The "Nice Guy" and the friendzone, Society's attitude

[Helvereos]

Truly insidious stuff.

I agree, misogyny can be rather insidious.

Yeah. Unlike in the past, discrimination today is rather sneaky/sinister. People in general are much better at hiding it than before.

[Albul]

Nice Guy + Mean Girl = The most boring movie plot ever.
Mean Guy + Nice Girl = The most bland movie plot ever
Mean Guy + Mean Girl = The most B.A. movie ever!

Anyways, Niceness doesn't pay off. Being nice is for pansies who have nothing better to do. I have personally been nice in the past, then I realized it wasn't worth it. Now look at me, I have all the friends I need!

[Imsogone]

Nice Guy + Mean Girl = The most boring movie plot ever.
Mean Guy + Nice Girl = The most bland movie plot ever
Mean Guy + Mean Girl = The most B.A. movie ever!

Anyways, Niceness doesn't pay off. Being nice is for pansies who have nothing better to do. I have personally been nice in the past, then I realized it wasn't worth it. Now look at me, I have all the friends I need!

So you don't need friends. Congratulations.

[The Emerald Legion]

Nice Guy + Mean Girl = The most boring movie plot ever.
Mean Guy + Nice Girl = The most bland movie plot ever
Mean Guy + Mean Girl = The most B.A. movie ever!

Anyways, Niceness doesn't pay off. Being nice is for pansies who have nothing better to do. I have personally been nice in the past, then I realized it wasn't worth it. Now look at me, I have all the friends I need!

Being mean is for people who have far too much time to spend on other people. Being reasonably nice generally gets the whole interaction over with sooner.

[Rocopurr]

Nice Guy + Mean Girl = The most boring movie plot ever.
Mean Guy + Nice Girl = The most bland movie plot ever
Mean Guy + Mean Girl = The most B.A. movie ever! :D

Anyways, Niceness doesn't pay off. Being nice is for pansies who have nothing better to do. I have personally been nice in the past, then I realized it wasn't worth it. Now look at me, I have all the friends I need!

You know some pretty strange people if they enjoy having mean friends...

[Bottle]

Nice Guy + Mean Girl = The most boring movie plot ever.
Mean Guy + Nice Girl = The most bland movie plot ever
Mean Guy + Mean Girl = The most B.A. movie ever!

Anyways, Niceness doesn't pay off. Being nice is for pansies who have nothing better to do. I have personally been nice in the past, then I realized it wasn't worth it. Now look at me, I have all the friends I need!

Meanness generally doesn't make for good movie plots, because bullying is boring and we've all seen it a billion times before. It's like how comedians who have to make racist or sexist "jokes" are always profoundly unfunny, because they're so uncreative and boring.

Furthermore, being mean doesn't require any bravery or toughness, or any skill at all. All it takes to be mean is that you be self-centered enough to not give a shit what other people feel, and that you lack impulse control. This is why babies and spoilt children are easily able to master being mean.

The one thing I can agree with is that it's not worth being nice if you are a mean person. That wastes everyone's time, because they may mistakenly think you are interesting and fun when they first meet you.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Nice Guy + Mean Girl = The most boring movie plot ever.
Mean Guy + Nice Girl = The most bland movie plot ever
Mean Guy + Mean Girl = The most B.A. movie ever!

Anyways, Niceness doesn't pay off. Being nice is for pansies who have nothing better to do. I have personally been nice in the past, then I realized it wasn't worth it. Now look at me, I have all the friends I need!

So you decided that being an asshole was a better idea instead.

[Albul]

Nice Guy + Mean Girl = The most boring movie plot ever.
Mean Guy + Nice Girl = The most bland movie plot ever
Mean Guy + Mean Girl = The most B.A. movie ever!

Anyways, Niceness doesn't pay off. Being nice is for pansies who have nothing better to do. I have personally been nice in the past, then I realized it wasn't worth it. Now look at me, I have all the friends I need!

So you don't need friends. Congratulations.

What good are friends when nice people are uncommon? Besides, I have friends...

Anyways, the "Nice Guy" concept is a tough subject. If you're being nice to get into her pants through furtive means, then you're worse than a jerk who openly wants to get laid. At least the jerk makes his intentions clear! Now, if you're inherently a nice guy like me, then you're sure to get a lot of friends and there is nothing wrong with that. You should be happy that you at least have friends. are doing something nice to someone else.

Society's attitude? A Nice Guy is pathetic. The friendzone seems like an abyss of some sort.

Meanness generally doesn't make for good movie plots, because bullying is boring and we've all seen it a billion times before. It's like how comedians who have to make racist or sexist "jokes" are always profoundly unfunny, because they're so uncreative and boring.

Furthermore, being mean doesn't require any bravery or toughness, or any skill at all. All it takes to be mean is that you be self-centered enough to not give a shit what other people feel, and that you lack impulse control. This is why babies and spoilt children are easily able to master being mean.

The one thing I can agree with is that it's not worth being nice if you are a mean person. That wastes everyone's time, because they may mistakenly think you are interesting and fun when they first meet you.

