The "Nice Guy" and the friendzone, Society's attitude

[Flaxxony-Setram]

I honestly do everything possible to avoid the "friend" categorization lol.

no guy wants to be a beta male lol. Every guy wants to be the alpha that women cant control themselves around but, sadly, most guys dont ooze sex appeal and in that case I guess just take what you can get. But I figure most guys should at least try and be an alpha. You may not be able to overcome bad genetics, but you can sure change your attitude to a more chill and badass mentality and hit the gym a little bit..

its the ultimate irony of mankind; the kind of mate a girl wants to hold onto forever is the one that can get in her panties the fastest. It is a wierd phenomenon but it makes total sense from a biological standpoint.

[The Parkus Empire]

"Giving back" meaning "putting out"? or just being a good friend in return?

Either method of "giving back" tends to reduce the "friend zone" complaints, if you want to bring that up. This is because when guys complain about girls using them for support while putting out in exchange, the complaints get filed under "relationship issues" or "prostitution" categories instead. I'm not saying that is necessarily less dysfunctional, mind; but it doesn't lead to "friend zone" complaints because of the way the friend zone gets defined.

I was talking about being a good friend in return, though. IMO, if you're not being a good friend in return to someone who you are using as a good friend to you and is in love with you, then whether or not you're banging them, you are doing something wrong. I'm judgemental like that.

When guys express the frustration of "the friendzone", they aren't talking about the woman in question not being a friend, they're talking about her not being more than that. That is the subject of this thread. If you wish to assert that there are emotionally manipulative women out there who use men, I don't think anyone will argue with you (unless by "use" you mean "imply sex without ponying up", because teasing is not using anyone, nor is it emotionally abusive, nor is it that big of a deal by any means, nor are the majority of women accused of "teasing" even doing any such thing).

Personally, I don't financially support women, so I don't really have that problem. Emotionally, I support all of my friends. If I'm there for a friend, but then they aren't there for me, then they're not my friend; sex, gender, whatever, doesn't matter.

[The Parkus Empire]

I honestly do everything possible to avoid the "friend" categorization lol.

no guy wants to be a beta male lol. Every guy wants to be the alpha

This is false dichotomy horseshit.

that women cant control themselves around but,

No such male, because women, just like men, have self control.

sadly, most guys dont ooze sex appeal and in that case I guess just take what you can get. But I figure most guys should at least try and be an alpha. You may not be able to overcome bad genetics, but you can sure change your attitude to a more chill and badass mentality and hit the gym a little bit..

You don't need a fucking "badass mentality" unless you're wooing gangster women, in which case I can already tell you that you won't cut it.

its the ultimate irony of mankind; the kind of mate a girl wants to hold onto forever is the one that can get in her panties the fastest.

The fuck are you talking about, son? Women rarely marry their first fuck.

It is a wierd phenomenon but it makes total sense from a biological standpoint.

You don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Damn kid.

[Flaxxony-Setram]

I honestly do everything possible to avoid the "friend" categorization lol.

no guy wants to be a beta male lol. Every guy wants to be the alpha

This is false dichotomy horseshit.

that women cant control themselves around but,

No such male, because women, just like men, have self control.

sadly, most guys dont ooze sex appeal and in that case I guess just take what you can get. But I figure most guys should at least try and be an alpha. You may not be able to overcome bad genetics, but you can sure change your attitude to a more chill and badass mentality and hit the gym a little bit..

You don't need a fucking "badass mentality" unless you're wooing gangster women, in which case I can already tell you that you won't cut it.

its the ultimate irony of mankind; the kind of mate a girl wants to hold onto forever is the one that can get in her panties the fastest.

The fuck are you talking about, son? Women rarely marry their first fuck.

It is a wierd phenomenon but it makes total sense from a biological standpoint.

You don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Damn kid.

Jeez somebody got a lil flustered

but yeah women like that free spirited badass guy honestly. They like a tall, handsome, smooth voiced romantic who always has the right thing to say. But there are only a select few guys like that so the rest should just try to achieve ideal. But yeah I like how you took my "lose control" thing so seriously. All I meant was there are some studs that get the women and thats just life

[Tahar Joblis]

When guys express the frustration of "the friendzone", they aren't talking about the woman in question not being a friend, they're talking about her not being more than that. That is the subject of this thread.

What I was replying to was a comment asserting that particular features of these stories other than the essential feature are the reason for the narrative. That the stories are motivated by "heteopatriarchal bullshit." I pointed out that the narrative has more to do with different and more common features than some devious cryptomisygonist beliefs of the narrators.

