Unilateral declaration of Palestinian statehood?

[Lunatic Goofballs]

I can't speak for anybody else, but I'll support an Independence movement for Palestine if they actually fight on their land instead of sending bombs strapped to kids and rockets into Israel. They need tochange their tactics and their rhetoric. They need to make the fight about Palestine not about Israel. That I'd support.

I know your an American so its in your nature to be stupid and violent but god damn do you honestly think its that simple?

go on tell me how would your independence movement possibly hope to fight Israel on conventional terms, perhaps the Israelis are like the aliens in signs and if you spray water on them they melt...presumably the Israeli armour is made of cardboard

then you can tell me how if its really that easy a peaceful solution can't be achieved and how the Palestinians can stop their shitty new country from being a hot-bed of terrorist activity towards Israel like it already is

"I cannot teach you violence, as I do not myself believe in it. I can only teach you not to bow your heads before any one even at the cost of your life." -Gandhi

[The_pantless_hero]

I can't speak for anybody else, but I'll support an Independence movement for Palestine if they actually fight on their land instead of sending bombs strapped to kids and rockets into Israel. They need tochange their tactics and their rhetoric. They need to make the fight about Palestine not about Israel. That I'd support.

Who the fuck are they going to fight on their land? The foreigners that show up to interview them? The Palestinian resistance is getting increasingly terroristic and hardlined. Why? Because once the previous less hardline group capitulates and stops being massive terrorist dicks... Israel still refuses to stop treating Palestinians like vermin. You know who is furthering the issue between Israel and Palestine? The people running the god damn show, not the Palestinians. It's like blaming the crowd at a circus because the ringmaster puts on a shitty show. "You guys didn't laugh enough, get the fuck out."

You want to blame the Palestinians for this mess? Ok. Get Israel to pull back its settlements and just generally stop being xenophobic, racist assholes with superior firepower. Then if the Palestinians keep blowing shit up, THEN you can chastise the Palestinians.

[The Archregimancy]

I can't speak for anybody else, but I'll support an Independence movement for Palestine if they actually fight on their land instead of sending bombs strapped to kids and rockets into Israel. They need tochange their tactics and their rhetoric. They need to make the fight about Palestine not about Israel. That I'd support.

A cogent point; you seem to essentially be arguing that if pro-independence action - whether violent or non-violent - were to be restricted to Palestinian territory defined by the 1967 borders, you would find this supportable.

But two moral grey areas....

1) What about violent action (however defined) against purely and indisputably military targets within Israel's internationally recognised pre-1967 borders? Would this be justified?

2) What about violent action (however defined) against non-military targets within a putative Palestine's pre-1967 borders? In other words, are attacks on settlements - internationally recognised as illegal outside of Israel itself - justified should attacks on non-military targets outside the West Bank and Gaza cease entirely?


Oh, and Call to Power.... the word you're looking for is 'Intifada'.

[H N Fiddlebottoms VIII]

If they actually tried fighting a stand up fight, they'd just get mowed down. How many tanks and aircraft does the Palestinian authority have?
Whining to the UN and blowing up buses are the only tactics they can put into any kind of use, as useless, harmful and infuriating as they are.

Like I said, that depends who backs em.

Short of finding incriminating pictures of Obama and the family dog or other blackmail worthy materials, or convincing China, India or Russia to get involved in a good old-fashioned proxy war, I can't see how they'll have the support they need.

[Lunatic Goofballs]

I can't speak for anybody else, but I'll support an Independence movement for Palestine if they actually fight on their land instead of sending bombs strapped to kids and rockets into Israel. They need tochange their tactics and their rhetoric. They need to make the fight about Palestine not about Israel. That I'd support.

Who the fuck are they going to fight on their land? The foreigners that show up to interview them? The Palestinian resistance is getting increasingly terroristic and hardlined. Why? Because once the previous less hardline group capitulates and stops being massive terrorist dicks... Israel still refuses to stop treating Palestinians like vermin. You know who is furthering the issue between Israel and Palestine? The people running the god damn show, not the Palestinians. It's like blaming the crowd at a circus because the ringmaster puts on a shitty show. "You guys didn't laugh enough, get the fuck out."

You want to blame the Palestinians for this mess? Ok. Get Israel to pull back its settlements and just generally stop being xenophobic, racist assholes with superior firepower. Then if the Palestinians keep blowing shit up, THEN you can chastise the Palestinians.

