Value of virginity and slut-shaming

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

I can't find anyone who would be willing to have sex with me, oh well- I guess I should feel ashamed.

There's always the Craigslist personals...

My butt hurt for a week, don't do it!

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

Self control sometimes is a value for people. The problem I see here is that somehow you think a "value" has to be something shared by the community in which you live in. You don't get to choose who has placed a value over what. Values are entirely personal and something you don't value may be something others value (I value self-control, because that's what's kept me from kicking other people's asses when they have insulted me, and that's also what's kept me with a clean criminal record, good standing with my peers, good standing with women, etc.) so to me self-control is a value, I value it because it helps in life.

It doesn't mean I expect for everyone else to have the same degree of self-control I do, but I, personally, like to have self-control over my actions, because fuck having to meet other people on their terms, I will do what I please and if anyone is willing to debate such a stupid point over, then the answer is it still the same: my body, my rules. It does, however go back around: my choice to remain a virgin is as valid as your choice to sleep around casually. They are not wrong, it's simply different views; however, if you are a dick about me being a virgin I have all the right to be a dick about being a virgin back.

And sex in and of itself is never bad, ever. The problem is some of us add a value that is different from your own. I want, for instance, to be in a good, long-term relationship before having sex with somebody. It isn't wrong, it isn't what you may or may not do, it simply is what I have decided because I choose who to sleep with, nobody else gets to choose who I get to sleep with or when. This is, at least, what many people think.

As for the bullying, I was also bullied when I was little. I break it off among children, but I was bullied by both my peers and my brothers for it. I am more laid back and I tend not to engage in stupid fights over something idiotic like that, but if someone is acting like a fool in real life, I don't hesitate to express my disapproval, but I have never fought anyone over about it.

You know what really angers me? You apparently seem to think that self-control is lost either once you have sex once, or during the act of sex itself. But it doesn't. I'm clearly not a virgin, and I'm clearly not ashamed of that. But I still have a lot of self-control. I don't sleep with people who I feel uncomfortable with, I never "lose control" and forgo or forget protection, I am definitely sane enough before and during the sexual act to make sure I know what my partner is willing, unwilling, and wants to do or what he wants to be done to him, and most importantly of all, I am in control of the situation enough to be able to say, "Stop" at any point in time, or to stop when my partner says "stop." I can go for as short or as long a period as I want without sex. I can choose the exact number of people I want to sleep with.

You know what self-control amounts to? Being in control of ones self to prohibit bad or unwanted behaviors. i.e., it's losing self-control if you binge eat five chocolate cakes. It's losing self-control if you're an alcoholic and you start drinking again. It's losing self-control if you're a self-harmer and you hurt yourself. It's NOT losing self-control by making a decision to preform an action that is neither bad nor inherently harmful, that involves you and another party, and you are both in control of your actions and body at that time.

The only people who don't have self-control in their sex life? Sex addicts and rapists.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

during the act of sex itself. But it doesn't. I'm clearly not a virgin, and I'm clearly not ashamed of that. But I still have a lot of self-control. I don't sleep with people who I feel uncomfortable with, I never "lose control" and forgo or forget protection, I am definitely sane enough before and during the sexual act to make sure I know what my partner is willing, unwilling, and wants to do or what he wants to be done to him, and most importantly of all, I am in control of the situation enough to be able to say, "Stop" at any point in time, or to stop when my partner says "stop." I can go for as short or as long a period as I want without sex. I can choose the exact number of people I want to sleep with.

You know what self-control amounts to? Being in control of ones self to prohibit bad or unwanted behaviors. i.e., it's losing self-control if you binge eat five chocolate cakes. It's losing self-control if you're an alcoholic and you start drinking again. It's losing self-control if you're a self-harmer and you hurt yourself. It's NOT losing self-control by making a decision to preform an action that is neither bad nor inherently harmful, that involves you and another party, and you are both in control of your actions and body at that time.

The only people who don't have self-control in their sex life? Sex addicts and rapists.

Clearly someone misunderstood my post.

