Unilateral declaration of Palestinian statehood?

[Teseract Corporation]

Actually, this might be a clever solution. The Israeli opposition might suggest that they would be willing to recognize a Palestinian state, and then negotiate the exact borders. This could (or could not) swing an election, putting the moderates back in power, resulting in a return to negotations.

No, that would actually kill the moderates. A recent major block in Israel is the Russian Jewish population who understand from the Soviet Union that the state must be iron willed and unflinching, which is part of why things have gotten more fucked as of late. At any given time, roughly one third of the Israeli population can be considered 'recent immigrants' which can play hell with politics.

[Angleter]

It'd be nice if Palestinians would hold up their end of the peace process by not supporting violent anti-Israeli elements.

I wonder who badmouthed the French Resistance.

My point being, what are they going to do? They have no political or military recourse against a US-backed Israel. They can sit around and take it peacefully or they can sit around and take it violently. Either way, they won't change anything as long as people keep blaming PALESTINE and ignoring all of the racist, xenophobic shit Israel is all about.

I don't remember the French Resistance calling for Germany to be wiped off the face of the Earth. MLK took it peacefully, and Israel is a democratic and free nation just like the US. Yasser Arafat was a corrupt fool who screwed up Palestine's best chance yet and siphoned off large amounts of money for his own use, and Abbas hasn't exactly been brilliant in stopping the attacks on settlers in the West Bank (and handled Hamas all wrong).

They could change things if they properly acted to stop terrorism and quell Hamas, started actually helping the people, sat down at a table with Israel, and (if Israel says no) begin a peaceful, popular movement to bring to attention Israel's unwillingness to co-operate. They'd need to get the other Arab nations, at whose door much of the Palestinian Arabs' plight lies, to recognise Israel and accept them as a sovereign nation in order to reassure Israel that there's no threat to their independence- ceding Golan would be a good gesture.

[Rumalsa]

60% of Jordanians claim they are Palestinian. Palestinian was just a term for those in the region; Jewish Palestinians and Muslim Palestinians. The Muslims have just adopted the title to make it seem that it's their land.

Islamists will never stop being violent. Islamists are great at using our democratic values, our empathy and our media to propagandize and get what they want.

Israel has offered Yasser Arafat and the Palestinians the 1967 borders before; but they refused. It wasn't until the Palestinians wanted it that it's okay. It's because they want to go down in history as taking down a "colonial" ruler and gaining on their terms. It's a respect issue that Arabic leaders have.

They try to make it seem that all Jewish people in the region were immigrants. They use the peace activists and the liberals as pawns to gain what they want.

I am a liberal and a socialist but I see through the propaganda that the Islamists have shown.

Islamists demand respect when they should earn it. It's all a part of pushing the non-believers into the sea.

Ahmadinejad supports them and believes himself that he is the appointed one that is trying to bring the Mahdi (Messiah) into the world. He believes that this can't happen until all Jews are dead. It's all a plan to eradicate Israel, not live by it.

Hamas and Hezbollah don't even hide it.

[Xsyne]

meh. Can I declare my bedroom a sovereign nation?

Does the United States government take the official position that your bedroom is not actually part of the United States?

[The_pantless_hero]

They could change things if they properly acted to stop terrorism and quell Hamas,

Every person who makes an asinine statement like this is suffering from the delusion that Palestine pulls the strings. If Palestine pulled the strings, there would be a Palestinian state. There isn't, so guess what that means? Nothing Palestine does means jack shit. Palestine is NOT running the show, Israel and the US are. Palestine could magically turn all its terrorists into bunny rabbits and they STILL wouldn't get their own state. Why? Because ISRAEL controls what happens NOT Palestine. Palestinians can get their own state and stop living under a tyrannical, racist police state when Israel decides to make it happen.

[Dododecapod]

They could change things if they properly acted to stop terrorism and quell Hamas,

Every person who makes an asinine statement like this is suffering from the delusion that Palestine pulls the strings. If Palestine pulled the strings, there would be a Palestinian state. There isn't, so guess what that means? Nothing Palestine does means jack shit. Palestine is NOT running the show, Israel and the US are. Palestine could magically turn all its terrorists into bunny rabbits and they STILL wouldn't get their own state. Why? Because ISRAEL controls what happens NOT Palestine. Palestinians can get their own state and stop living under a tyrannical, racist police state when Israel decides to make it happen.

I would make it a slightly different way: when the Palestinians make it worth Israel's trouble to allow it to occur. Ultimately, they have the power to do this; frankly, I believe they will go extinct with their worthless pride intact.

