Gay bars: Discriminatory?

[Olthar]

I used to agree with those ideals. Then I grew up and stopped being childishly naive. Despite what children's cartoons imply, the world won't become a better place just through the power of positive thinking and friendship. Gays are, to this day, horribly oppressed and persecuted. That's not going to just go away no matter how much you try to ignore it, and your flowery speech about being kind to everyone isn't going to sway any minds. It's sad, but it's true.

So believing in equality for all and working for that is childish?

If you go about it in a naive way, yes. Working towards equality is not, itself, a terrible goal. On the contrary, it's quite just and noble. However, it only works if you exist within the realm of reality and work towards it with effective methods that are likely to actually yield beneficial results.

Also, I find the bar's policy understandable in what they are trying to do which is create a safe place for gays to be at and have some fun

Some people seem to disagree.

[Premislyd]

Or you could prove me wrong and point out the consistency in your posts.

Your choice, really.

"You're being incoherent"
"Um...no"
"Well prove you're not being incoherent, then!"

Top drawer, just top drawer.

Glad to you're contributing nothing to the conversation

[Gravlen]

What part of "still a reminder that they're still a second class citizen" do you not understand? If you go to a gay bar and make out with your girlfriend, it's a reminder to all the gay people present that they are oppressed. It's offensive and supremely selfish to force your way into their world and then claim that they're the ones oppressing you.

It's probably because I myself am not discriminated against by most people for any reason. When I am discriminated against for being Jewish (very rare), I just brush it off.

Allow me to attempt making an analogy based on your faith:

Jews are in the minority in the US, about 1.7%. They have their own sites dedicated to their faith and worship (synagogues) and there's quite a few non-Jewish people supporting their right to religious freedom. These non-Jewish people are allowed to enter synagogues, speak to rabbis, read Jewish texts etc.

A couple of these non-Jewish people, who've come along to the synagogue, would like to practice their faith while they're there. A couple of people doing that would be relatively unproblematic, wouldn't it, sharing the house of worship? (Though Jews are spat at or threatened if they are seen in a church or mosque.)

Now more and more non-Jewish people show up at these synagogues, and soon there's more non-Jewish people there than Jewish people, something which could lead to Jewish people feeling they're slowly being driven out, no longer having a safe space to worship.

Imagine the synagogue starts to discriminate against non-Jewish people, saying they cannot worship in the synagogue. Is that problematic?

[Sailsia]

"You're being incoherent"
"Um...no"
"Well prove you're not being incoherent, then!"

Top drawer, just top drawer.

These guys are the equivalent of top drawer alcohol.

OH NOEZ! Da big bad NSGers r insulting uz!? Wee must chanj ower wayz!

[Sailsia]

"You're being incoherent"
"Um...no"
"Well prove you're not being incoherent, then!"

Top drawer, just top drawer.

Glad to you're contributing nothing to the conversation

Ifreann? Contribute to the conversation in a meaningful respectful way? That'll be the day!

[Orcoa]

So believing in equality for all and working for that is childish?

If you go about it in a naive way, yes. Working towards equality is not, itself, a terrible goal. On the contrary, it's quite just and noble. However, it only works if you exist within the realm of reality and work towards it with effective methods that are likely to actually yield beneficial results.

Also, I find the bar's policy understandable in what they are trying to do which is create a safe place for gays to be at and have some fun

Some people seem to disagree.

I guess I can see why you would think that way.

At first I thought maybe you were cynical, which I can understand, but maybe it's ok to be a little bit naive and believe in such things.

[Olthar]

I suppose it was too much to ask for then.

I guess so. I thought it was generally expected for people in a debate to read all the information present, but apparently the suggestion to go read the entire thread which would adequately answer your question was too much to ask.

[Sailsia]

It's probably because I myself am not discriminated against by most people for any reason. When I am discriminated against for being Jewish (very rare), I just brush it off.

Allow me to attempt making an analogy based on your faith:

Jews are in the minority in the US, about 1.7%. They have their own sites dedicated to their faith and worship (synagogues) and there's quite a few non-Jewish people supporting their right to religious freedom. These non-Jewish people are allowed to enter synagogues, speak to rabbis, read Jewish texts etc.

OKAY STOP RIGHT THERE. Like.... no. Just... no. You should have stopped right there.

[The Realm of God]

So believing in equality for all and working for that is childish?

If you go about it in a naive way, yes. Working towards equality is not, itself, a terrible goal. On the contrary, it's quite just and noble. However, it only works if you exist within the realm of reality and work towards it with effective methods that are likely to actually yield beneficial results.

Also, I find the bar's policy understandable in what they are trying to do which is create a safe place for gays to be at and have some fun

Some people seem to disagree.