Self-Control clearly means being able to choose whatever you want to do in whatever manner you see fit. If being a virgin is for someone a degree of self-control, so what? It's not like I am telling you "you have no self control", I am saying what amounts to:

"I believe me being a virgin is an exercise in self-control for me because I fucking want to have sex, but I am choosing to wait because that is within my own self-interest as an individual because clearly, I could pay someone to have sex with me if I so chose to, I could find a casual partner if I so chose to, but it's not what I fucking want or need, therefore I need to exercise self-control to avoid being in such awkward situations where I won't feel content about myself"

it doesn't mean your sex habits are wrong, it doesn't even mean I won't date someone who isn't a virgin, it just means that for me, as a personal value, I tend to see virginity as that, if you don't like it well good, but stop being all "you must think I am a slut simply because I am not a virgin" because I am not telling you that and that is not what the implications of my post were. Now can you stop being so dramatic about something that amounts to precisely nothing of what you are talking about?

It's fine if you have sex with whomever you want. Honestly, it's not like you even know my dating patterns or even how I look a woman who isn't a virgin (hint: virginity is irrelevant for me in regards of partners, as I honestly and frankly don't care about a girl's virginity, that's like, not even an issue in my relationships or women I frequent), and I could give a shit less about your first time having sex. However, just because I don't judge you or I think not being a virgin is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, doesn't mean I find my own virginity irrelevant or that I do not place whatever value I want to attribute to my own. If this is an issue for you take it where it fits because sincerely, I am not changing my own views about my choices for you.

If not having sex doesn't mean self-control for you that's fine, I won't point a gun at your head or be a dick about it. However, you totally extrapolated a personal view about a personal choice, and took it to mean an universal view about a personal choice, which isn't even what I was talking about in the first place on that post, but you just had to jump in and make it a big issue. It's not uncommon though, and I am really unsurprised about it.

[Northern Dominus]

There's always the Craigslist personals...

My butt hurt for a week, don't do it!

I extrapolate from there but I fear the simultanious modly wrath as well as your feminine vengeance TS

during the act of sex itself. But it doesn't. I'm clearly not a virgin, and I'm clearly not ashamed of that. But I still have a lot of self-control. I don't sleep with people who I feel uncomfortable with, I never "lose control" and forgo or forget protection, I am definitely sane enough before and during the sexual act to make sure I know what my partner is willing, unwilling, and wants to do or what he wants to be done to him, and most importantly of all, I am in control of the situation enough to be able to say, "Stop" at any point in time, or to stop when my partner says "stop." I can go for as short or as long a period as I want without sex. I can choose the exact number of people I want to sleep with.

You know what self-control amounts to? Being in control of ones self to prohibit bad or unwanted behaviors. i.e., it's losing self-control if you binge eat five chocolate cakes. It's losing self-control if you're an alcoholic and you start drinking again. It's losing self-control if you're a self-harmer and you hurt yourself. It's NOT losing self-control by making a decision to preform an action that is neither bad nor inherently harmful, that involves you and another party, and you are both in control of your actions and body at that time.

The only people who don't have self-control in their sex life? Sex addicts and rapists.

Clearly someone misunderstood my post.

Self-Control clearly means being able to choose whatever you want to do in whatever manner you see fit. If being a virgin is for someone a degree of self-control, so what? It's not like I am telling you "you have no self control", I am saying "I believe me being a virgin is an exercise in self-control because I fucking want to have sex, but I am choosing to wait because that is within my own self-interest as an individual" it doesn't mean your sex habits are wrong, it doesn't even mean I won't date someone who isn't a virgin, it just means that for me, as a personal value, I tend to see virginity as that, if you don't like it well good, but stop being all "you must think I am a slut simply because I am not a virgin" because I am not telling you that and that is not what the implications of my post were. Now can you stop being so dramatic about something that amounts to precisely nothing of what you are talking about?