[The_pantless_hero]

They could change things if they properly acted to stop terrorism and quell Hamas,

Every person who makes an asinine statement like this is suffering from the delusion that Palestine pulls the strings. If Palestine pulled the strings, there would be a Palestinian state. There isn't, so guess what that means? Nothing Palestine does means jack shit. Palestine is NOT running the show, Israel and the US are. Palestine could magically turn all its terrorists into bunny rabbits and they STILL wouldn't get their own state. Why? Because ISRAEL controls what happens NOT Palestine. Palestinians can get their own state and stop living under a tyrannical, racist police state when Israel decides to make it happen.

I would make it a slightly different way: when the Palestinians make it worth Israel's trouble to allow it to occur. Ultimately, they have the power to do this; frankly, I believe they will go extinct with their worthless pride intact.

You suffer from both the original delusion and the delusion that Israel is a wholly reasonable and logical society that wants the Palestinians to be a sovereign nation, or even Palestinians to be there at all.

[Angleter]

60% of Jordanians claim they are Palestinian. Palestinian was just a term for those in the region; Jewish Palestinians and Muslim Palestinians. The Muslims have just adopted the title to make it seem that it's their land.

Islamists will never stop being violent. Islamists are great at using our democratic values, our empathy and our media to propagandize and get what they want.

Israel has offered Yasser Arafat and the Palestinians the 1967 borders before; but they refused. It wasn't until the Palestinians wanted it that it's okay. It's because they want to go down in history as taking down a "colonial" ruler and gaining on their terms. It's a respect issue that Arabic leaders have.

They try to make it seem that all Jewish people in the region were immigrants. They use the peace activists and the liberals as pawns to gain what they want.

I am a liberal and a socialist but I see through the propaganda that the Islamists have shown.

Islamists demand respect when they should earn it. It's all a part of pushing the non-believers into the sea.

Ahmadinejad supports them and believes himself that he is the appointed one that is trying to bring the Mahdi (Messiah) into the world. He believes that this can't happen until all Jews are dead. It's all a plan to eradicate Israel, not live by it.

Hamas and Hezbollah don't even hide it.

Damn straight. I think that, as a final peace treaty in the Levant:

Golan and East Jerusalem are ceded to Israel;
The West Bank and Gaza join Jordan (which may wish to rename itself 'Palestine');
A small strip of land is ceded from Israel to Jordan to give contiguity to both nations (a kind of 'four corners' thing).
Everyone agrees not to attack each other, and if they do expect a large UN military force and economic blockade coming their way.

[Dododecapod]

Smileys do not an argument make.

[The_pantless_hero]

Smileys do not an argument make.

You suffer from both the originally stated delusion and the twin delusion that Israel is wholly a rational and reasonable society that wants the Palestinians to have their own nation or even be there at all.

[Angleter]

They could change things if they properly acted to stop terrorism and quell Hamas,

Every person who makes an asinine statement like this is suffering from the delusion that Palestine pulls the strings. If Palestine pulled the strings, there would be a Palestinian state. There isn't, so guess what that means? Nothing Palestine does means jack shit. Palestine is NOT running the show, Israel and the US are. Palestine could magically turn all its terrorists into bunny rabbits and they STILL wouldn't get their own state. Why? Because ISRAEL controls what happens NOT Palestine. Palestinians can get their own state and stop living under a tyrannical, racist police state when Israel decides to make it happen.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/new-palestinian-police-force-makes-tense-debut-in-west-bank-399020.html

They have their own police force, and they aren't exactly eager to co-operate with the Israelis to track down the terrorists and quell Hamas- indeed, when Hamas started firing rockets from Gaza (which they have decided to hold hostage) and the Israelis responded with gusto, I could easily be mistaken into thinking that they actually leaned towards Hamas- oh, hang on, THEY DID!

Now how exactly is that attitude going to instil in Israel a sense of confidence in the PNA's friendliness and lack of wish to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth with the aid of the usual merry band of Arab brothers?

[Dododecapod]

Smileys do not an argument make.

You suffer from both the originally stated delusion and the twin delusion that Israel is wholly a rational and reasonable society that wants the Palestinians to have their own nation or even be there at all.

No, I don't.

I believe that Israel, like ANY nation, runs primarily on more-or-less Elightened Self Interest.

Right now, they're getting Palestine handed to them on a plate. Palestinian forces keep fighting and dying, and dying, and dying, while Israel gobbles up land one scrap and one settlement at a time. They don't honestly give a crap about the Palestinians one way or the other.

It's up to the Palestinians to change the equation. If their ownership of Gaza or the West Bank has VALUE to Israel, watch how fast a Palestinian state comes into existence. But to do that, they'll have to swallow their pride and make themselves useful to Israel. And I don't believe they have the cultural strength to do that.

[Angleter]

Smileys do not an argument make.