I was thinking of Mr. and Mrs. Smith. I thought it was a rather decent movie. I generally don't go for romantic movies, anyways. You're right; it is easier to be mean.

You know some pretty strange people if they enjoy having mean friends...

Mainly arrogant people who brag about themselves and don't care about anyone else. What keeps us all together is that trait.

[The Blaatschapen]

It's not that easy being mean - Kermit the frog

[Albul]

It's not that easy being mean nice enough to get laid by all the ladies - Kermit the frog

Quote corrected.

[Bottle]

It's not that easy being mean nice enough to get laid by all the ladies - Kermit the frog

Quote corrected.

Unless "All The Ladies" is the name of your pet sitting-hen, I think it's safe to say that absolutely nothing is getting laid by all the ladies.

[Albul]

Quote corrected.

Unless "All The Ladies" is the name of your pet sitting-hen, I think it's safe to say that absolutely nothing is getting laid by all the ladies.

True. What was presented here is an example of "Nice Guy" idealism. Granted, meanness isn't good either, but I'd much rather have a mean person than a creepy nice person.

[Meryuma]

No one's saying being nice to girls you have a crush on is secretly evil or whatever. It's more that "the friendzone" as talked about by straight males on the internet is a pile of heteropatriarchal bullshit based around a deeply not nice view of women.

Also, you're a straight male. You're attracted to the most numerous gender/sexual orientation combination on the planet (heterosexual females) and your perspective on sex and relationships is the default one displayed by society. Unless you're obese or have social anxiety problems or something, you probably don't have it that bad when it comes to this kind of thing.

[Albul]

No one's saying being nice to girls you have a crush on is secretly evil or whatever. It's more that "the friendzone" as talked about by straight males on the internet is a pile of heteropatriarchal bullshit based around a deeply not nice view of women.

Also, you're a straight male. You're attracted to the most numerous gender/sexual orientation combination on the planet (heterosexual females) and your perspective on sex and relationships is the default one displayed by society. Unless you're obese or have social anxiety problems or something, you probably don't have it that bad when it comes to this kind of thing.

I live in a conservative state in the USA and I am neither rich nor straight nor white nor attractive, according to a girl. I don't blame her.

Also, is the "friendzone" even a thing? I've heard of it, but I've never experienced its supposed agony and whatnot.

Therefore, it is a societal issue and a coping technique for men who can't get in a relationship. Pretty sure society does the same thing for women by somehow making every guy look incompetent.

[Potenco]

If one does not enjoy the simple virtue of being a good friend enough to feel good about being "the nice guy", than I doubt he is really all that nice.

[Tahar Joblis]

It certainly does matter, given that the only way to actually know is for B to have declared that they like A. It doesn't matter what B wrote in their diary, because B could've decided that they didn't like A in the time since that was written.

If they declare it aloud, they could be lying, if you want to go down that road. Formal gestures are not appreciably better than informal intelligence in such matters; indeed, fulfilling ritual precisely is one way to conceal intention and authenticity. The formal rituals of traditional courtship are no more privileged with sincerity than a pickup artist's playbook.

If they've asked her out, then yes, she does know.

Whether or not she likes them? IME, men and women have quite particular tastes and inclinations. If she's not picky and just being lazy about waiting for some dude to ask her out, the problem is as much either lack of attractiveness (he's not attractive enough for her to take initiative) or her lack of initiative (she's being lazy) as it is his lack of initiative.

It takes two to tango.

Or alternatively, she thinks he and one of many other guys could be worthy potential partners and will go on a date with whichever one of them asks her out first.

So what you're proposing as an alternative is that a woman may be most accurately perceived as a passive sex vending machine, which requires specific formalistic rituals to unlock in addition to some list of static qualifications she compares men to; rather than simply being thought of being a human with full agency (just like men), who acts of her own accord (just like men), and is responsible for letting pass through inaction opportunities she is aware of (just like men).

Passive sex vending machines. Specific rituals. List of static qualifications.

Hm. This sounds familiar.

Oh! I know! The fashionable feminist narrative surrounding nice guys! That's where I've heard it before!

Look. My point is not that girls are entirely to blame for boys and girls who are willing and interested in one another failing to have their happy little romances. My point is that deciding to lay all blame at the feet of the male of some such pairing is often premature presumption, and in some cases totally wrong. There is little reason we should hold men in particular responsible for taking initiative, outside of simple adherence to sexist ideology. If a man and a woman are letting an opportunity pass between them, blame should be apportioned between the both of them without respect to which is which.

[Galborg]

If one does not enjoy the simple virtue of being a good friend enough to feel good about being "the nice guy", than I doubt he is really all that nice.

THAT is the difference between Friend and Friendzone.

If the Woman is your Friend, you get joy and love and emotional commitment, BUT no sex.

If the Woman puts you in Friendzone category, you get zilch, nada, the square root of bugger all.


If the Woman is your Friend, you get SOME love, but no sex.

If you are her Friendzone, you get no sex, you get no love; but she dangles the carrot that you MIGHT get sex later at some indefinite date in the future.