Oh, don't get me started on all Israel's faults. I had though I'd made my position on them clear way before now that both sides are controlled and run by violent douchebags using fear as a tool to retain power. Maybe I was wrong. I don't hold Israel in high regard. I was, just for a change of pace, explaining why I don't hold the Palestinians in high regard either.

[The_pantless_hero]

I can't speak for anybody else, but I'll support an Independence movement for Palestine if they actually fight on their land instead of sending bombs strapped to kids and rockets into Israel. They need tochange their tactics and their rhetoric. They need to make the fight about Palestine not about Israel. That I'd support.

I know your an American so its in your nature to be stupid and violent but god damn do you honestly think its that simple?

go on tell me how would your independence movement possibly hope to fight Israel on conventional terms, perhaps the Israelis are like the aliens in signs and if you spray water on them they melt...presumably the Israeli armour is made of cardboard

then you can tell me how if its really that easy a peaceful solution can't be achieved and how the Palestinians can stop their shitty new country from being a hot-bed of terrorist activity towards Israel like it already is

"I cannot teach you violence, as I do not myself believe in it. I can only teach you not to bow your heads before any one even at the cost of your life." -Gandhi

There are exactly two ways to end the Palestinian/Israel clusterfuck.

• US pulls back all political, monetary, and military support for Israel. Not just the racist organizations it supports solely because they are Israeli, I mean the whole damn state of Israel. Put all of that support in Turkey or something and maybe Israel will eventually get a clue.
• Every man woman and child in Palestine tries to walk into Israel/Israeli settlements. Hopefully the thousands of blatant deaths will make the world pay attention and stop letting Israel get away with whatever it wants because of the Holocaust

In reality, only the first will work. The second will never work because Israel controls everything that goes in and out of Palestine, including media. The thousands of Palestinian women and children that died at the gates of Israel and illegal settlements? Terrorist recruits strapped with bombs and guns who were sadly executed trying to storm and massacre Jews in Israel and Israeli settlements.

As long as Israel can wag the US and scream "Holocaust!" whenever challenged, there will never be either peace nor a Palestinian state.

[Risottia]

If they do get independence

Which they won't.

wouldn't it be illegal for the Zionist Israeli state to build on Palestinian land?

It already is.

To sum it up: an unilateral declaration by a group who says "Hey I'm a country" but is under the control of another country, whose military power is fantasfucktically greater, is obviously useless.

And I'm being obivious.

[Lunatic Goofballs]

I can't speak for anybody else, but I'll support an Independence movement for Palestine if they actually fight on their land instead of sending bombs strapped to kids and rockets into Israel. They need tochange their tactics and their rhetoric. They need to make the fight about Palestine not about Israel. That I'd support.

A cogent point; you seem to essentially be arguing that if pro-independence action - whether violent or non-violent - were to be restricted to Palestinian territory defined by the 1967 borders, you would find this supportable.

But two moral grey areas....

1) What about violent action (however defined) against purely and indisputably military targets within Israel's internationally recognised pre-1967 borders? Would this be justified?

2) What about violent action (however defined) against non-military targets within a putative Palestine's pre-1967 borders? In other words, are attacks on settlements - internationally recognised as illegal outside of Israel itself - justified should attacks on non-military targets outside the West Bank and Gaza cease entirely?


Oh, and Call to Power.... the word you're looking for is 'Intifada'.

Depends who you ask. Me, I lean toward peaceful demonstration and civil disobedience. Not only does that work, but it helps to set a wonderful contrast against the violence of the opposition. But being an American, I recognize the power and legacy of physically fighting for your freedom.

[The Archregimancy]

To sum it up: an unilateral declaration by a group who says "Hey I'm a country" but is under the control of another country, whose military power is fantasfucktically greater, is obviously useless.

And I'm being obivious.

Except someone seems to have forgotten to tell the East Timorese that....

I freely concede that directly comparing East Timor and Palestine would be more than slightly disingenuous, but the point remains that the above circumstances can be overcome under some circumstances. I do, however, agree with you that those circumstances don't exist in Palestine.

And there's still the problem of that US Security Council veto - unless the goal is to embarrass the Obama administration by forcing the veto.

