NYT: Jeep Cherokee, culturally insenstive??

[Cetacea]

Does that also make it culturally insensitive for us to call Irish made whiskey Irish? Or a French kiss a French kiss?

Using a derogatory term for something would be culturally insensitive, yes (example: Washington Redskins. God I hate them), but using a proper name? Not so much.

This is actually getting close to the crux of the issue. Irish Whiskey made by Irish is a badge of cultural 'ownership' which actively honours the cultural history of the product in question. French kissing is a bit more iffy but it does acknowledge a supposed cultural association. The importance of cultural association and commercial products can be seen in the French actively protecting use of the name 'Champagne'.

Jeep using the name Cherokee does nothing to honour the cultural history of the vehicle because Jeep has no cultural connection to the people in question. If they had at least consulted then a connection might have been established, but until it does the use of the name is exploitive. It might be minor on the scale of all issues to worry about but if the French can protect the name Champagne then why shouldn't first nations have the same right to their own names too?

[New Maldorainia]

Does that also make it culturally insensitive for us to call Irish made whiskey Irish? Or a French kiss a French kiss?

Using a derogatory term for something would be culturally insensitive, yes (example: Washington Redskins. God I hate them), but using a proper name? Not so much.

This is actually getting close to the crux of the issue. Irish Whiskey made by Irish is a badge of cultural 'ownership' which actively honours the cultural history of the product in question. French kissing is a bit more iffy but it does acknowledge a supposed cultural association. The importance of cultural association and commercial products can be seen in the French actively protecting use of the name 'Champagne'.

Jeep using the name Cherokee does nothing to honour the cultural history of the vehicle because Jeep has no cultural connection to the people in question. If they had at least consulted then a connection might have been established, but until it does the use of the name is exploitive. It might be minor on the scale of all issues to worry about but if the French can protect the name Champagne then why shouldn't first nations have the same right to their own names too?

How about Belgian waffles, and French fries?

[New Maldorainia]

Also I should add that GM had a car brand called Pontiac, named after a chief Pontiac of the Ottawa tribe, and no one ever asked if that was culturally insensitive, even in modern times.

[Algonquin Ascendancy]

Why? Because asking people's permission to use their name is that difficult?
As is stated in your OP, the Cherokee aren't offended by the use of their name, so what would it have cost Jeep if they had just written a letter to tribal leaders saying "We would like to use your name for one of our vehicles, is that okay with you?"

I am sure after using Grand Cherokee for so long without a peep, Chrysler never thought anyone would bring this issue up, which I do not blame them for.

I am primarily referring to the initial use.

[New Maldorainia]

I am sure after using Grand Cherokee for so long without a peep, Chrysler never thought anyone would bring this issue up, which I do not blame them for.

I am primarily referring to the initial use.

Doubt anyone thought of it in the 70's.

[Algonquin Ascendancy]

Also I should add that GM had a car brand called Pontiac, named after a chief Pontiac of the Ottawa tribe, and no one ever asked if that was culturally insensitive, even in modern times.

Someone should have, because it was. Assuming, of course, that GM didn't ask Ottawa tribal leaders if it was okay for them to do so.

I am primarily referring to the initial use.

Doubt anyone thought of it in the 70's.

Exactly. The use of it was culturally insensitive.

[Cetacea]

Also I should add that GM had a car brand called Pontiac, named after a chief Pontiac of the Ottawa tribe, and no one ever asked if that was culturally insensitive, even in modern times.

actually I've read a book on protest about 'indian' mascots which has mention of Pontiac, cant remember the name but the issue has been raised before.

[Northern Dominus]

Does that also make it culturally insensitive for us to call Irish made whiskey Irish? Or a French kiss a French kiss?

Using a derogatory term for something would be culturally insensitive, yes (example: Washington Redskins. God I hate them), but using a proper name? Not so much.

This is actually getting close to the crux of the issue. Irish Whiskey made by Irish is a badge of cultural 'ownership' which actively honours the cultural history of the product in question. French kissing is a bit more iffy but it does acknowledge a supposed cultural association. The importance of cultural association and commercial products can be seen in the French actively protecting use of the name 'Champagne'.