You suffer from both the originally stated delusion and the twin delusion that Israel is wholly a rational and reasonable society that wants the Palestinians to have their own nation or even be there at all.

I don't think the Israelis give two shits whether the Palestinian Arabs (Israelis are Palestinians too) have their own state, so long as they don't start invading Israel. The PNA/PLO's track record (alongside the rest of Arabia) hasn't been that inclined toward letting Israel get on with its own affairs.

[Hillpark]

meh. Can I declare my bedroom a sovereign nation?

I already did that The Bedroom Republic, Im just waiting to be accepted in to the EU & UN .

[The_pantless_hero]

They could change things if they properly acted to stop terrorism and quell Hamas,

Every person who makes an asinine statement like this is suffering from the delusion that Palestine pulls the strings. If Palestine pulled the strings, there would be a Palestinian state. There isn't, so guess what that means? Nothing Palestine does means jack shit. Palestine is NOT running the show, Israel and the US are. Palestine could magically turn all its terrorists into bunny rabbits and they STILL wouldn't get their own state. Why? Because ISRAEL controls what happens NOT Palestine. Palestinians can get their own state and stop living under a tyrannical, racist police state when Israel decides to make it happen.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/new-palestinian-police-force-makes-tense-debut-in-west-bank-399020.html

They have their own police force, and they aren't exactly eager to co-operate with the Israelis to track down the terrorists and quell Hamas- indeed, when Hamas started firing rockets from Gaza (which they have decided to hold hostage) and the Israelis responded with gusto, I could easily be mistaken into thinking that they actually leaned towards Hamas- oh, hang on, THEY DID!

Now how exactly is that attitude going to instil in Israel a sense of confidence in the PNA's friendliness and lack of wish to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth with the aid of the usual merry band of Arab brothers?

Not only did you apparently miss the point of what I wrote, but I'm not convinced you read it.

[Czardas]

Smileys do not an argument make.

You suffer from both the originally stated delusion and the twin delusion that Israel is wholly a rational and reasonable society that wants the Palestinians to have their own nation or even be there at all.

That depends.

Most Israelis that I've met and talked to are in support of a Palestinian state. They think a two-state solution is acceptable. (Most would argue that the new state would have to make it its duty to eliminate terrorism, though.) Some even think the State of Israel should be abolished and replaced with a secular liberal democracy encompassing all of the British Mandate territory (the one-state solution). A few undoubtedly think all Palestinians are violent, Jew-hating maniacs who want nothing more than to see Israel burn, but they're a minority. I'm not sure which one counts as being "Israel".

[Angleter]

They could change things if they properly acted to stop terrorism and quell Hamas,

Every person who makes an asinine statement like this is suffering from the delusion that Palestine pulls the strings. If Palestine pulled the strings, there would be a Palestinian state. There isn't, so guess what that means? Nothing Palestine does means jack shit. Palestine is NOT running the show, Israel and the US are. Palestine could magically turn all its terrorists into bunny rabbits and they STILL wouldn't get their own state. Why? Because ISRAEL controls what happens NOT Palestine. Palestinians can get their own state and stop living under a tyrannical, racist police state when Israel decides to make it happen.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/new-palestinian-police-force-makes-tense-debut-in-west-bank-399020.html

They have their own police force, and they aren't exactly eager to co-operate with the Israelis to track down the terrorists and quell Hamas- indeed, when Hamas started firing rockets from Gaza (which they have decided to hold hostage) and the Israelis responded with gusto, I could easily be mistaken into thinking that they actually leaned towards Hamas- oh, hang on, THEY DID!

Now how exactly is that attitude going to instil in Israel a sense of confidence in the PNA's friendliness and lack of wish to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth with the aid of the usual merry band of Arab brothers?

Not only did you apparently miss the point of what I wrote, but I'm not convinced you read it.

You seem to be missing my point. I am accepting that Israel pulls the strings, but I am also saying that the PNA has the power to do the right thing with Hamas et al. and can persuade Israel to allow the creation of a Palestinian state, safe in the knowledge that they won't either fund Arab insurgencies in Israel or just flat-out attack Israel, which has always been their main concern.

[Nodinia]

Abbas hasn't exactly been brilliant in stopping the attacks on settlers in the West Bank .

Actually he has, and thus betrayed his own people in the process.

[The Romulan Republic]

Won't happen with Security Council support. Even a liberal like Obama who doesn't build his foreign policy around religious beliefs such as Biblical End Times prophecies will never stand up to Israel to that degree.

I just hope it doesn't touch off a region-wide war if the Palistinians go ahead and do this.