Expressing a rhetoric which asks for equality of all people, asks for education and equality under the law is not in fact naive and you can work towards it in better ways than being arbitrary on what people can and can't do based simply on a characteristic they cannot help.

[Sailsia]

I suppose it was too much to ask for then.

I guess so. I thought it was generally expected for people in a debate to read all the information present, but apparently the suggestion to go read the entire thread which would adequately answer your question was too much to ask.

Considering you're still debating, you obviously haven't made a decisive point in the whole 50 pages. He's giving you an opportunity to put it in one concise post us little kiddlings can read, but I suppose that's too much for you to handle.

[Olthar]

If you go about it in a naive way, yes. Working towards equality is not, itself, a terrible goal. On the contrary, it's quite just and noble. However, it only works if you exist within the realm of reality and work towards it with effective methods that are likely to actually yield beneficial results.


Some people seem to disagree.

I guess I can see why you would think that way.

At first I thought maybe you were cynical, which I can understand, but maybe it's ok to be a little bit naive and believe in such things.

Cynical? Oh god no. The only reason I'm still alive is because I seem to possess a limitless well of optimism. If I didn't, I would have killed myself ages ago.

[Premislyd]

I guess so. I thought it was generally expected for people in a debate to read all the information present, but apparently the suggestion to go read the entire thread which would adequately answer your question was too much to ask.

Considering you're still debating, you obviously haven't made a decisive point in the whole 50 pages. He's giving you an opportunity to put it in one concise post us little kiddlings can read, but I suppose that's too much for you to handle.

That would require Olthar to actually bring up some points and be consistent for a bit.

[Ifreann]

Sure. Go back and read the previous 50 pages of the thread.


I've explained it so simply that an elementary school child could understand. If you need it to be simpler than that, then there's no point if further discussion with you.

I suppose it was too much to ask for then. Insulting school children's intelligence is another matter entirely though, as well as insulting mine. All I'm trying to do is understand your position, and if possible amend it, because as I said it's logically flawed and easily snatched from under you. For all intents and purposes, people who insist on making every little social problem and event a big deal for or against their opinions only make the problem worse. By failing being unwilling to properly explain yourself and instead insist that you are in the right, you only make yourself seem bad. You mentioned that people are trying to discredit you? You're doing that to yourself, most people are just making statements or asking questions.

But like I said, arguing like this is ridiculous. No one benefits, no one learns anything and some people even come out of this hating/disliking homosexual even more because of the poor conduct of one. So there you have it, I suppose. It's worthless at this point.

Oh please, anyone whose opinion of gay people depends on how Olthar goes about arguing on NSG is too prejudiced to bother with at all.

[Orcoa]

I guess I can see why you would think that way.

At first I thought maybe you were cynical, which I can understand, but maybe it's ok to be a little bit naive and believe in such things.

Cynical? Oh god no. The only reason I'm still alive is because I seem to possess a limitless well of optimism. If I didn't, I would have killed myself ages ago.

I think I live a lot by these words, it helps me a lot

"Dreams save us. Dreams lift us up and transform us. And on my soul, I swear… until my dream of a world where dignity, honor and justice becomes the reality we all share - I’ll never stop fighting. Ever."

[Premislyd]

Oh please, anyone whose opinion of gay people depends on how Olthar goes about arguing on NSG is too prejudiced to bother with at all.

"I support tolerance, unless your intolerant, then you're just subhuman slime who should be killed"

[Olthar]

Cynical? Oh god no. The only reason I'm still alive is because I seem to possess a limitless well of optimism. If I didn't, I would have killed myself ages ago.

I think I live a lot by these words, it helps me a lot

"Dreams save us. Dreams lift us up and transform us. And on my soul, I swear… until my dream of a world where dignity, honor and justice becomes the reality we all share - I’ll never stop fighting. Ever."

Nice words.

[-Deus-]

I suppose it was too much to ask for then. Insulting school children's intelligence is another matter entirely though, as well as insulting mine. All I'm trying to do is understand your position, and if possible amend it, because as I said it's logically flawed and easily snatched from under you. For all intents and purposes, people who insist on making every little social problem and event a big deal for or against their opinions only make the problem worse. By failing being unwilling to properly explain yourself and instead insist that you are in the right, you only make yourself seem bad. You mentioned that people are trying to discredit you? You're doing that to yourself, most people are just making statements or asking questions.

But like I said, arguing like this is ridiculous. No one benefits, no one learns anything and some people even come out of this hating/disliking homosexual even more because of the poor conduct of one. So there you have it, I suppose. It's worthless at this point.

