The "Nice Guy" and the friendzone, Society's attitude

[Dakini]

No, I was protecting myself by avoiding the creepy bastard.

But I've told this story before and been told that I was "creepy shaming" by virtue of being unwilling to talk to someone who was actively making me (and all the female graduate students in my department who were unfortunate enough to come across him) uncomfortable.

The people who have told you that are idiots. It is perfectly reasonable to avoid contact with someone, who gives a flying fuck what the reasons were? If you don't like the person or he is making you uncomfortable is not your duty to cater to his sensibilities.

Oh, I know. They can go fuck themselves. I'm just saying what I've heard. To some people, you can't describe a guy who makes women uncomfortable and acts with inappropriate levels of familiarity with them (or who even follows them around) a "creep" because otherwise, you're creep shaming. These people are idiots, but they still say it.

[Ostroeuropa]

I'm not sure how to interpret that, whether disbelief, or acknowledgement of the general idea from a female perspective.

I'm virtually certain it's not first hand acknowledgement, since "aspiring astrophysicist from Canada" was never on my list.

California, yes, but not Canada.

Haha. Well, general acknowledgement of effectiveness and also an "I do that too..."

It's a very easy way to be funny if you're reasonably clever.

The evolution of humanity will lead to future generations having ridiculous voices, but sharp wit.

[The Serbian Empire]

I dunno, but could it be true that the old adage of "Nice guys finish last" holds some water? Possibly, but I don't want to go into specifics on it.

[Dakini]

Haha. Well, general acknowledgement of effectiveness and also an "I do that too..."

It's a very easy way to be funny if you're reasonably clever.

aren't you engaged now? Doesn't that severely limit the effectiveness of snark induced fuckery when the playing field is so narrow, and he's contractually obligated to do you anyway?

Unless you're one of those couples...

Nah, we got hitched almost right after we got married because fuck long engagements.

Anyway, I only got married slightly young for a woman in Canada since the average is 28 and I got hitched at 27. Lots of time to play the field before then.

Plus you know, making fun of other people comprises a lot of what my other half an and I talk about together (because it's fun)... so... there's that...

[Dakini]

I dunno, but could it be true that the old adage of "Nice guys finish last" holds some water? Possibly, but I don't want to go into specifics on it.

Not really. Maybe in business (if you don't count women or people of colour), but not in love.

[Ostroeuropa]

If you're unwilling to sleep with sluts, you aren't slut shaming.
I don't see how they could honestly compare the two.

Because "they" are MRAs and "they" tend to be dishonest and they like to pretend that men have it just as bad (or worse!) as women in every possible scenario.

I don't particularly like the quotation marks there, but fine.
I agree.
some MRA's are fairly shitty.
The immediate objection to that attempt to create a parallel isn't "Creep shame" but "Chaste Shame" and the pressurization of young males to quickly quickly go find someone to fuck or else you aren't a Real Man (tm.)
So it's probably just creeps trying to justify themselves instead of an actual attempt at a parallel.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I dunno, but could it be true that the old adage of "Nice guys finish last" holds some water? Possibly, but I don't want to go into specifics on it.

Well, it depends on what you mean.

[Dakini]

Because "they" are MRAs and "they" tend to be dishonest and they like to pretend that men have it just as bad (or worse!) as women in every possible scenario.

I don't particularly like the quotation marks there, but fine.
I agree.
some MRA's are fairly shitty.
The immediate objection to that attempt to create a parallel isn't "Creep shame" but "Chaste Shame" and the pressurization of young males to quickly quickly go find someone to fuck or else you aren't a Real Man (tm.)
So it's probably just creeps trying to justify themselves instead of an actual attempt at a parallel.

That would be a reasonable equivalent (though not very catchy) I don't think quite equivalent (since slut shaming tends to also involve blaming rape victims for their assaults), but that's not what these guys tend to use.

Granted, I tend to assume that MRAs are all creeps and so far, nobody has demonstrated otherwise to me so there's that.

And I forget why the quotation marks... it seemed appropriate at the time.

[Ashmoria]

"why do you feel entitled to sex if you are a nice guy, if you are nice guy you should feel fine about just being friends and you shouldn't be mad at her for putting you in the friendzone, being nice does not mean that she must automatically like you, she is not a vending machine where you put enough 'nice guy' coins in and you get to get something in return, it doesn't work like that, she could just not be attracted to you," etc. etc. etc.

I've actually seen rants like this online and it always strikes me as odd that they assume that the guy only wants sex and not LOVE, but hey guys are clearly incapable of thinking about anything but sex right?

is it less creepy to insist that a woman you have been nice to for a really long time must LOVE you?

[Ostroeuropa]

I don't particularly like the quotation marks there, but fine.
I agree.
some MRA's are fairly shitty.
The immediate objection to that attempt to create a parallel isn't "Creep shame" but "Chaste Shame" and the pressurization of young males to quickly quickly go find someone to fuck or else you aren't a Real Man (tm.)
So it's probably just creeps trying to justify themselves instead of an actual attempt at a parallel.