Jeep using the name Cherokee does nothing to honour the cultural history of the vehicle because Jeep has no cultural connection to the people in question. If they had at least consulted then a connection might have been established, but until it does the use of the name is exploitive. It might be minor on the scale of all issues to worry about but if the French can protect the name Champagne then why shouldn't first nations have the same right to their own names too?

I dunno if the name was being used to "honor" the Cherokee nation tribe so much as use their known name to conjure up an aura of hardiness, ruggedness and capability for their SUV. Marketing more than anything really.
Yes they should have gotten permission, but if Jeep is going to do that the least they could do is also make their SUV a bit more capable offroad like the Wrangler.

Also I should add that GM had a car brand called Pontiac, named after a chief Pontiac of the Ottawa tribe, and no one ever asked if that was culturally insensitive, even in modern times.

Someone should have, because it was. Assuming, of course, that GM didn't ask Ottawa tribal leaders if it was okay for them to do so.

Doubt anyone thought of it in the 70's.

Exactly. The use of it was culturally insensitive.

Look, to be fair at least Jeep isn't delving into bad 50s stereotypes. To name a car or anything a "redskin" these days would be met with a lot of back-blast and vitriol, or any other derogatory name as well. I agree it's not exactly forward thinking of them to just resurrect a name they've used for awhile, but at least they're not having an actor ride on horseback or using the image of the tribe to promote the vehicle in question, and maybe with enough scrutiny Jeep could be compelled to seek forgiveness and future permission from the tribe and donate to one of their charities.

[Algonquin Ascendancy]

Someone should have, because it was. Assuming, of course, that GM didn't ask Ottawa tribal leaders if it was okay for them to do so.


Exactly. The use of it was culturally insensitive.

Look, to be fair at least Jeep isn't delving into bad 50s stereotypes. To name a car or anything a "redskin" these days would be met with a lot of back-blast and vitriol, or any other derogatory name as well. I agree it's not exactly forward thinking of them to just resurrect a name they've used for awhile, but at least they're not having an actor ride on horseback or using the image of the tribe to promote the vehicle in question, and maybe with enough scrutiny Jeep could be compelled to seek forgiveness and future permission from the tribe and donate to one of their charities.

Really all I'm looking for is acknowledgment of it being culturally insensitive. The usage isn't demeaning or derogatory, so no real harm is done by it. It is, however, a symptom of the disregard for foreign cultures.

[Northern Dominus]

Look, to be fair at least Jeep isn't delving into bad 50s stereotypes. To name a car or anything a "redskin" these days would be met with a lot of back-blast and vitriol, or any other derogatory name as well. I agree it's not exactly forward thinking of them to just resurrect a name they've used for awhile, but at least they're not having an actor ride on horseback or using the image of the tribe to promote the vehicle in question, and maybe with enough scrutiny Jeep could be compelled to seek forgiveness and future permission from the tribe and donate to one of their charities.

Really all I'm looking for is acknowledgment of it being culturally insensitive. The usage isn't demeaning or derogatory, so no real harm is done by it. It is, however, a symptom of the disregard for foreign cultures.

Good luck getting that from Chrysler, let alone Fiat. The Italians aren't exactly known for their sensitivity in these matters...

[Algonquin Ascendancy]

Really all I'm looking for is acknowledgment of it being culturally insensitive. The usage isn't demeaning or derogatory, so no real harm is done by it. It is, however, a symptom of the disregard for foreign cultures.

Good luck getting that from Chrysler, let alone Fiat. The Italians aren't exactly known for their sensitivity in these matters...

Especially since the only place where I'm making said effort is here...

[Meritocratic States]

People bitch about almost everything now, do they?

[Northern Dominus]

Good luck getting that from Chrysler, let alone Fiat. The Italians aren't exactly known for their sensitivity in these matters...

Especially since the only place where I'm making said effort is here...

Now, if Jeep were to make a new SUV and call it the Ojibwa or the Anishinaabe, would that be a bit different in your case, just out of curiosity?

People bitch about almost everything now, do they?

Oh yeah, years of cultural deavistation only to be turned into a marketing tool without so much as an acknoweldgement of the name's origin, just overreacting really.