A common feature of these stories is talking about how good of a friend you have been to this person who has friend zoned you; and what lengths you have gone for this person. Sometimes, this is measured in relative terms, rather than absolute terms; relative to this person. A critical observer often asks, after reading all this, what, exactly, this person has done for you as a friend; a common answer to that question is that this person is a good person and you like them.

It's also not unusual for the complaint about not being a lover and only a friend to be accompanied by a litany of related complaints, listing all the ways this person has hurt or neglected you. It is, to put it bluntly, not at all unusual for the nice guy / friend zone story to involve a relationship that is completely one-sided; not merely one-sided in the dimension of attraction. Sexual attraction is one of the few glues that can hold a one-sided friendship together.

It certainly has a fuck of a lot more to do with the "nice guy" narrative than a pile of bullshit about all nice guys being wannabe rapists who view women as dysfunctional sexual vending machines. One-sided relationships fuel nice guy / friend zone complaints.

[The Parkus Empire]

Jeez somebody got a lil flustered

Someone got full of shit.

but yeah women like that free spirited badass guy honestly.

The fuck is a "free spirited badass"? An Easy Rider character? You're making a statement about the tastes of the female sex in general? Such an expert, huh? Well what do men like?

They like a tall, handsome, smooth voiced romantic who always has the right thing to say.

You mean someone who doesn't say shit like, "Nice ass"?

But there are only a select few guys like that so the rest should just try to achieve ideal.

That's ridiculously ambiguous. There are plenty of attractive (arbitrary) guys who say things that are wonderful to hear.

But yeah I like how you took my "lose control" thing so seriously. All I meant was there are some studs that get the women and thats just life

"The women"? What do you mean? That they have non-monogamous relationships with "the women"?

[Flaxxony-Setram]

Jeez somebody got a lil flustered

Someone got full of shit.

but yeah women like that free spirited badass guy honestly.

The fuck is a "free spirited badass"? An Easy Rider character? You're making a statement about the tastes of the female sex in general? Such an expert, huh? Well what do men like?

They like a tall, handsome, smooth voiced romantic who always has the right thing to say.

You mean someone who doesn't say shit like, "Nice ass"?

But there are only a select few guys like that so the rest should just try to achieve ideal.

That's ridiculously ambiguous. There are plenty of attractive (arbitrary) guys who say things that are wonderful to hear.

But yeah I like how you took my "lose control" thing so seriously. All I meant was there are some studs that get the women and thats just life

"The women"? What do you mean? That they have non-monogamous relationships with "the women"?

I am saying that women dont like a fat lazy idiot they like the guys with sex appeal

[The Parkus Empire]

What I was replying to was a comment asserting that particular features of these stories other than the essential feature are the reason for the narrative. That the stories are motivated by "heteopatriarchal bullshit." I pointed out that the narrative has more to do with different and more common features than some devious cryptomisygonist beliefs of the narrators.

A common feature of these stories is talking about how good of a friend you have been to this person who has friend zoned you; and what lengths you have gone for this person.

Which you expect compensation for in the form of a relationship, or else you'd to those lengths for every one of your friends. And really, comforting and caring for a friend after a bad breakup is not "great lengths", it's just part of being a friend.

Sometimes, this is measured in relative terms, rather than absolute terms; relative to this person. A critical observer often asks, after reading all this, what, exactly, this person has done for you as a friend; a common answer to that question is that this person is a good person and you like them.

It's also not unusual for the complaint about not being a lover and only a friend to be accompanied by a litany of related complaints, listing all the ways this person has hurt or neglected you.

It is, to put it bluntly, not at all unusual for the nice guy / friend zone story to involve a relationship that is completely one-sided; not merely one-sided in the dimension of attraction. Sexual attraction is one of the few glues that can hold a one-sided friendship together.

Ayup. She might not really even want to be his friend, not that much anyway.

It certainly has a fuck of a lot more to do with the "nice guy" narrative than a pile of bullshit about all nice guys being wannabe rapists who view women as dysfunctional sexual vending machines. One-sided relationships fuel nice guy / friend zone complaints.

Guys who are upset that being nice isn't rewarded by sex, are pretty disgusting. Not saying all self defined "nice guys" are like that, but it's not uncommon.

