governments.

Natural rights are granted by God and secured by governments. The Founding Fathers emphasized this in the Declaration of Independence.

Then when someone violates your "natural rights", and the government doesn't punish them, will God smite them from above?

That's such a silly idea. Nothing is granted to us by God, or nature.

All our rights are granted to us by society, and society's legislative arm, the government.

Posted: **Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:17 pm**

Dalmacie wrote:In all seriousness, I do not see a fetus to be a person, thus it has no rights, thus it can be aborted. Even if it was a person, it's in another person that doesn't want it there, so yeah.

I'm also against the death penalty, in all cases except for war crimes, like Nuremberg Trials kind of shit.

Yeah. For civilians, it leads to a lot of people being killed for something they are not guilty of. It is an idea as absurd for a perfectly fair and functioning society as prison privatization.

[anarchism] Furthermore it is a culture of fear, and gives the State official moral authority for bigger oppression of the masses. [/anarchism]

Posted: **Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:19 pm**

The Great America wrote:
Dyakovo wrote:Adoption doesn't solve the problem of the woman's bodily sovereignty being violated.

Edit: left out "sovereignty"...

The unborn fetus has natural rights given by God and legal rights in America based on the 14th Amendment¹. Whatever happened to the rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?²

1: No, it doesn't. It's not a person.
2: Even assuming that the foetus was a person and thus had those rights, they still wouldn't trump the woman's right to bodily sovereignty.

Posted: **Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:24 pm**

The Great America wrote:
Frisivisia wrote:Natural rights only exist insofar as they're granted by governments.

Natural rights are granted by God and secured by governments. The Founding Fathers emphasized this in the Declaration of Independence.

Brazil gives freedom of religion since the 1820s, is secular since it is not a monarchy anymore since 1889, I'm agnostic atheist.

It doesn't say anything about me, or about humanity.

NationStates

Abortion and Capital Punishment