[Almagarde]

Just remember - until the Jewish population who migrated in from Europe resorted to Terrorist Bombings against the British Government of Palestine it was in the Cue for being a Commonwealth Nation...No Jewish State. No Muslim State. Just Commonwealth Government.

So if anyone is to blame...it is the British.

[The_pantless_hero]

I can't speak for anybody else, but I'll support an Independence movement for Palestine if they actually fight on their land instead of sending bombs strapped to kids and rockets into Israel. They need tochange their tactics and their rhetoric. They need to make the fight about Palestine not about Israel. That I'd support.

A cogent point; you seem to essentially be arguing that if pro-independence action - whether violent or non-violent - were to be restricted to Palestinian territory defined by the 1967 borders, you would find this supportable.

But two moral grey areas....

1) What about violent action (however defined) against purely and indisputably military targets within Israel's internationally recognised pre-1967 borders? Would this be justified?

2) What about violent action (however defined) against non-military targets within a putative Palestine's pre-1967 borders? In other words, are attacks on settlements - internationally recognised as illegal outside of Israel itself - justified should attacks on non-military targets outside the West Bank and Gaza cease entirely?


Oh, and Call to Power.... the word you're looking for is 'Intifada'.

Depends who you ask. Me, I lean toward peaceful demonstration and civil disobedience. Not only does that work, but it helps to set a wonderful contrast against the violence of the opposition. But being an American, I recognize the power and legacy of physically fighting for your freedom.

As a pragmatist, I recognize Palestinians are likely to die en masse if they try peaceful resistance. Which just might get the world to take notice and stop giving the Israelis a pass.

[The_pantless_hero]

Just remember - until the Jewish population who migrated in from Europe resorted to Terrorist Bombings against the British Government of Palestine it was in the Cue for being a Commonwealth Nation...No Jewish State. No Muslim State. Just Commonwealth Government.

So if anyone is to blame...it is the British.

I am pretty sure it is legal to blame everything wrong with the Indian subcontinent on the British.

[Dododecapod]

I am pretty sure it is legal to blame everything wrong with the Indian subcontinent on the British.

Yes - though not accurate.

The problem with unilateral declarations is, you have to be able to back them up. As a North American example, the USA was able to back up it's unilateral declaration of independence. The CSA, on the other hand, was not.

If the Palestinians want a state, they MUST find a way to make it useful to the Israelis that they have one. At that point, the Israelis will help them do it. Right now, Israel is looking at the situation and saying "We can't trust these freaks to keep a cease-fire, or police their own people. How can we trust them to have a state, on our border?" You might reasonably question the attitude's accuracy, but that means nothing; as long as the Israelis hold that opinion, any Palestinian "state" will be stillborn.

No one is going to help the Palestinians. The Arabs won't try again; The US is allied to Israel; Europe only uses the situation to twit the US; Russia and China simply don't care. Palestine is at the dark, stinking sewer-end of global dynamics, and the only way they will get out from under is by swallowing their pride and turning to the ONE state that actually has a stake in the area - Israel.

[Melkor Unchained]

I can't speak for anybody else, but I'll support an Independence movement for Palestine if they actually fight on their land instead of sending bombs strapped to kids and rockets into Israel. They need tochange their tactics and their rhetoric. They need to make the fight about Palestine not about Israel. That I'd support.

I know your an American so its in your nature to be stupid and violent but god damn do you honestly think its that simple?

go on tell me how would your independence movement possibly hope to fight Israel on conventional terms, perhaps the Israelis are like the aliens in signs and if you spray water on them they melt...presumably the Israeli armour is made of cardboard

then you can tell me how if its really that easy a peaceful solution can't be achieved and how the Palestinians can stop their shitty new country from being a hot-bed of terrorist activity towards Israel like it already is

WARNED for trolling/flamebait. You should know better. Let's try to keep this one on an even keel, folks.. I know it's a touchy subject but there should be ways to discuss it without resorting to turns of phrase like this.

[The Black Forrest]

meh. Can I declare my bedroom a sovereign nation?

Yea we know why you want to do that you sick bastard.

[Greed and Death]

meh. Can I declare my bedroom a sovereign nation?

I tried, I got arrested for not paying property tax on it.

[Angleter]

This can't end well.