[The Parkus Empire]

I think the overriding issue with "nice guy" is quite simple: it seems to be a tendency to blame women for not liking a particular guy (which they actually might, which he might find out if he bothered to), rather than blaming the guy. The very use of the term "nice" to describe guys who are having difficulty starting relationships implies that women don't like niceness, which means there's clearly something wrong with women, rather than the guy in question--that's pretty egotistical.

It would make a lot more sense to use the term "shy guy".

[Tahar Joblis]

No one's saying being nice to girls you have a crush on is secretly evil or whatever. It's more that "the friendzone" as talked about by straight males on the internet is a pile of heteropatriarchal bullshit based around a deeply not nice view of women.

I would say that it's more based around the way women who are deeply not nice use men who are willing to provide emotional, financial, material (etc) support to them without ever giving back. The "friend zone tragedy" story has been built more around one-sided "friendships" where one friend does all the giving and the other friend does all the taking; the complaints surrounding it have more to do with viewing men as economic objects than viewing women as sexual objects.

And, to be very blunt, without the various stigmas and bullshit surrounding it, the "friendzone" is a pretty useful word to describe how some people relate to each other, and people of all genders, orientations, et cetera get put in there. It's not always a one-sided friendship, either, those are just the cases where something wrong is going on. Attraction is not always mutual; it's just that simple. I've friendzoned women. Some women have friendzoned me at some point, I think - I'm having trouble thinking of a good example, which is either thanks to my devilishly good looks or my sieve-like memory - but none of us have ever sat there in a one-sided friendship full of unrequited lust.

It's always at least been a two-sided friendship, half-filled with unrequited lust. And while I sometimes regret the damage I may have inadvertently caused to others by failing to sleep with a woman, I have taken pains not to maltreat women in my friend zone as friends on top of that. There are plenty of tales of woe from nice guys and nice gals alike about how their "friend" used them poorly; and plenty of those tales of woe center on their unrequited pains in the grip of foul Cupid.

I have looked at the feminist re-imagining of the nice guy. It is for the most part paranoid ... and heteropatriarchal, if you care to buy into that vocabulary ... bullshit.

[The Parkus Empire]

No one's saying being nice to girls you have a crush on is secretly evil or whatever. It's more that "the friendzone" as talked about by straight males on the internet is a pile of heteropatriarchal bullshit based around a deeply not nice view of women.

I would say that it's more based around the way women who are deeply not nice use men who are willing to provide emotional, financial, material (etc) support to them without ever giving back.

"Giving back" meaning "putting out"? or just being a good friend in return?

[Arcturus IV]

I think the overriding issue with "nice guy" is quite simple: it seems to be a tendency to blame women for not liking a particular guy (which they actually might, which he might find out if he bothered to), rather than blaming the guy. The very use of the term "nice" to describe guys who are having difficulty starting relationships implies that women don't like niceness, which means there's clearly something wrong with women, rather than the guy in question--that's pretty egotistical.

It would make a lot more sense to use the term "shy guy".

But really, shy doesn't begin to cover it. Not all shy guys find themselves in these situations, and not all guys finding themselves in these situations are shy.

[The Parkus Empire]

I think the overriding issue with "nice guy" is quite simple: it seems to be a tendency to blame women for not liking a particular guy (which they actually might, which he might find out if he bothered to), rather than blaming the guy. The very use of the term "nice" to describe guys who are having difficulty starting relationships implies that women don't like niceness, which means there's clearly something wrong with women, rather than the guy in question--that's pretty egotistical.

It would make a lot more sense to use the term "shy guy".

But really, shy doesn't begin to cover it. Not all shy guys find themselves in these situations, and not all guys finding themselves in these situations are shy.

"Afraid-of-rejection guys"?

[Arcturus IV]

But really, shy doesn't begin to cover it. Not all shy guys find themselves in these situations, and not all guys finding themselves in these situations are shy.

"Afraid-of-rejection guys"?

"Indecisive guys". Which in and of itself is not a bad thing. People can be indecisive for many reasons, and it can be beneficial, just as it can be detrimental.

[Tahar Joblis]

I would say that it's more based around the way women who are deeply not nice use men who are willing to provide emotional, financial, material (etc) support to them without ever giving back.

"Giving back" meaning "putting out"? or just being a good friend in return?

Either method of "giving back" tends to reduce the "friend zone" complaints, if you want to bring that up. This is because when guys complain about girls using them for support while putting out in exchange, the complaints get filed under "relationship issues" or "prostitution" categories instead. I'm not saying that is necessarily less dysfunctional, mind; but it doesn't lead to "friend zone" complaints because of the way the friend zone gets defined.

I was talking about being a good friend in return, though. IMO, if you're not being a good friend in return to someone who you are using as a good friend to you and is in love with you, then whether or not you're banging them, you are doing something wrong. I'm judgemental like that.

[The Parkus Empire]

"Afraid-of-rejection guys"?

"Indecisive guys". Which in and of itself is not a bad thing. People can be indecisive for many reasons, and it can be beneficial, just as it can be detrimental.

Being indecisive about asking a woman out is just deciding on no. It's not any better than being indecisive about getting a dental check up.