[The Parkus Empire]

I am saying that women dont like a fat lazy idiot they like the guys with sex appeal

Probably should have just said that then, rather than all that other fucking nonsense about biology. Also: plenty of women have fat boyfriends.

[Arcturus IV]

You know, this thread reminded me of this song that I hate for two reasons:

1. because it's a stupid song that incorrectly states that all x are y, and
2. it is a blatant ripoff of this which I used to love (but now I can't listen to or watch without thinking of the former song).

So it's not even original, on top of being wrong.

Goddamn that makes me spurious furious.

On a side note, these sorts of threads have a tendency to attract more strawmen than John Smith and Farringham School. And there is usually a proportionate amount of assault upon them as well.

[Flaxxony-Setram]

I am saying that women dont like a fat lazy idiot they like the guys with sex appeal

Probably should have just said that then, rather than all that other fucking nonsense about biology. Also: plenty of women have fat boyfriends.

And how many of them do you think actually like that better than if he was ripped?

[New Nassrau]

I am saying that women dont like a fat lazy idiot they like the guys with sex appeal

Well, I don't particularly want like fat guys as boyfriends, however I know of women who do, they say that it doesn't matter if he's flab... like, they both have common interests, or are avid fans in the same fandomn

[Galborg]

Either method of "giving back" tends to reduce the "friend zone" complaints, if you want to bring that up. This is because when guys complain about girls using them for support while putting out in exchange, the complaints get filed under "relationship issues" or "prostitution" categories instead. I'm not saying that is necessarily less dysfunctional, mind; but it doesn't lead to "friend zone" complaints because of the way the friend zone gets defined.

I was talking about being a good friend in return, though. IMO, if you're not being a good friend in return to someone who you are using as a good friend to you and is in love with you, then whether or not you're banging them, you are doing something wrong. I'm judgemental like that.

1) When guys express the frustration of "the friendzone", they aren't talking about the woman in question not being a friend, they're talking about her not being more than that. That is the subject of this thread.

2) If you wish to assert that there are emotionally manipulative women out there who use men, I don't think anyone will argue with you (unless by "use" you mean "imply sex without ponying up", because teasing is not using anyone, nor is it emotionally abusive, nor is it that big of a deal by any means, nor are the majority of women accused of "teasing" even doing any such thing).

Personally, I don't financially support women, so I don't really have that problem. Emotionally, I support all of my friends. If I'm there for a friend, but then they aren't there for me, then they're not my friend; sex, gender, whatever, doesn't matter.

1) Woman is your friend: good news, you get love and emotional support; bad news, you don't get sex.

2) Woman is your manipulative friendzone: bad news, she makes a deliberate point of fucking men you hate; worse news, she dangles the carrot that SOME day she will fuck you; good news, she NEVER EVAH WILL FUCK YOU.

3) So of course Cthulics assert that Friendzonistas need to be punished and the correct punishment is rape, Cthulics would say that, wouldn't they?

[The Parkus Empire]

Probably should have just said that then, rather than all that other fucking nonsense about biology. Also: plenty of women have fat boyfriends.

And how many of them do you think actually like that better than if he was ripped?

Some actually. Is there a point you're trying to make? That she will instantly leave him the moment a ripped guy hits on her, or what?

[Flaxxony-Setram]

Its funny how you guys talk about this "emotional supoort" because I have never really consulted people for that at all let alone girls and I was pretty sure only women do that stuff but hey to each his own. I guess I just dont get my feelings hurt and I like to keep my problems to myself lol but I mean I would help friends if they wanted that but I mean I guess you learn something new every day haha.

Fact of the day; apparently guys do emotional talks or whatever too? At least online

[The Parkus Empire]

1) Woman is your friend: good news, you get love and emotional support; bad news, you don't get sex.

Unless, you know, you're one of those guys who doesn't see it as bad news if not every woman wants to fuck him.

she makes a deliberate point of fucking men you hate;

A: Paranoid like a motherfuck.

B: Abhorrently, absurdly egocentric--yes, course, her whole sex life revolves around you, even with other guys.

C: If you hate every guy she fucks, then she really can't help this, nor should she in general.

3) So of course Cthulics assert that Friendzonistas need to be punished and the correct punishment is rape, Cthulics would say that, wouldn't they?

I'm sorry, is there some rape joke in there I'm not getting?

[The Parkus Empire]

I have never really consulted people for that at all let alone girls

Nice

[Flaxxony-Setram]

And how many of them do you think actually like that better than if he was ripped?