[Samozaryadnyastan]

Going by the idea of consulting, companies would sit around trying to find the most boring and bland names just to ensure no one was offended. You can't please everyone, and using a historic nameplate makes sense, except to enthusiasts of the original not happy with the type of vehicle this is.

Supposedly, Maserati consulted an American focus group on what they would prefer the tail lights to look like on the ~2005 Quattroporte.
The tail lights!

Look, to be fair at least Jeep isn't delving into bad 50s stereotypes. To name a car or anything a "redskin" these days would be met with a lot of back-blast and vitriol, or any other derogatory name as well. I agree it's not exactly forward thinking of them to just resurrect a name they've used for awhile, but at least they're not having an actor ride on horseback or using the image of the tribe to promote the vehicle in question, and maybe with enough scrutiny Jeep could be compelled to seek forgiveness and future permission from the tribe and donate to one of their charities.

Really all I'm looking for is acknowledgment of it being culturally insensitive. The usage isn't demeaning or derogatory, so no real harm is done by it. It is, however, a symptom of the disregard for foreign cultures.

I think the problem you're running into here is that "insensitive" has a charged meaning and has become practically synonymous with offensive, which as you've stated, it actually isn't.

Putting "culturally" in front of that "insensitive" is making everyone else devolve into a hardwired "oh God, political correctness" loop.
Trust me, I'm trying hard to keep out of that loop myself.

Oh yeah, years of cultural deavistation only to be turned into a marketing tool without so much as an acknoweldgement of the name's origin, just overreacting really.

That's a strange bit of logic in my opinion.
It's rather obvious that Cherokee is the name of a tribe.
I'm more than aware of that fact as a Brit, you Americans actually study the early American colonisation.

Would you question Lockheed Martin not "acknowledging the origin" of the name "Raptor"?

Fun fact, as I've just realised, I'm currently wearing jeans branded as Cherokee.
Tesco has an own-brand clothing brand, which is Cherokee.
Tesco has also been culturally insensitive, I guess?

[Choronzon]

I love when white people think their inability to see racism means it must not exist.

[Algonquin Ascendancy]

Especially since the only place where I'm making said effort is here...

Now, if Jeep were to make a new SUV and call it the Ojibwa or the Anishinaabe, would that be a bit different in your case, just out of curiosity?

I would disapprove greatly even if the tribal leaders were consulted and gave it their approval.

People bitch about almost everything now, do they?

Oh yeah, years of cultural deavistation only to be turned into a marketing tool without so much as an acknoweldgement of the name's origin, just overreacting really.

Not really that hard a concept to grasp, really...

[Samozaryadnyastan]

Now, if Jeep were to make a new SUV and call it the Ojibwa or the Anishinaabe, would that be a bit different in your case, just out of curiosity?

I would disapprove greatly even if the tribal leaders were consulted and gave it their approval.

How so? Up until now, I had figured this was the entirety of the issue.

[Algonquin Ascendancy]

Really all I'm looking for is acknowledgment of it being culturally insensitive. The usage isn't demeaning or derogatory, so no real harm is done by it. It is, however, a symptom of the disregard for foreign cultures.

I think the problem you're running into here is that "insensitive" has a charged meaning and has become practically synonymous with offensive, which as you've stated, it actually isn't.

Putting "culturally" in front of that "insensitive" is making everyone else devolve into a hardwired "oh God, political correctness" loop.
Trust me, I'm trying hard to keep out of that loop myself.

Hmmm... I didn't think of that. Merci.

Oh yeah, years of cultural deavistation only to be turned into a marketing tool without so much as an acknoweldgement of the name's origin, just overreacting really.

That's a strange bit of logic in my opinion.
It's rather obvious that Cherokee is the name of a tribe.
I'm more than aware of that fact as a Brit, you Americans actually study the early American colonisation.

Would you question Lockheed Martin not "acknowledging the origin" of the name "Raptor"?

Fun fact, as I've just realised, I'm currently wearing jeans branded as Cherokee.
Tesco has an own-brand clothing brand, which is Cherokee.
Tesco has also been culturally insensitive, I guess?