Oh please, anyone whose opinion of gay people depends on how Olthar goes about arguing on NSG is too prejudiced to bother with at all.

That's a little short sighted, man. Simply ignoring people because they're too ignorant to be bothered with isn't really beneficial or positive for anyone. But perhaps such an apathetic attitude like that is why we're in such a mess to begin with. A real shame.

[Orcoa]

I think I live a lot by these words, it helps me a lot

"Dreams save us. Dreams lift us up and transform us. And on my soul, I swear… until my dream of a world where dignity, honor and justice becomes the reality we all share - I’ll never stop fighting. Ever."

Nice words.

I try to live by them and someday I wish to see a dream such as that come true.

[Ascelonia]

I try to live by them and someday I wish to see a dream such as that come true.

Until your dream of exterminating heterosexuality and making unnatural sodomy the norm comes true? No thanks.

[Olthar]

Nice words.

I try to live by them and someday I wish to see a dream such as that come true.

That would be a good world to live in, and I hope it can become a reality someday.

[The Realm of God]

Nice words.

I try to live by them and someday I wish to see a dream such as that come true.

The way I see it is that it doesn't matter if the dream ever happens and I don't think it will (new prejudice always replaces the old) but that doesn't matter. All that matters is that someone lives for those ideals and thus someone even if its one person, will have breathed a little easier because you once lived.

[Ifreann]

"You're being incoherent"
"Um...no"
"Well prove you're not being incoherent, then!"

Top drawer, just top drawer.

These guys are the equivalent of top drawer alcohol.

Top drawer alcohol would take offence, if it could.

---

"You're being incoherent"
"Um...no"
"Well prove you're not being incoherent, then!"

Top drawer, just top drawer.

Glad to you're contributing nothing to the conversation

Pointing out how you fail at burden of proof is contributing to the conversation.

---

Glad to you're contributing nothing to the conversation

Ifreann? Contribute to the conversation in a meaningful respectful way? That'll be the day!

If you have me on ignore you're supposed to actually ignore my posts, even when other people quote them. PROTIP.

---

Allow me to attempt making an analogy based on your faith:

Jews are in the minority in the US, about 1.7%. They have their own sites dedicated to their faith and worship (synagogues) and there's quite a few non-Jewish people supporting their right to religious freedom. These non-Jewish people are allowed to enter synagogues, speak to rabbis, read Jewish texts etc.

OKAY STOP RIGHT THERE. Like.... no. Just... no. You should have stopped right there.

Quality argument you have there. Detailed. Nuanced. Insightful. Gold medal, guys?

---

Oh please, anyone whose opinion of gay people depends on how Olthar goes about arguing on NSG is too prejudiced to bother with at all.

"I support tolerance, unless your intolerant, then you're just subhuman slime who should be killed"

Not at all what I said.

[Ascelonia]

Allow me to attempt making an analogy based on your faith:

Jews are in the minority in the US, about 1.7%. They have their own sites dedicated to their faith and worship (synagogues) and there's quite a few non-Jewish people supporting their right to religious freedom. These non-Jewish people are allowed to enter synagogues, speak to rabbis, read Jewish texts etc.

A couple of these non-Jewish people, who've come along to the synagogue, would like to practice their faith while they're there. A couple of people doing that would be relatively unproblematic, wouldn't it, sharing the house of worship? (Though Jews are spat at or threatened if they are seen in a church or mosque.)

Now more and more non-Jewish people show up at these synagogues, and soon there's more non-Jewish people there than Jewish people, something which could lead to Jewish people feeling they're slowly being driven out, no longer having a safe space to worship.

Imagine the synagogue starts to discriminate against non-Jewish people, saying they cannot worship in the synagogue. Is that problematic?

Jews are the chosen people. They are a far more discriminated minority than any other race, gender, sect, or creed in the world. As such, we provide unlimited support to the freedom protecting state of Israel and to the Jewish people of America. However, it is shameful that qualified Jewish applicants to jobs and universities are discriminated against, because of affirmative action. Something must be done about this.

Continuing from his point. I think there must be a degree of separation between Jews and Christians, sodomites and normal people, and men and women.

[Orcoa]

I try to live by them and someday I wish to see a dream such as that come true.

Until your dream of exterminating heterosexuality and making unnatural sodomy the norm comes true? No thanks.

That is not the dream I have.

The dream is for all people, from blacks, to whites, to Christians and atheists, to homosexuals and heterosexuals to be united and free.

I want to see them acted as brother and sisters, as one specie to make this world better.

That is the dream I believe in.

[Premislyd]

Not at all what I said.

Keep telling yourself that.

Or rather since you're just grinding on every post Olthar makes, just let Olthar keep telling you that.