US Gun Control (Yes, again).

[Chernoslavia]

Because the ban on drugs and the past bans on alcohol totally stopped people from drinking, and reduced violent crime rates.

False equivalency. Evidence provided previously in this thread already showed gun control laws greatly reduced violent crime rate in many countries and essentially eliminated gun violence as a problem in several as well.

Those so-called ''developed'' countries have a significantly lower population than the US.

[Edlichbury]

Post hoc fallacy. Crime rates were incidentally decreasing for a number of reason that were explained in actual statistics, none of which dealt with guns. One such reason was the demographic shift in the time span as the population aged, which led to less crimes overall, heightened police details, greater emphasis on social programs to combat crime, and steadily climbing incarceration rates and lengths of incarceration. But nowhere did any criminologist suggest "more guns" led to the decline.

Neither did I. I did, however, state that more guns did NOT lead to more crime in the United States. This differs from the OP's data, which claims that more guns irrefutably leads to more violent crime; an arrogant and flawed conclusion that, as you said, ignores other societal factors.

I'll certainly agree with that. America's culture is largely responsible for a number of problems, which is why direct comparisons (such as murder to murder, theft to theft, an so on) generally show America trailing other countries. That being said, gun control still would help the situation.

[Uieurnthlaal]

False equivalency. Evidence provided previously in this thread already showed gun control laws greatly reduced violent crime rate in many countries and essentially eliminated gun violence as a problem in several as well.

Those so-called ''developed'' countries have a significantly lower population than the US.

So? What on earth does population have to do with it? Fine, then. Consider the EU. Since all the states in the EU have lower gun-ownership, and lower crime, it applies to the EU too, which is much larger than than the US.

[Edlichbury]

False equivalency. Evidence provided previously in this thread already showed gun control laws greatly reduced violent crime rate in many countries and essentially eliminated gun violence as a problem in several as well.

Those so-called ''developed'' countries have a significantly lower population than the US.

Even per capita rates show the US leading by a disproportionate amount and shows that overall countries with high per capita gun violence rates tend to be close to the United States or the United States, presenting a case for a spillover effect heightened by the evidence that many guns obtained oversees in contradiction with their laws stem from legal purchases within the United States.

[Chernoslavia]

What kind of gun control? Background checks? Banning of Guns? Banning of Assault Rifles?

Categorical bans, licensing requirements, and overall strict control of the supply. The details are somewhere in this thread as I'm sure someone besides me brought up various countries. As an aside, I personally advocate for a Japanese-styled method of gun control. So if you want a specific debate, that can be the starting point.

These are where you'll fail at fulfiling your proposal. Our culture isnt the same as Japan's culture of civil obediance. We have multiple cultures originating from different parts of the world. American culture alone, still is not the same as Japan.

[Edlichbury]

Categorical bans, licensing requirements, and overall strict control of the supply. The details are somewhere in this thread as I'm sure someone besides me brought up various countries. As an aside, I personally advocate for a Japanese-styled method of gun control. So if you want a specific debate, that can be the starting point.

These are where you'll fail at fulfiling your proposal. Our culture isnt the same as Japan's culture of civil obediance. We have multiple cultures originating from different parts of the world. American culture alone, still is not the same as Japan.

That would be an excellent argument if we didn't see similar cultures have no issues with enacting gun control, such as Australia. Furthermore, Japanese culture in a modern sense is derived from heavy American influences after WWII and shows many of the same ideals.

[Norjagen]

Neither did I. I did, however, state that more guns did NOT lead to more crime in the United States. This differs from the OP's data, which claims that more guns irrefutably leads to more violent crime; an arrogant and flawed conclusion that, as you said, ignores other societal factors.

I'll certainly agree with that. America's culture is largely responsible for a number of problems, which is why direct comparisons (such as murder to murder, theft to theft, an so on) generally show America trailing other countries. That being said, gun control still would help the situation.

How would gun control help the situation? At best, it seems to have little to no effect at present. Crime rates across the board are falling at a steady rate, even (as I mentioned) as various gun restrictions are being repealed. This is particularly true regarding concealed carry. Even Illinois, the last anti-carry holdout, is going to have a concealed carry provision in the near future. If the repeal of these laws is having a negative effect on society, it's so miniscule as to be lost within the noise, so to speak.

What's more, in the time it takes to round up all illegal guns, (which could take a very long time,) the law-abiding citizens of the country would be defenseless against criminals who, by their very definition, don't obey the law.