That would be a reasonable equivalent (though not very catchy) I don't think quite equivalent (since slut shaming tends to also involve blaming rape victims for their assaults), but that's not what these guys tend to use.

Granted, I tend to assume that MRAs are all creeps and so far, nobody has demonstrated otherwise to me so there's that.

That's a particularly vile part of slut shame yeh, but that's more to do with rape culture.
It's not that slut shaming means we label rape victims sluts.
It's that first, rape culture leads us into not labeling them victims at all.
And if they aren't victims, then they are just fucking people.
Which means they are sluts.
The parallel again there would be that people seem to disbelieve males can even BE raped, and will then say "What do you mean rape, sounds like sex to me. Good for you! You got some! Now go get some more! QUICKLY!!!!"

The entire societal attitude to sex with regard to gender roles is completely fucked up.
In fact, you can make the arguement that the pressure placed on males to fuck probably leads to more rapes. And as I said earlier in another thread, while you can sympathize with a rapist, you can't sympathize with their viewpoint or actions. It's just sad if people have turned out like that. Doesn't mean we should go easy on them.
I suppose you could phrase it rather darkly as which would you prefer, to be raped or be a rapist.

[Dakini]

Having lived in both a small town and a city, I can attest that both are difficult. In the small town you have the problem of knowing everyone and everything about them meaning you have preconceived attitudes towards people to overcome, along with the fact they might well have decided they don't like you.

In the city you have the problem of having less people you do know. Though this is easily rectified by making friends who can intorduce you to their friends/going out in a club and talking to people (or, if not a clubby person, another socially acceptable place to mingle). Asking random people on the street for a date is probably not going to go down very well anywhere.

Well, that's a good point you told about the small town issue. Because everybody knows (almost) everybody, negativity talk about someone is faster done then someone in the city.

But do you known how much that would cost to go to a bar? It would cost my more then 20 euro's then, and a lot of faces who looking like: What the hell you doing here?

So, got any better social acceptable place idea then going to clubs / bars?

Do you live in Sweden? Otherwise, from what I hear, you need to be having a serious drinking problem if you think you can't spend less than 20 euros in a bar. When I went to Vienna I was getting reasonably smashed on 20 euros and I'm not a lightweight when it comes to drinking.

In Sweden I can understand because apparently 20 euros gets you two beers.

[The Serbian Empire]

I dunno, but could it be true that the old adage of "Nice guys finish last" holds some water? Possibly, but I don't want to go into specifics on it.

Not really. Maybe in business (if you don't count women or people of colour), but not in love.

It works against a rather good chunk (although of what size I cannot be too certain of) of the dating field thanks to their attraction to "bad boys". The problem is that a nice guy can't see who is attracted to what type easily on sight.

[Ostroeuropa]

Not really. Maybe in business (if you don't count women or people of colour), but not in love.

It works against a rather good chunk (although of what size I cannot be too certain of) of the dating field thanks to their attraction to "bad boys". The problem is that a nice guy can't see who is attracted to what type easily on sight.

Coming as I do from the soft criminal underbelly, I can assure you that the types of women attracted to bad boys are not attracted to bad boys.
They are simply psychologically damaged. Like the rest of us down there.
At least, the ones with two braincells to rub together are.
When your friends are all criminals and you all have an addiction to feed, it becomes incredibly attractive to see someone who's a "bad boy" as a provider of the goods and a protector from the competition.
In my experience, these women (and indeed, the men) when they recover from that particular lifestyle usually pretty quickly settle for precisely a "nice guy".
A genuine one that is. Not one of the people pretending to be one.

The alternative is to do what many of us did and repeat how we entered that culture.
Find a sweet, unassuming person like we used to be, and date them.
Then watch as they become precisely like you.
And suddenly the tables are turned and you feel like shit.

There is a good reason "bad girls" go for "bad guys."

[Ordya]

I do think that "nice guys" should get better treatment from the opposite sex, though I myself am neither a nice guy nor a jerk--I simply keep to myself and my friends and acquaintances. As for the "friendzone", I'm quite terrible at differentiating flirting from actual signals and am not really interested in a relationship in the first place, so I find it irrelevant.

[Dakini]

That would be a reasonable equivalent (though not very catchy) I don't think quite equivalent (since slut shaming tends to also involve blaming rape victims for their assaults), but that's not what these guys tend to use.

Granted, I tend to assume that MRAs are all creeps and so far, nobody has demonstrated otherwise to me so there's that.

That's a particularly vile part of slut shame yeh, but that's more to do with rape culture.

Yeah, but I wasn't talking about rape culture, I was talking about parallels between slut shaming and "chaste shaming" as you proposed. Rape culture is another thread.

The entire societal attitude to sex with regard to gender roles is completely fucked up.

Yes.

In fact, you can make the arguement that the pressure placed on males to fuck probably leads to more rapes.

I don't think so.

And as I said earlier in another, while you can sympathize with a rapist, you can't sympathize with their viewpoint or actions. It's just sad if people have turned out like that. Doesn't mean we should go easy on them.

