Opinions on Barack Obama

[Choronzon]

That's not even parallel.

The point is that the American system has allowed suspension of constitutional protections, pretty much as long as the American system has been the American system.

And we've yet to actually descend into tyranny.

So perhaps they tyranny threat is overblown.

Can I just also say I hate the utter devaluation of the word tyranny? Same with imperialism, same with war criminals.

Congo was imperialism. The British Raj was imperialism. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are not.

Actually, there is a good argument to be made that Iraq was imperialism.

Afghanistan not so much.

[Choronzon]

I have a problem with warrantless wiretaps.

Illegal wiretaps are illegal, and should have not been placed accordingly.

Legal ones I've no issues with.

W's warrantless wiretaps were totally legal.

Doesn't mean I can't have a problem with them.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Can I just also say I hate the utter devaluation of the word tyranny? Same with imperialism, same with war criminals.

Congo was imperialism. The British Raj was imperialism. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are not.

Actually, there is a good argument to be made that Iraq was imperialism.

Afghanistan not so much.

It was faulty intelligence, hardly empire building. I mean I didn't support the war either, I think it's a travesty and a humanitarian crisis. I just think that imperialism has a very specific meaning, and I wonder whether or not Iraq really applies. I'd be willing to listen to an argument on it though.

Illegal wiretaps are illegal, and should have not been placed accordingly.

Legal ones I've no issues with.

W's warrantless wiretaps were totally legal.

Doesn't mean I can't have a problem with them.

Clarification noted, and point conceded.

[Choronzon]

Actually, there is a good argument to be made that Iraq was imperialism.

Afghanistan not so much.

It was faulty intelligence, hardly empire building. I mean I didn't support the war either, I think it's a travesty and a humanitarian crisis. I just think that imperialism has a very specific meaning, and I wonder whether or not Iraq really applies. I'd be willing to listen to an argument on it though.

Iraq was about establishing a western friendly democracy in the region as a support base. Thats more or less imperialism.

I don't think the Bush administration actually ever thought there were WMDs.

[Alouite]

It was faulty intelligence, hardly empire building. I mean I didn't support the war either, I think it's a travesty and a humanitarian crisis. I just think that imperialism has a very specific meaning, and I wonder whether or not Iraq really applies. I'd be willing to listen to an argument on it though.

Iraq was about establishing a western friendly democracy in the region as a support base. Thats more or less imperialism.

I don't think the Bush administration actually ever thought there were WMDs.

In my opinion it was to set a pawn leader of their country that would be more friendly when setting oil prices for sale to the United States. Though I agree with Choronozon too.

[The Steel Magnolia]

It was faulty intelligence, hardly empire building. I mean I didn't support the war either, I think it's a travesty and a humanitarian crisis. I just think that imperialism has a very specific meaning, and I wonder whether or not Iraq really applies. I'd be willing to listen to an argument on it though.

Iraq was about establishing a western friendly democracy in the region as a support base. Thats more or less imperialism.

I don't think the Bush administration actually ever thought there were WMDs.

Except that's a very common American foreign policy goal (well, democracy, not so much). In fact, that's what almost every country does, try and establish areas of support. It's what Pakistan and the ISI did in the Afghan Civil War, it's what the Saudis are doing in Syria today. Would those be considered imperialism as well? Honest question.

[Choronzon]

Iraq was about establishing a western friendly democracy in the region as a support base. Thats more or less imperialism.

I don't think the Bush administration actually ever thought there were WMDs.

Except that's a very common American foreign policy goal (well, democracy, not so much). In fact, that's what almost every country does, try and establish areas of support. It's what Pakistan and the ISI did in the Afghan Civil War, it's what the Saudis are doing in Syria today. Would those be considered imperialism as well? Honest question.

Arguably a form of it, yes. Cultural and economic imperialism is still imperialism. Its just a lot more open and easy to identify when you invade the region and topple its leader.

[Alouite]

Iraq was about establishing a western friendly democracy in the region as a support base. Thats more or less imperialism.

I don't think the Bush administration actually ever thought there were WMDs.

Except that's a very common American foreign policy goal (well, democracy, not so much). In fact, that's what almost every country does, try and establish areas of support. It's what Pakistan and the ISI did in the Afghan Civil War, it's what the Saudis are doing in Syria today. Would those be considered imperialism as well? Honest question.

That is where I agree with you, it is advancing towards possible imperialism but is not even close to full blown imperialism like French North Africa and British India.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Except that's a very common American foreign policy goal (well, democracy, not so much). In fact, that's what almost every country does, try and establish areas of support. It's what Pakistan and the ISI did in the Afghan Civil War, it's what the Saudis are doing in Syria today. Would those be considered imperialism as well? Honest question.

Arguably a form of it, yes. Cultural and economic imperialism is still imperialism. Its just a lot more open and easy to identify when you invade the region and topple its leader.

Fair enough, though I question whether or not that's an overly broad application of the term. I see your point, however.

[Alouite]

Except that's a very common American foreign policy goal (well, democracy, not so much). In fact, that's what almost every country does, try and establish areas of support. It's what Pakistan and the ISI did in the Afghan Civil War, it's what the Saudis are doing in Syria today. Would those be considered imperialism as well? Honest question.

Arguably a form of it, yes. Cultural and economic imperialism is still imperialism. Its just a lot more open and easy to identify when you invade the region and topple its leader.

Isn't that more manipulation and corruption than imperialism?

[Dalmacie]

Iraq was about establishing a western friendly democracy in the region as a support base. Thats more or less imperialism.

I don't think the Bush administration actually ever thought there were WMDs.

Except that's a very common American foreign policy goal (well, democracy, not so much). In fact, that's what almost every country does, try and establish areas of support. It's what Pakistan and the ISI did in the Afghan Civil War, it's what the Saudis are doing in Syria today. Would those be considered imperialism as well? Honest question.

Yes.

Non-Western nations can engage in imperialism too.

Iraq is an example of imperialism. As is the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. As are many, many more wars.

You don't have to annex the territory and make it a colony for it to be imperialism.

[Albul]

Barack Obama is a dark figure with a shady character.

[Choronzon]

Arguably a form of it, yes. Cultural and economic imperialism is still imperialism. Its just a lot more open and easy to identify when you invade the region and topple its leader.

Isn't that more manipulation and corruption than imperialism?

You're assuming they're mutually exclusive.

[Alouite]

Isn't that more manipulation and corruption than imperialism?

You're assuming they're mutually exclusive.

Fair enough. Good point.

[The Republic of Pantalleria]

Overall, he's a meh for me, I mean America's economy is picking up again so he's gotta be doing something good, plus his foreign policies haven't been as condemning as Bush's so...