[Asuiop]

What kind of gun control? Background checks? Banning of Guns? Banning of Assault Rifles?

Categorical bans, licensing requirements, and overall strict control of the supply. The details are somewhere in this thread as I'm sure someone besides me brought up various countries. As an aside, I personally advocate for a Japanese-styled method of gun control. So if you want a specific debate, that can be the starting point.

The problem with such a strict gun-control, is it most likely wouldn't work in the US. Guns have been embedded into our culture for decades and to take away our guns would end up being alot like prohibition, only worse. For one thing, legislation like that would never pass, mostly thanks to the existance of the American Deep south and Texas. If it did pass, it wouldn't work. Criminals will get their hands on a gun illegally if they have to. As shown by the situation on the border of Mexico, its not overly hard to smuggle things in. People could smuggle in guns easily to the criminals.

[Chernoslavia]

Those so-called ''developed'' countries have a significantly lower population than the US.

Even per capita rates show the US leading by a disproportionate amount and shows that overall countries with high per capita gun violence rates tend to be close to the United States or the United States, presenting a case for a spillover effect heightened by the evidence that many guns obtained oversees in contradiction with their laws stem from legal purchases within the United States.

Okay, if this is about Mexico and the federal government asking gun stores to sell the guns to mexican straw purchasers, then you are wrong. The majority of guns being smuggled in Mexico come from Nicaragua from former Sandinista weapon stocks. If you look at pictures of the kind of weapons captured from cartels, you'll see fully-automatic rifles, grenades, rocket launchers, and C4 explosives.

[Uieurnthlaal]

Well, you wouldn't know when the police were coming. If you were found with a gun, however, you would face legal action, like fines such as $5000, more if you are found with guns worth more than that. About a previous squad collecting your guns, this isn't 1752. The police are more organized than that. Lawbreaking is not as easy as it may seem in your conservative fantasy.

Conservative fantasy?

THIS....IS.....ALASKA!

*leonidus kick*

1. On a serious note...if police are that organized to that particular point, then why arent the streets being clean out from illegal narcotics? Yeah, exactly.

2. Please stop saying legal action because it is obviously not legal action until you can get congress to first legally repeal the 2nd Amendment which isnt practically possible. You'd accuse me of lawbreaking when your actions themselves are illegal.

3. Your starting to sound like the sort of tyrant we're talking about. I hope you realize your further justifying our actions.

4. You'd be surprised of all the hiding spots i've found.

1. Being narcotics are not being sold in obvious places. Houses, on the other hand, don't move.
2. That depends entirely upon the interpretation of the 2nd amendment. Currently it's interpreted as meaning individual rights, but a future SCOTUS could easily change that, pointing to the oft-ignored lines, "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state". And no, those actions would be unconstitutional, but until struck down, they would be legal.
3.The US gov is far more intrusive about the cyberworld, so compared to that, going into a house with a warrant and collecting the weapons with compensation seems like nothing at all.
4. Sure. Hide your guns. You can't hide them forever or they'll just rust. Anyway, your just breaking the system for your own benefit and to everyone else's detriment, because of the possibility that the guns get in the wrong hands. Have you ever heard of the tragedy of the commons? This is similar.

[Edlichbury]

I'll certainly agree with that. America's culture is largely responsible for a number of problems, which is why direct comparisons (such as murder to murder, theft to theft, an so on) generally show America trailing other countries. That being said, gun control still would help the situation.

How would gun control help the situation? At best, it seems to have little to no effect at present. Crime rates across the board are falling at a steady rate, even (as I mentioned) as various gun restrictions are being repealed. This is particularly true regarding concealed carry. Even Illinois, the last anti-carry holdout, is going to have a concealed carry provision in the near future.

What's more, in the time it takes to round up all illegal guns, (which could take a very long time,) the law-abiding citizens of the country would be defenseless against criminals who, by their very definition, don't obey the law.

Statistics from various countries indicate that effective gun control works. That's not in any way a disputable fact. Australia literally eliminated mass shootings with gun control, Japan has successfully created a society that has fewer than ten deaths from gun violence annually on average and has yet to see those numbers climb above twenty. Gun control works when you actually do it. But if we continue with this "Gun control doesn't work!" myth, gun control in America will never have a chance to work.

