Does God Exist?

[Hydronium]

That logic is highly flawed.

1) Persecution does not make one suddenly stop having a beleif. It was inherrantly easier to be a Communist supporter in the USSR than it was to be a Tsarist. People have beleifs which are often highly flawed which they are willing to die and suffer for, especially when it is so intrinsicly tied to their identity.
In a similar fashion, the implication is that everybody would have walked away from mohammad during the early days of Islam for the persecution they received when they were kicked out of Mecca, or that Islam would cease to exist in spain because of the persecution following the end of Al-Andalus. Its simply a wrong hypothesis.

2) Survivabilaty does not = truth. Zoroastrians have gone through far more persecution than Christians have over the millenia. Furthermore Hindu`s have been horribly opressed by Christian powers and at war with Islamic ones for centuries. Zoroastrianism, Hinduism and Christianity all negate eachother, and yet all have equal validity by your standard for truth.

Also, Islam wasn't a "convert or die" sort of thing. It was more "hey, we rule you now. You can keep your religion, but you'll need to pay a tax." It also believed that all believers were equal, which of course was pretty appealing to lower class people.

If all Islamist believers are equal, then why is one sect trying to blow up another?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I definitely should make sense. A claimed perfect being such as God must, by default, be perfectly capable of falling within the boundaries of reason.

Not your reason, his ways are higher than yours and every culture has a different perception of 'Reason'.

I said "boundaries" of reason, not "my reason".

A perfect barometer is the perfect machine model. If you think God is perfect, then why didn't he create a perfect universe in which he wouldn't have to interfere, and if he did, why do you think he's needed to run the show and intervene?

[The USOT]

(BTW: Christians don't persecute

Plus, Christianity went through more persecution than the Jews could ever dream of.

After almost two millenia of Jewish Pogroms, slaughter, the numerous concentration camps and attempts at genocide, you must have the worlds biggest persecution complex to genuinly beleive christians have had it worse.

[Agorya]

Has anyone bothered to ask Him if He exists?

I have. Unsurprisingly, none of the fictional characters answered me.

it's okay, I used to believe a fat old man in a red suit used to break into my house once every year and give me gifts for upholding the status quo.

[The USOT]

Also, Islam wasn't a "convert or die" sort of thing. It was more "hey, we rule you now. You can keep your religion, but you'll need to pay a tax." It also believed that all believers were equal, which of course was pretty appealing to lower class people.

If all Islamist believers are equal, then why is one sect trying to blow up another?

Because every ideology has extremists?

Thats like saying if beleif in america is correct, how come some americans blow up abortion clinics? A completely nonsensical statement.

[Shaggai]

I definitely should make sense. A claimed perfect being such as God must, by default, be perfectly capable of falling within the boundaries of reason.

Not your reason, his ways are higher than yours and every culture has a different perception of 'Reason'.

No. No they don't.

If I'm wrong, name two cultures with a different perception of reason, and what the difference is.

[Hydronium]

(BTW: Christians don't persecute

Plus, Christianity went through more persecution than the Jews could ever dream of.

After almost two millenia of Jewish Pogroms, slaughter, the numerous concentration camps and attempts at genocide, you must have the worlds biggest persecution complex to genuinly beleive christians have had it worse.

At least Jews were taken away from their families so that their children didn't have to watch them suffer.

And also, by the time jewish persecution was in full swing, it was already a thriving religion. Christianity was attacked soon after the Ascension of Jesus. (BTW: i don't have a problem with nonchristian religions, only when those religions directly hurt Christianity.)

[Hydronium]

If all Islamist believers are equal, then why is one sect trying to blow up another?

Because every ideology has extremists?

Thats like saying if beleif in america is correct, how come some americans blow up abortion clinics? A completely nonsensical statement.

The difference is that in Christianity, the extremists are few and far between, while Islamic attack happen every day.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

After almost two millenia of Jewish Pogroms, slaughter, the numerous concentration camps and attempts at genocide, you must have the worlds biggest persecution complex to genuinly beleive christians have had it worse.

At least Jews were taken away from their families so that their children didn't have to watch them suffer.

And also, by the time jewish persecution was in full swing, it was already a thriving religion. Christianity was attacked soon after the Ascension of Jesus. (BTW: i don't have a problem with nonchristian religions, only when those religions directly hurt Christianity.)

So, the Jewish persecution is justifiable because the countries in which they were on tore apart families and because it was an ancient religion?

What?!

Also, shouldn't the same way be with Christians towards other people who are non-Christians or even non-theists?

[Hydronium]

At least Jews were taken away from their families so that their children didn't have to watch them suffer.

And also, by the time jewish persecution was in full swing, it was already a thriving religion. Christianity was attacked soon after the Ascension of Jesus. (BTW: i don't have a problem with nonchristian religions, only when those religions directly hurt Christianity.)

So, the Jewish persecution is justifiable because the countries in which they were on tore apart families and because it was an ancient religion?

What?!

Also, shouldn't the same way be with Christians towards other people who are non-Christians or even non-theists?

It wasn't uncommon for a family to watch eachother die slowly painfully and helpless.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Because every ideology has extremists?

Thats like saying if beleif in america is correct, how come some americans blow up abortion clinics? A completely nonsensical statement.

The difference is that in Christianity, the extremists are few and far between, while Islamic attack happen every day.

Out of 2.2 billion people who are Christians, do you really think there are FEW extremists?