I don't sympathise with rapists. At all. I sympathise with their victims.

[Choronzon]

There's actually a guy on the internet who believes just that. Quite a hillarious read.

I am...familiar with that. Hence my statement that there's nobody HERE who's quite crazy enough for that.

No, but we do have some champions of men around here who will argue that if you pay for dinner you are entitled to her body, and that "No" simply isn't good enough, that sluts owes you an explanation for not letting you inside her.

[The Serbian Empire]

It works against a rather good chunk (although of what size I cannot be too certain of) of the dating field thanks to their attraction to "bad boys". The problem is that a nice guy can't see who is attracted to what type easily on sight.

Coming as I do from the soft criminal underbelly, I can assure you that the types of women attracted to bad boys are not attracted to bad boys.
They are simply psychologically damaged. Like the rest of us down there.
At least, the ones with two braincells to rub together are.
When your friends are all criminals and you all have an addiction to feed, it becomes incredibly attractive to see someone who's a "bad boy" as a provider of the goods and a protector from the competition.

It must mean there is a lot of psychologically damaged people out there.

[Choronzon]

I do think that "nice guys" should get better treatment from the opposite sex

In what way are "nice guys" treated unfairly by women? Are you someone who thinks that being nice to a woman means she is obligated to blow you?

[Ordya]

Coming as I do from the soft criminal underbelly, I can assure you that the types of women attracted to bad boys are not attracted to bad boys.
They are simply psychologically damaged. Like the rest of us down there.
At least, the ones with two braincells to rub together are.
When your friends are all criminals and you all have an addiction to feed, it becomes incredibly attractive to see someone who's a "bad boy" as a provider of the goods and a protector from the competition.

It must mean there is a lot of psychologically damaged people out there.

You're just now figuring this out?

[Ostroeuropa]

Coming as I do from the soft criminal underbelly, I can assure you that the types of women attracted to bad boys are not attracted to bad boys.
They are simply psychologically damaged. Like the rest of us down there.
At least, the ones with two braincells to rub together are.
When your friends are all criminals and you all have an addiction to feed, it becomes incredibly attractive to see someone who's a "bad boy" as a provider of the goods and a protector from the competition.

It must mean there is a lot of psychologically damaged people out there.

Are you surprised?

[Neo Art]

I am...familiar with that. Hence my statement that there's nobody HERE who's quite crazy enough for that.

No, but we do have some champions of men around here who will argue that if you pay for dinner you are entitled to her body, and that "No" simply isn't good enough, that sluts owes you an explanation for not letting you inside her.

In fairness, I don't think anyone has said that if you buy her dinner she MUST sleep with you. Nobody has claimed that.

People have claimed that if you know he wants to fuck you, and let him buy you dinner, and then don't sleep with him, you're a thief and should go to prison.

[Ordya]

I do think that "nice guys" should get better treatment from the opposite sex

In what way are "nice guys" treated unfairly by women? Are you someone who thinks that being nice to a woman means she is obligated to blow you?

No, I was replying directly to the OP. I didn't say that "nice guys" are treated unfairly by women (don't fucking put words in my mouth, that pisses me off), I meant that they should be given more than a fair shake, which doesn't seem to be the case, based on the OP.

Tone down the persecution complex.

[Choronzon]

The people who have told you that are idiots. It is perfectly reasonable to avoid contact with someone, who gives a flying fuck what the reasons were? If you don't like the person or he is making you uncomfortable is not your duty to cater to his sensibilities.

Oh, I know. They can go fuck themselves. I'm just saying what I've heard. To some people, you can't describe a guy who makes women uncomfortable and acts with inappropriate levels of familiarity with them (or who even follows them around) a "creep" because otherwise, you're creep shaming. These people are idiots, but they still say it.

This notion that I am somehow obligated to teach all the special, delicate little snowflakes how to be fully functioning adults in society is incredibly frustrating.

[Dakini]

Not really. Maybe in business (if you don't count women or people of colour), but not in love.

It works against a rather good chunk (although of what size I cannot be too certain of) of the dating field thanks to their attraction to "bad boys". The problem is that a nice guy can't see who is attracted to what type easily on sight.

No. Women are not universally attracted to anyone, let alone "bad boys". I don't even think that most women are attracted to "bad boys" unless you characterize every guy who does something that could be "bad" such as refusing to go to church, having piercings, smoking, drinking, swearing etc as a "bad boy", but then you're just getting into saying that every guy who isn't utterly boring is a "bad boy".

In general, I think it's safe to say that everyone wants someone who will treat them well.

[Choronzon]

In what way are "nice guys" treated unfairly by women? Are you someone who thinks that being nice to a woman means she is obligated to blow you?

No, I was replying directly to the OP. I didn't say that "nice guys" are treated unfairly by women (don't fucking put words in my mouth, that pisses me off), I meant that they should be given more than a fair shake, which doesn't seem to be the case, based on the OP.

Tone down the persecution complex.

I didn't say that nice guys are treated unfairly by women! I just said they're not given a fair shake! Don't put words in my mouth!

Mag-fucking-nificent.