It's fine if you have sex with whomever you want. Honestly, it's not like you even know my dating patterns or even how I look a woman who isn't a virgin (hint: virginity is irrelevant for me in regards of partners, as I honestly and frankly don't care about a girl's virginity, that's like, not even an issue in my relationships or women I frequent), and I could give a shit less about your first time having sex. However, just because I don't judge you or I think not being a virgin is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, doesn't mean I find my own virginity irrelevant or that I do not place whatever value I want to attribute to my own. If this is an issue for you take it where it fits because sincerely, I am not changing my own views about my choices for you.

If not having sex doesn't mean self-control for you that's fine, I won't point a gun at your head or be a dick about it. However, you totally extrapolated a personal view about a personal choice, and took it to mean an universal view about a personal choice, which isn't even what I was talking about in the first place on that post, but you just had to jump in and make it a big issue. It's not uncommon though, and I am really unsurprised about it.

Except you're the one that cited "self control" as some sort of ideological virtue, and that by implication suggests that anybody who seeks sexual satisfaction outside of an approved relationship pattern somehow is lacking and is lesser for it.

Tell me, how is that in any way less insidious or banal than insisting that women preserve their hymen at all costs?

[Czechanada]

No, silly, I wasn't saying that you disrespect sociology. I was just trying to clear up misconceptions. Well, microsociology certainly takes psychology into consideration, and social psychology (which a lot of common people think of when they think of sociology) blurs the line between psychology.

But psychology is far less important when discussing on the macrosociological level.

Oh, certainly. Anthropology is probably far more related to that.

Nyet.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Except you're the one that cited "self control" as some sort of ideological virtue, and that by implication suggests that anybody who seeks sexual satisfaction outside of an approved relationship pattern somehow is lacking and is lesser for it.

Tell me, how is that in any way less insidious or banal than insisting that women preserve their hymen at all costs?

Self control is an ideological virtue for those who attribute that value to it. I am not saying that people who are single and have sex do not have self-restraint. Being single and fucking as much as you want (or otherwise what you may call casual sex)? I see no issues with it, or even polygamous relationship patterns. I may disapprove of it in a personal manner (meaning I wouldn't do it personally) but it doesn't mean I think people who seek sexual satisfaction outside of an approved relationship pattern somehow are lesser for it.

And since when have I said women should keep their hymen at all costs?

[Northern Dominus]

Except you're the one that cited "self control" as some sort of ideological virtue, and that by implication suggests that anybody who seeks sexual satisfaction outside of an approved relationship pattern somehow is lacking and is lesser for it.

Tell me, how is that in any way less insidious or banal than insisting that women preserve their hymen at all costs?

Self control is an ideological virtue for those who attribute that value to it. I am not saying that people who are single and have sex do not have self-restraint. Being single and fucking as much as you want (or otherwise what you may call casual sex)? I see no issues with it, or even polygamous relationship patterns. I may disapprove of it in a personal manner (meaning I wouldn't do it personally) but it doesn't mean I think people who seek sexual satisfaction outside of an approved relationship pattern somehow are lesser for it.

And since when have I said women should keep their hymen at all costs?

You never made the hymen intactness argument outright, but your "self control" quip without context implied the same amount of banality. By not prefacing that with "I exercise self-control because it's a personal value", you instantly made it universally applicable.

That is the problem with the nebulous title of "virgin". The second somebody brings it up as some sort of virtue without being prompted and not making it a personal value, that puts people off in a bad way.

[Condunum]

Oh, certainly. Anthropology is probably far more related to that.

Nyet.

The study of humanity isn't related to the study of human society? O_o

[Northern Dominus]

Nyet.

The study of humanity isn't related to the study of human society? O_o

What about sociological anthropology?

[Czechanada]

Nyet.

The study of humanity isn't related to the study of human society? O_o

Yep.

[Condunum]

The study of humanity isn't related to the study of human society? O_o

Yep.

Uhh... How?

[Czechanada]

Yep.

Uhh... How?

Because anthropology is the direct study of humans, like cultural, linguistic and physical anthropology, and archaeology.