[Edlichbury]

Even per capita rates show the US leading by a disproportionate amount and shows that overall countries with high per capita gun violence rates tend to be close to the United States or the United States, presenting a case for a spillover effect heightened by the evidence that many guns obtained oversees in contradiction with their laws stem from legal purchases within the United States.

Okay, if this is about Mexico and the federal government asking gun stores to sell the guns to mexican straw purchasers, then you are wrong. The majority of guns being smuggled in Mexico come from Nicaragua from former Sandinista weapon stocks. If you look at pictures of the kind of weapons captured from cartels, you'll see fully-automatic rifles, grenades, rocket launchers, and C4 explosives.

But I'm not. You can't just make up a new reality. Statistics from both American and Mexican governments found that the majority of weapons seized from cartels have origins in the United States or are strongly suspected to originate from the United States. And yes, they do have those weapons. And all of them are accessible from American markets.

[Norjagen]

2. That depends entirely upon the interpretation of the 2nd amendment. Currently it's interpreted as meaning individual rights, but a future SCOTUS could easily change that, pointing to the oft-ignored lines, "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state". And no, those actions would be unconstitutional, but until struck down, they would be legal.

Are you saying that gun owners should band together into militia groups?

[Chernoslavia]

These are where you'll fail at fulfiling your proposal. Our culture isnt the same as Japan's culture of civil obediance. We have multiple cultures originating from different parts of the world. American culture alone, still is not the same as Japan.

That would be an excellent argument if we didn't see similar cultures have no issues with enacting gun control, such as Australia. Furthermore, Japanese culture in a modern sense is derived from heavy American influences after WWII and shows many of the same ideals.

The thing is organized crime in Japan such as the Yakuza also believe in the culture of respect. And the Yakuza have illegal firearms, and most Yakuza members view the use of guns to kill an unarmed opponent as an act of cowardice and dishonor.

[Chernoslavia]

Okay, if this is about Mexico and the federal government asking gun stores to sell the guns to mexican straw purchasers, then you are wrong. The majority of guns being smuggled in Mexico come from Nicaragua from former Sandinista weapon stocks. If you look at pictures of the kind of weapons captured from cartels, you'll see fully-automatic rifles, grenades, rocket launchers, and C4 explosives.

But I'm not. You can't just make up a new reality. Statistics from both American and Mexican governments found that the majority of weapons seized from cartels have origins in the United States or are strongly suspected to originate from the United States. And yes, they do have those weapons. And all of them are accessible from American markets.

Your gonna need a source for that. Do you have any idea how to legally own a rocket launcher or a machine gun? It seems to me that you dont.

[Norjagen]

Okay, if this is about Mexico and the federal government asking gun stores to sell the guns to mexican straw purchasers, then you are wrong. The majority of guns being smuggled in Mexico come from Nicaragua from former Sandinista weapon stocks. If you look at pictures of the kind of weapons captured from cartels, you'll see fully-automatic rifles, grenades, rocket launchers, and C4 explosives.

But I'm not. You can't just make up a new reality. Statistics from both American and Mexican governments found that the majority of weapons seized from cartels have origins in the United States or are strongly suspected to originate from the United States. And yes, they do have those weapons. And all of them are accessible from American markets.

This is false, and has been debunked to death.

In March 2009, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton announced to reporters on a trip to Mexico: "Since we know that the vast majority, 90 percent of that weaponry (used by Mexican drug cartels), comes from our country, we are going to try to stop it from getting there in the first place."

Suddenly that 90 percent statistic was everywhere. It was like the statistic on women beaten by their husbands on Super Bowl Sunday.

CBS' Bob Schieffer asked Obama on "Face the Nation": "It's my understanding that 90 percent of the guns that they're getting down in Mexico are coming from the United States. We don't seem to be doing a very good job of cutting off the gun flow. Do you need any kind of legislative help on that front? Have you, for example, thought about asking Congress to reinstate the ban on assault weapons?"

At a Senate hearing, Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., said: "It is unacceptable to have 90 percent of the guns that are picked up in Mexico and used to shoot judges, police officers and mayors ... come from the United States."

And then, we found out the 90 percent figure was complete bunkum. It was a fabrication told by William Hoover, of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATF), and then spread like wildfire by Democrats and the media.

Mexican law enforcement authorities send only a fraction of the guns they recover from criminals back to the U.S. for tracing. Which guns do they send? The guns that have U.S. serial numbers on them. It would be like asking a library to produce all their Mark Twain books and then concluding that 90 percent of the books in that library are by Mark Twain.