Some actually. Is there a point you're trying to make? That she will instantly leave him the moment a ripped guy hits on her, or what?

No. But you should never make your partner feel like they arent good enough for you to keep working out for. Like for example ever since I have had a girlfriend I just wanted to have an even better body so she didnt feel like the sex was just gonna go downhill and conversely that it was just going to get better

[Flaxxony-Setram]

I have never really consulted people for that at all let alone girls

Nice

Yeah I guess who knows I guess ive just been lucky so far lol

[The Parkus Empire]

Nice

Yeah I guess who knows I guess ive just been lucky so far lol

I just find it funny that you make a distinction between people and girls

[Flaxxony-Setram]

Yeah I guess who knows I guess ive just been lucky so far lol

I just find it funny that you make a distinction between people and girls

Um no k just was going from general to specific.

Substitute the word "people" for the word "anybody" and thats what I actually meant to say

[The Parkus Empire]

I just find it funny that you make a distinction between people and girls

Um no k just was going from general to specific.

Substitute the word "people" for the word "anybody" and thats what I actually meant to say

Yet it would have been far more accurate to say "any guys, let alone girls". Although I don't see why getting emotional support from a woman would be any more unreasonable than getting it from a man,

[Galborg]

1) Woman is your friend: good news, you get love and emotional support; bad news, you don't get sex.

1) Unless, you know, you're one of those guys who doesn't see it as bad news if not every woman wants to fuck him.

she makes a deliberate point of fucking men you hate;

2) A: Paranoid like a motherfuck.

B: Abhorrently, absurdly egocentric--yes, course, her whole sex life revolves around you, even with other guys.

C: If you hate every guy she fucks, then she really can't help this, nor should she in general.

3)

3) So of course Cthulics assert that Friendzonistas need to be punished and the correct punishment is rape, Cthulics would say that, wouldn't they?

4) I'm sorry, is there some rape joke in there I'm not getting?

1) Who are these guys? Yes, it is bad news when every woman don't want to fuck me. But there is a secret order of monks and for them, it is bad news when women want to fuck them?

To xplain the xplanation: ifn a woman is my friend and she loves me, that is nice. Ifn she loved me more, so much more that she fucks me, that would be nicer yet.

Niceguyism is a completely different thing altogether and don't call me Shirley.

Paranoid like a motherfuck.

Some women fuck random people because they wanna.
Some women fuck their Friendzone's enemies deliberately.

I assert SOME, you assert ALL.

4) rape jokes: the difference between South Park, Family Guy and Me. South Park can make funny rape jokes. My rape jokes are not funny, neither are Family Guy rape jokes. The difference is that my rape jokes are not funny so I don't tell them, whereas Family Guy rape jokes are not funny, so they DO tell them.

[Dakini]

I honestly do everything possible to avoid the "friend" categorization lol.

no guy wants to be a beta male lol. Every guy wants to be the alpha that women cant control themselves around but, sadly, most guys dont ooze sex appeal and in that case I guess just take what you can get. But I figure most guys should at least try and be an alpha. You may not be able to overcome bad genetics, but you can sure change your attitude to a more chill and badass mentality and hit the gym a little bit..

its the ultimate irony of mankind; the kind of mate a girl wants to hold onto forever is the one that can get in her panties the fastest. It is a wierd phenomenon but it makes total sense from a biological standpoint.

Stop being a loser and listening to PUAs.

The alpha male/beta male is based on ideas about wolf societies that we now know to be wrong. It's all bullshit.

Also, if you're incapable of attracting women, you might want to look into changing your personality. Acting like women are only worth having around because you can fuck them is revolting.

[Arcturus IV]

"Indecisive guys". Which in and of itself is not a bad thing. People can be indecisive for many reasons, and it can be beneficial, just as it can be detrimental.

Being indecisive about asking a woman out is just deciding on no. It's not any better than being indecisive about getting a dental check up.

Missed this earlier...

Indecisiveness can save you a lot of heartache. Of course, depending on the person, heartache may be worse than loneliness, or it may be less intolerable. But either way, you can't get hurt if you don't take that chance. No risk, no reward, sure, but also no chance of loss. It's a sort of "break even" thing.

Also, Flax seems to be saying that seeking emotional support from anyone is something guys don't do. I could be wrong, but that's the general vibe I'm getting. Care to elaborate, Flax? As someone who is in possession of a male human body, I don't fit that assumption, because I seek emotional support from people sometimes. But only people I feel I have a fairly good reason to seek it from.