Sociology studies a wide range of topics in regard to society like institutions like media, religion, environment, law, corrections, deviance, as well as individual human behaviour. Marx's idea of superstructures or the tetrad of media effects don't seem that similar to anthropology.

It's true that sociology adapted ethnography from anthropology, but what they study aren't congruent.

[Condunum]

Uhh... How?

Because anthropology is the direct study of humans, like cultural, lingusitic, physical, anthropology, and archaeology.

Sociology study a wide range of topics in regard to society like institutions like media, religion, environment, law, corrections, deviance, and such or in contrast individual human behaviour. Marx's idea of superstructures or the tetrad of media effects don't seem that similar to anthropology.

It's true that sociology adapted ethnography from anthropology, but what they study aren't congruent.

I probably should have paid more attention in Soc class.

I'd actually have remembered this if I had.

[Northern Dominus]

Because anthropology is the direct study of humans, like cultural, lingusitic, physical, anthropology, and archaeology.

Sociology study a wide range of topics in regard to society like institutions like media, religion, environment, law, corrections, deviance, and such or in contrast individual human behaviour. Marx's idea of superstructures or the tetrad of media effects don't seem that similar to anthropology.

It's true that sociology adapted ethnography from anthropology, but what they study aren't congruent.

I probably should have paid more attention in Soc class.

I'd actually have remembered this if I had.

That's what you get for playing too many beer pong rounds for sexual favors with the sorority girls back in college

[Ayreonia]

Self control sometimes is a value for people. The problem I see here is that somehow you think a "value" has to be something shared by the community in which you live in. You don't get to choose who has placed a value over what. Values are entirely personal and something you don't value may be something others value (I value self-control, because that's what's kept me from kicking other people's asses when they have insulted me, and that's also what's kept me with a clean criminal record, good standing with my peers, good standing with women, etc.) so to me self-control is a value, I value it because it helps in life.

Ah, my sweet soldier-without-borders, you're basically agreeing with me, even if you don't realize it. A few posts back I said that self-control for the sake of self-control is pointless, that it's always a means to an end. Abstaining from sex does not help you in your life.

It doesn't mean I expect for everyone else to have the same degree of self-control I do, but I, personally, like to have self-control over my actions, because fuck having to meet other people on their terms, I will do what I please and if anyone is willing to debate such a stupid point over, then the answer is it still the same: my body, my rules. It does, however go back around: my choice to remain a virgin is as valid as your choice to sleep around casually. They are not wrong, it's simply different views; however, if you are a dick about me being a virgin I have all the right to be a dick about being a virgin back.

I'm not questioning your choice to be a virgin, just your reasons.

You infuriate me. Wanna have sex?

[Condunum]

I probably should have paid more attention in Soc class.

I'd actually have remembered this if I had.

That's what you get for playing too many beer pong rounds for sexual favors with the sorority girls back in college

#NoRegrets

[Frisivisia]

That's what you get for playing too many beer pong rounds for sexual favors with the sorority girls back in college

#NoRegrets

#YOLO

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Self control sometimes is a value for people. The problem I see here is that somehow you think a "value" has to be something shared by the community in which you live in. You don't get to choose who has placed a value over what. Values are entirely personal and something you don't value may be something others value (I value self-control, because that's what's kept me from kicking other people's asses when they have insulted me, and that's also what's kept me with a clean criminal record, good standing with my peers, good standing with women, etc.) so to me self-control is a value, I value it because it helps in life.

Ah, my sweet soldier-without-borders, you're basically agreeing with me, even if you don't realize it. A few posts back I said that self-control for the sake of self-control is pointless, that it's always a means to an end. Abstaining from sex does not help you in your life.

It doesn't mean I expect for everyone else to have the same degree of self-control I do, but I, personally, like to have self-control over my actions, because fuck having to meet other people on their terms, I will do what I please and if anyone is willing to debate such a stupid point over, then the answer is it still the same: my body, my rules. It does, however go back around: my choice to remain a virgin is as valid as your choice to sleep around casually. They are not wrong, it's simply different views; however, if you are a dick about me being a virgin I have all the right to be a dick about being a virgin back.