[SD_Film Artists]

In reality, only the first will work. The second will never work because Israel controls everything that goes in and out of Palestine, including media. The thousands of Palestinian women and children that died at the gates of Israel and illegal settlements? Terrorist recruits strapped with bombs and guns who were sadly executed trying to storm and massacre Jews in Israel and Israeli settlements.

As long as Israel can wag the US and scream "Holocaust!" whenever challenged, there will never be either peace nor a Palestinian state.

If the evil Zionist Media doesn't show it, Pallywood will.

[The_pantless_hero]

Smileys do not an argument make.

You suffer from both the originally stated delusion and the twin delusion that Israel is wholly a rational and reasonable society that wants the Palestinians to have their own nation or even be there at all.

That depends.

Most Israelis that I've met and talked to are in support of a Palestinian state. They think a two-state solution is acceptable.

Reasonable people rarely make up a society. The racist zionists in the settlements hold plenty of sway in the government.

[Czardas]

Smileys do not an argument make.

You suffer from both the originally stated delusion and the twin delusion that Israel is wholly a rational and reasonable society that wants the Palestinians to have their own nation or even be there at all.

That depends.

Most Israelis that I've met and talked to are in support of a Palestinian state. They think a two-state solution is acceptable.

Reasonable people rarely make up a society. The racist zionists in the settlements hold plenty of sway in the government.

The Israeli society is highly fractured. More so than most, in fact. The government tends to fall on the right-wing extremist side of things, but it's hardly supported by even a slim majority of the population.

[The_pantless_hero]

They could change things if they properly acted to stop terrorism and quell Hamas,

Every person who makes an asinine statement like this is suffering from the delusion that Palestine pulls the strings. If Palestine pulled the strings, there would be a Palestinian state. There isn't, so guess what that means? Nothing Palestine does means jack shit. Palestine is NOT running the show, Israel and the US are. Palestine could magically turn all its terrorists into bunny rabbits and they STILL wouldn't get their own state. Why? Because ISRAEL controls what happens NOT Palestine. Palestinians can get their own state and stop living under a tyrannical, racist police state when Israel decides to make it happen.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/new-palestinian-police-force-makes-tense-debut-in-west-bank-399020.html

They have their own police force, and they aren't exactly eager to co-operate with the Israelis to track down the terrorists and quell Hamas- indeed, when Hamas started firing rockets from Gaza (which they have decided to hold hostage) and the Israelis responded with gusto, I could easily be mistaken into thinking that they actually leaned towards Hamas- oh, hang on, THEY DID!

Now how exactly is that attitude going to instil in Israel a sense of confidence in the PNA's friendliness and lack of wish to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth with the aid of the usual merry band of Arab brothers?

Not only did you apparently miss the point of what I wrote, but I'm not convinced you read it.

You seem to be missing my point. I am accepting that Israel pulls the strings, but I am also saying that the PNA has the power to do the right thing with Hamas et al. and can persuade Israel to allow the creation of a Palestinian state, safe in the knowledge that they won't either fund Arab insurgencies in Israel or just flat-out attack Israel, which has always been their main concern.

You are arguing that if Hamas/PA completely hammers down the terrorist attacks, Israel will respect them enough to allow them either their own state or serious autonomy with stopping the settler invasion. You are wrong. That is the reason there is Hamas in charge of Gaza. The previous group decided to capitulate and hope for peace. Israel shot them down. Since there is no political or real military discourse, the only way to resist oppression is armed terrorist resistance. Am I denying that Hamas is a terrorist organization or the Palestinian governments are happy, Democratic societies having their sunshine and happiness stolen by Israel? No. But Palestine doesn't control the strings. The terrorist groups will lose their popular support if Israel stops being a giant asshole towards the Palestinians. Palestine can't make the concessions. THERE ARE NO CONCESSIONS TO MAKE. Israel has to make concessions and hope those concessions stop the popular support of the major terrorist organizations.

[The_pantless_hero]

Smileys do not an argument make.

You suffer from both the originally stated delusion and the twin delusion that Israel is wholly a rational and reasonable society that wants the Palestinians to have their own nation or even be there at all.

That depends.

Most Israelis that I've met and talked to are in support of a Palestinian state. They think a two-state solution is acceptable.

Reasonable people rarely make up a society. The racist zionists in the settlements hold plenty of sway in the government.

The Israeli society is highly fractured. More so than most, in fact. The government tends to fall on the right-wing extremist side of things, but it's hardly supported by even a slim majority of the population.

Then there is something inherently wrong with Israel.

[Kirav]

Palestine should go for it. One of the chief reasons (other than U.S. backing) that Israel is allowed to keeps expaning into Palestinian territory is that Palestine lacks legal recognition. Will it change much? Probably not, but it's worth it as a step towards attaning some measure of sovereignty.