[Shaggai]

If all Islamist believers are equal, then why is one sect trying to blow up another?

Because every ideology has extremists?

Thats like saying if beleif in america is correct, how come some americans blow up abortion clinics? A completely nonsensical statement.

Thank you. Also, not all extremists follow the teachings of Islam. One of the rules Muhhamed gave for conduct in warfare was not to kill innocents. Another was not to kill trees. (That last one makes sense in context.) Plenty of extremists have killed both. Also, killing Christians and Jews was wrong, as they were also Abrahamic religions. Extremists don't really count.

[Ainin]

That makes no sense.

It shoudn't make sense to you for his ways are higher to yours.

If your god doesn't make sense, he's not perfect.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

It wasn't uncommon for a family to watch eachother die slowly painfully and helpless.

Still, taking parents away from children, for the sole purpose of being "humane" isn't little more than a decency show. It still didn't make any of what they did right or better than Christian persecution.

[The USOT]

After almost two millenia of Jewish Pogroms, slaughter, the numerous concentration camps and attempts at genocide, you must have the worlds biggest persecution complex to genuinly beleive christians have had it worse.

At least Jews were taken away from their families so that their children didn't have to watch them suffer.

And also, by the time jewish persecution was in full swing, it was already a thriving religion. Christianity was attacked soon after the Ascension of Jesus. (BTW: i don't have a problem with nonchristian religions, only when those religions directly hurt Christianity.)

...Im not going to carry on this conversation. Not because I have an inherrant issue with you, but that your standards of truth and persecution are warped to such a point where any kind of useful discussion is impossible.

[Abritus]

Not your reason, his ways are higher than yours and every culture has a different perception of 'Reason'.

I said "boundaries" of reason, not "my reason".

A perfect barometer is the perfect machine model. If you think God is perfect, then why didn't he create a perfect universe in which he wouldn't have to interfere, and if he did, why do you think he's needed to run the show and intervene?

God created man in his image and after that he gave him and her the right to choose either to sin or to follow his ways and he didn't make us perfect neither and what is this perfect universe that you speak of please define to me what exactly is a 'perfect universe'?

[Abritus]

It shoudn't make sense to you for his ways are higher to yours.

If your god doesn't make sense, he's not perfect.

Typical liberal way of thinking why don't you come out of the box once in a while.

[Ainin]

If your god doesn't make sense, he's not perfect.

Typical liberal way of thinking why don't you come out of the box once in a while.

How can your god be perfect if he cannot be understood? And I'm a social democrat, thank you very much.

[Hydronium]

OK then, let's talk about Islam. Islam has a story about the golden calf and Moses, right. And, correct me if I'm wrong, it said that a Samaritan led the people to betray God.

[Samp]

I say God doesn't exist, because there is a lot of science to prove otherwise. To me, reigion was made by those scared of what happens when you die, and people just trolling the entire world (like Jesus and Muhammad).

[Abritus]

Not your reason, his ways are higher than yours and every culture has a different perception of 'Reason'.

No. No they don't.

If I'm wrong, name two cultures with a different perception of reason, and what the difference is.

Aisan culture in general tends to be much more conservative and diciplined while the culture of western Europe tends to be more liberal and self indulgent.

[Tsuntion]

God created man in his image and after that he gave him and her the right to choose either to sin or to follow his ways

But he created man without knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong. This means that man couldn't know that it was wrong to disobey God. Since man didn't know it was wrong, he shouldn't have been punished for it like he was -- the fact that God did that means God is mean and unfair.

and he didn't make us perfect neither and what is this perfect universe that you speak of please define to me what exactly is a 'perfect universe'?

You believe that God created us in his image. You probably believe that God is perfect. Therefore, we also were surely perfect.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I said "boundaries" of reason, not "my reason".

A perfect barometer is the perfect machine model. If you think God is perfect, then why didn't he create a perfect universe in which he wouldn't have to interfere, and if he did, why do you think he's needed to run the show and intervene?

God created man in his image and after that he gave him and her the right to choose either to sin or to follow his ways and he didn't make us perfect neither and what is this perfect universe that you speak of please define to me what exactly is a 'perfect universe'?

You cannot have free will without prior knowledge of what the choices are and you cannot calculate which one is better for you. So the whole Adam and Eve story shoots itself in the foot.

And if he did not make us perfect, and he did not make the universe perfect (as in, a self-contained universe in which he would not have to interfere because it is imperfect and there are glitches in the system) then why do you attribute "perfection" to him?

Also, if he created us in his image, but he did not make us perfect, where is this "perfection" you speak of?

[Agorya]

I said "boundaries" of reason, not "my reason".

A perfect barometer is the perfect machine model. If you think God is perfect, then why didn't he create a perfect universe in which he wouldn't have to interfere, and if he did, why do you think he's needed to run the show and intervene?

God created man in his image and after that he gave him and her the right to choose either to sin or to follow his ways and he didn't make us perfect neither and what is this perfect universe that you speak of please define to me what exactly is a 'perfect universe'?

A perfect universe is where right wing reactionaries don't exist, and everyone is having big socialist orgy parties. At least that's what I am getting the gist of.

[Abritus]

Typical liberal way of thinking why don't you come out of the box once in a while.

How can your god be perfect if he cannot be understood? And I'm a social democrat, thank you very much.

Still on the left side there pal, anyway we cannot understand him because we are not perfect and yet he is.