[Teseract Corporation]

If the Palestinians lack faith in US sponsored peace talks, it's because they know that they will fuck it up again. Remember back when Clinton was trying to do this? Remember how Arafat demanded all of Jerusalem? Remember how he sabotaged peace talks?

Israel may be far from blameless, but the Palestinians regularly shoot themselves in the foot. Palestinians were expelled from various Arab nations that took them in as refugees because they tried to abuse the generosity of the hosting government.

[The Orbital Death Ray]

It'd be nice if Palestinians would hold up their end of the peace process by not supporting violent anti-Israeli elements.

When you have school-aged children going to government-sponsored activities to learn how to kill, and both suicide martyrdom and anti-Semitism is inoculated into the kids officially at an early age, something is afoot.

[The_pantless_hero]

It'd be nice if Palestinians would hold up their end of the peace process by not supporting violent anti-Israeli elements.

I wonder who badmouthed the French Resistance.

My point being, what are they going to do? They have no political or military recourse against a US-backed Israel. They can sit around and take it peacefully or they can sit around and take it violently. Either way, they won't change anything as long as people keep blaming PALESTINE and ignoring all of the racist, xenophobic shit Israel is all about.

[The Orbital Death Ray]

I had no idea that Nazi-Occupied France was under the same terms as the Oslo accords, Mr. Godwin.

Must be nice sitting in your Western living room, reading about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict from afar, assuming you can apply our values to their culture. You haven't seen the inside of the Palestinian mind. You haven't seen their schools, their children.

[Libertarian Governance]

A cogent point; you seem to essentially be arguing that if pro-independence action - whether violent or non-violent - were to be restricted to Palestinian territory defined by the 1967 borders, you would find this supportable.

But two moral grey areas....

1) What about violent action (however defined) against purely and indisputably military targets within Israel's internationally recognised pre-1967 borders? Would this be justified?

2) What about violent action (however defined) against non-military targets within a putative Palestine's pre-1967 borders? In other words, are attacks on settlements - internationally recognised as illegal outside of Israel itself - justified should attacks on non-military targets outside the West Bank and Gaza cease entirely?

Some of the Palestinian groups carry out the preponderance of their attacks now on purely military targets. The Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade for example has for years only hit Israeli military units. Violent action against the occupying army are justified anywhere they occur. As for attacking settlers, well the settlers are armed by the Israeli government and given cash and support to ethnically cleanse the region. They seem fair game to me too.

As for the bigger question of Independence the only way that would really work is first, if the Palestinian Authority solved its problem with Hamas and second with a united voice the PA and Hamas declared independence then asked for UN troops to protect the territory while promising to stand their own forces down. Though the US would try to stop it I believe public opinion and international pressure would force them to send troops to disengage Israels army from the area. To insure that the Americans, Europeans and Israelis didn't screw them doing the peace keeping operations they would also have to demand that half the peace keepers were from places like China, Russia, Pakistan, Iran and Venezuela.

[The_pantless_hero]

I had no idea that Nazi-Occupied France was under the same terms as the Oslo accords, Mr. Godwin.

Must be nice sitting in your Western living room, reading about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict from afar, assuming you can apply our values to their culture. You haven't seen the inside of the Palestinian mind. You haven't seen their schools, their children.

I'm sorry, what does that make you Israeli citizen? I'm sure there is an unbiased opinion.

[Mirkana]

Actually, this might be a clever solution. The Israeli opposition might suggest that they would be willing to recognize a Palestinian state, and then negotiate the exact borders. This could (or could not) swing an election, putting the moderates back in power, resulting in a return to negotations.

[The Archregimancy]

Must be nice sitting in your Western living room, reading about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict from afar, assuming you can apply our values to their culture. You haven't seen the inside of the Palestinian mind. You haven't seen their schools, their children.

Can I gently point out that this might be just the teensiest bit of a generalisation.

As it happens, I have a close friend and colleague who is Palestinian, is married (to a Norwegian), and has two children. I helped edit his archaeology PhD on the pre-pottery neolithic A period in Jordan. I would politely point out that, while but one individual, he exemplifies the fact that we should be just as careful about applying sweeping generalisations to Palestinians as we would be towards both Jews and Israelis.

While I'm sure that you're a paragon of anti-racism yourself, sweeping generalisations can open people up to accusations of racism, whether justified or not.