Oui, though again probably not a derogatory or harmful usage, I'm not familiar with the clothing line, but unless there's something dodgy with there marketing of said line...

[Samozaryadnyastan]

Nah, not at all.
Relatively plain, nicely-made clothes.

[Algonquin Ascendancy]

I would disapprove greatly even if the tribal leaders were consulted and gave it their approval.

How so? Up until now, I had figured this was the entirety of the issue.

In general, oui. In NDom's scenario though, one of the tribal names (Anishinabe) is the name of my tribe and I am not a fan of motor vehicles. So, it's a personal issue. My tribe being associated with automobiles is just not something that I would approve of.

[Sociobiology]

do you know where the word jeep came from?
how about durango?
car manufacturers have been naming them after anything they think sounds even remotely positive.
often without even checking to see what the word even means.

Other jeep brands
jeep honcho
jeep gladiator
jeep cowboy
jeep patriot
jeep kaiser
jeep pioneer
jeep golden eagle
jeep wagoner

It however would have been funnier if it had been Pontiac that used that name.

"Ranger" isn't an ethnic group, "Cherokee" is.
Your argument here seems to be that since car companies have a history of cultural insensitivity, it's okay for them to be culturally insensitive.

No my point is you have to be looking for something to complain about, if you have a problem with a a company that named their vehicles after anything that could be associated with the western US 40 years ago, I would not be surprised if there are more people complaining that they only named if after one tribe and not other tribes.

It is not like it is the only car named after a native american tribe, Apache, Dakota, Winnebago, Pontiac...
or after ethnic groups, Touareg, Mongol...

[Sociobiology]

"It's culturally insensitive"=/="it's offensive"
The use of a First Nation name without their prior approval is culturally insensitive, this particular usage is not offensive.

You are probably the first person I've ever heard define "insensitive" and "offensive" separately - and insist so strongly that there is a difference. Please explain - it's quite confusing.

bobs wife just died,
"Hey Bob we're going to couples retreat wanna come? oh right..." would be insensitive
"Jeez Bob get over it, she was a bitch anyway" would be offensive
basically it is about whether it was on purpose.

[Algonquin Ascendancy]

"Ranger" isn't an ethnic group, "Cherokee" is.
Your argument here seems to be that since car companies have a history of cultural insensitivity, it's okay for them to be culturally insensitive.

No my point is you have to be looking for something to complain about, if you have a problem with a a company that named their vehicles after anything that could be associated with the western US 40 years ago, I would not be surprised if there are more people complaining that they only named if after one tribe and not other tribes.

It is not like it is the only car named after a native american tribe, Apache, Dakota, Winnebago, Pontiac...
or after ethnic groups, Touareg, Mongol...

And all of those are examples of cultural insensitivity. Using the name of an ethnic/cultural group without concern for their feelings on the usage is the definition of cultural insensitivity. So, it's not a matter of looking for something tl complain about, it's a matter of knowing what the words mean.

[Sociobiology]

Going by the idea of consulting, companies would sit around trying to find the most boring and bland names just to ensure no one was offended. You can't please everyone, and using a historic nameplate makes sense, except to enthusiasts of the original not happy with the type of vehicle this is.

Why? Because asking people's permission to use their name is that difficult?
As is stated in your OP, the Cherokee aren't offended by the use of their name, so what would it have cost Jeep if they had just written a letter to tribal leaders saying "We would like to use your name for one of our vehicles, is that okay with you?"

well 40 years ago that would have been kinda strange, today yes a letter at least would have been nice, Although they do say the chose the Cherokee because they wear the toughest most resilient tribe.

[Algonquin Ascendancy]

Why? Because asking people's permission to use their name is that difficult?
As is stated in your OP, the Cherokee aren't offended by the use of their name, so what would it have cost Jeep if they had just written a letter to tribal leaders saying "We would like to use your name for one of our vehicles, is that okay with you?"

well 40 years ago that would have been kinda strange, today yes a letter at least would have been nice, Although they do say the chose the Cherokee because they wear the toughest most resilient tribe.

Which just furthers my point that "culturally insensitive"=/="offensive"...