Obama backed away from the preposterous 90 percent claim. His National Security Council spokesman explained that by "recovered," they meant "guns traceable to the United States." So, in other words, Democrats were frantically citing the amazing fact that almost all the guns traceable to the U.S. were ... traceable to the U.S.

[Occupied Deutschland]

How would gun control help the situation? At best, it seems to have little to no effect at present. Crime rates across the board are falling at a steady rate, even (as I mentioned) as various gun restrictions are being repealed. This is particularly true regarding concealed carry. Even Illinois, the last anti-carry holdout, is going to have a concealed carry provision in the near future.

What's more, in the time it takes to round up all illegal guns, (which could take a very long time,) the law-abiding citizens of the country would be defenseless against criminals who, by their very definition, don't obey the law.

Statistics from various countries indicate that effective gun control works. That's not in any way a disputable fact. Australia literally eliminated mass shootings with gun control, Japan has successfully created a society that has fewer than ten deaths from gun violence annually on average and has yet to see those numbers climb above twenty. Gun control works when you actually do it. But if we continue with this "Gun control doesn't work!" myth, gun control in America will never have a chance to work.

http://www.guncite.com/gun-control-kill ... tract.html
Most relevant bit:

Interestingly, no significant correlations with total suicide or homicide rates were found, leaving open the question of possible substitution effects.

[Edlichbury]

But I'm not. You can't just make up a new reality. Statistics from both American and Mexican governments found that the majority of weapons seized from cartels have origins in the United States or are strongly suspected to originate from the United States. And yes, they do have those weapons. And all of them are accessible from American markets.

This is false, and has been debunked to death.

In March 2009, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton announced to reporters on a trip to Mexico: "Since we know that the vast majority, 90 percent of that weaponry (used by Mexican drug cartels), comes from our country, we are going to try to stop it from getting there in the first place."

Suddenly that 90 percent statistic was everywhere. It was like the statistic on women beaten by their husbands on Super Bowl Sunday.

CBS' Bob Schieffer asked Obama on "Face the Nation": "It's my understanding that 90 percent of the guns that they're getting down in Mexico are coming from the United States. We don't seem to be doing a very good job of cutting off the gun flow. Do you need any kind of legislative help on that front? Have you, for example, thought about asking Congress to reinstate the ban on assault weapons?"

At a Senate hearing, Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., said: "It is unacceptable to have 90 percent of the guns that are picked up in Mexico and used to shoot judges, police officers and mayors ... come from the United States."

And then, we found out the 90 percent figure was complete bunkum. It was a fabrication told by William Hoover, of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATF), and then spread like wildfire by Democrats and the media.

Mexican law enforcement authorities send only a fraction of the guns they recover from criminals back to the U.S. for tracing. Which guns do they send? The guns that have U.S. serial numbers on them. It would be like asking a library to produce all their Mark Twain books and then concluding that 90 percent of the books in that library are by Mark Twain.

Obama backed away from the preposterous 90 percent claim. His National Security Council spokesman explained that by "recovered," they meant "guns traceable to the United States." So, in other words, Democrats were frantically citing the amazing fact that almost all the guns traceable to the U.S. were ... traceable to the U.S.

From a previous thread, that 90% came from the guns that had any traceable origin. Of the guns Mexico could actually put a site to, 90% were American. The remaining guns had no way of discerning, as they were old and generally outdated. Which then hit the problem of the largest supplier of older model guns was also America.

But in the light of it, the accurate thing is: of guns we know the origin of, most are American.

[Edlichbury]

Statistics from various countries indicate that effective gun control works. That's not in any way a disputable fact. Australia literally eliminated mass shootings with gun control, Japan has successfully created a society that has fewer than ten deaths from gun violence annually on average and has yet to see those numbers climb above twenty. Gun control works when you actually do it. But if we continue with this "Gun control doesn't work!" myth, gun control in America will never have a chance to work.

http://www.guncite.com/gun-control-kill ... tract.html
Most relevant bit:

Interestingly, no significant correlations with total suicide or homicide rates were found, leaving open the question of possible substitution effects.

Also from the same thing: The results show very strong correlations between the presence of guns in the home and suicide committed with a gun, rates of gun-related homicide involving female victims, and gun-related assault.
If the question is "Can gun control stop gun violence?" the data is a pretty clear yes.