I'm not questioning your choice to be a virgin, just your reasons.

You infuriate me. Wanna have sex?

1 - Well, okay, maybe it isn't so much a disagreement after all, but a plain misunderstanding? And well, no, abstaining for sex doesn't help me, but having peace of mind does I am just putting off sex until I am with someone who I feel comfortable being intimate with. Of course, with time the range of people who I may feel comfortable has decreased.

2 - Hmm... Sounds like a good idea, but I am not so sure I will go ahead with it

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Self control is an ideological virtue for those who attribute that value to it. I am not saying that people who are single and have sex do not have self-restraint. Being single and fucking as much as you want (or otherwise what you may call casual sex)? I see no issues with it, or even polygamous relationship patterns. I may disapprove of it in a personal manner (meaning I wouldn't do it personally) but it doesn't mean I think people who seek sexual satisfaction outside of an approved relationship pattern somehow are lesser for it.

And since when have I said women should keep their hymen at all costs?

You never made the hymen intactness argument outright, but your "self control" quip without context implied the same amount of banality. By not prefacing that with "I exercise self-control because it's a personal value", you instantly made it universally applicable.

That is the problem with the nebulous title of "virgin". The second somebody brings it up as some sort of virtue without being prompted and not making it a personal value, that puts people off in a bad way.

You may be right. And that is a mistake I am willing to admit, that I should have specified it was a personal value.

I personally don't believe in absolutes, as morality is pretty subjective. What's in my self-interest to do may not be in yours and vice-versa. It doesn't mean it is ever right to harm others, but concepts of morality are simply not universal because all of us have different wants and needs. I would be an idiot if I ever was to assume that what is useful, or even beneficial to me is for another person, as that person may need a different solution under the same circumstances.

[Freelanderness]

I also don't understand this concept of virginity, as there is absolutely no way to prove it at all, even with a female. The hymen is not what you think it is.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I also don't understand this concept of virginity, as there is absolutely no way to prove it at all, even with a female. The hymen is not what you think it is.

The hymen isn't even relevant, like, at all.

[The Truth and Light]

In my opinion, when you consider the origins of the concept of virginity, it's very clear that it was used to objectify women. Like in medieval Europe, for example, where a woman's marriageability was tied to her subservience, her family's wealth, and her virginity.

As a concept I think it's outdated. Way outdated. I also think it's reminiscent of a toxic attitude towards sex; that there is a right way to have sex and that it affects one's quality as a human being. This is very in-conducive for a healthy narrative about sex, in my opinion.

[Murray land]

Virginity has always been valued; this is old news. Humans, especially women, have generally been expected to remain chaste until marriage. An increasing number of public schools and private schools teach abstinence.

When women, and sometimes men, choose to be rather sexually active they are considered sluts, whores, and other degrading terms. This is known as slut shaming. See here for a definition.

So, NSG, what do you think of this? Do you value virginty? What do you think of slut-shaming?

I think how one values virginity is up to them. I may want to wait, but if you want to lose it young then I don't see what's wrong with that. I think it's just important that you aren't pressured into losing or keeping it.
Slut shaming is pretty pathetic. What others do with their body doesn't affect you, so it shouldn't matter.

If man bangs eight chicks in a night he is labeled a legend. If a girl does it shes a whore. I agree with this sytem it has served humanity well.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

In my opinion, when you consider the origins of the concept of virginity, it's very clear that it was used to objectify women. Like in medieval Europe, for example, where a woman's marriageability was tied to her subservience, her family's wealth, and her virginity.

As a concept I think it's outdated. Way outdated. I also think it's reminiscent of a toxic attitude towards sex; that there is a right way to have sex and that it affects one's quality as a human being. This is very in-conducive for a healthy narrative about sex, in my opinion.

I wonder if sexism is all you have in that head of yours or if it is just you being in character.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

If man bangs eight chicks in a night he is labeled a legend.

Not in my books

Although a man (or woman) who does it is fine and dandy, bragging about it makes him or her sound like a dick.