[Chernoslavia]

Conservative fantasy?

THIS....IS.....ALASKA!

*leonidus kick*

1. On a serious note...if police are that organized to that particular point, then why arent the streets being clean out from illegal narcotics? Yeah, exactly.

2. Please stop saying legal action because it is obviously not legal action until you can get congress to first legally repeal the 2nd Amendment which isnt practically possible. You'd accuse me of lawbreaking when your actions themselves are illegal.

3. Your starting to sound like the sort of tyrant we're talking about. I hope you realize your further justifying our actions.

4. You'd be surprised of all the hiding spots i've found.

1. Being narcotics are not being sold in obvious places. Houses, on the other hand, don't move.
2. That depends entirely upon the interpretation of the 2nd amendment. Currently it's interpreted as meaning individual rights, but a future SCOTUS could easily change that, pointing to the oft-ignored lines, "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state". And no, those actions would be unconstitutional, but until struck down, they would be legal.
3.The US gov is far more intrusive about the cyberworld, so compared to that, going into a house with a warrant and collecting the weapons with compensation seems like nothing at all.
4. Sure. Hide your guns. You can't hide them forever or they'll just rust. Anyway, your just breaking the system for your own benefit and to everyone else's detriment, because of the possibility that the guns get in the wrong hands. Have you ever heard of the tragedy of the commons? This is similar.

1. illegal guns are smuggled the same way as drugs are, what you said makes absolutely no sense.

2. Good luck getting the majority of Americans to approve of that.

3. I'll know in advance if they decide to take people's rights away. As intrusive as the government is, its very hard for them to not expose themselves which they have countless times. You shouldnt underestimate the enemy. We're not like Al-qaeda or the Taliban where they fire indiscriminately into a crowd of unarmed citizens, and this isnt Iraq or Afghan where there's nothing but open desert. We're Americans, and America has so many different kinds of land. We have forests, deserts, snows, caves, swamps, tropical forests, etc.

4. Oh blah blah blah. As if you know where I'll hide them.

[Occupied Deutschland]

http://www.guncite.com/gun-control-kill ... tract.html
Most relevant bit:

Also from the same thing: The results show very strong correlations between the presence of guns in the home and suicide committed with a gun, rates of gun-related homicide involving female victims, and gun-related assault.
If the question is "Can gun control stop gun violence?" the data is a pretty clear yes.

Except gun violence shouldn't be all your concerned with because stopping gun violence if it doesn't affect the suicide or homicide rate is FUCKING POINTLESS.

This is why I quoted that bit. Sure, get rid of guns and suddenly guns are used less. No surprise there. But if it doesn't affect the VIOLENCE in society (and there are studies on the opposite side that could be pointed to saying their not being present actively sees an increase in such violence) it's a completely unnecessary ball of hooey people latch onto because it makes them feel warm and tingly to finally have something to blame that can be demonized without any repercussions.

[Vitaphone Racing]

Also from the same thing: The results show very strong correlations between the presence of guns in the home and suicide committed with a gun, rates of gun-related homicide involving female victims, and gun-related assault.
If the question is "Can gun control stop gun violence?" the data is a pretty clear yes.

Except gun violence shouldn't be all your concerned with because stopping gun violence if it doesn't affect the suicide or homicide rate is FUCKING POINTLESS.
.

But it does

[Occupied Deutschland]

Except gun violence shouldn't be all your concerned with because stopping gun violence if it doesn't affect the suicide or homicide rate is FUCKING POINTLESS.
.

But it does

The 23-country study I linked to beats Australia.

Edit: Apologies, it's 21-country.

Edit 2: Or, perhaps I can counter your Australian evidence with US-based stuff. Relevant bit being that the total homocide and suicide rates remained unaffected by the Brady Bill's new gun laws.

[Vitaphone Racing]

But it does

The 23-country study I linked to beats Australia.

Edit: Apologies, it's 21-country.

A study where only the abstract can be read doesn't qualify as a source.

[Occupied Deutschland]

The 23-country study I linked to beats Australia.

Edit: Apologies, it's 21-country.

A study where only the abstract can be read doesn't qualify as a source.

A study from only Australia is not reliable enough to qualify as a source.

Now we have reached the gun-control thread event horizon. I believe it is at this point us pro-gun folks start posting gun porn, isn't that right?