Value of virginity and slut-shaming

[Soldati Senza Confini]

1. Its not redefining, so much as an alternate definition.

2. Just because something is or was the standard doesn't mean it should be.

3. It should be.

4. Yes. Society HAS changed its paradigm. Via the method I outlined.

5. No. Even back when it was legal, many people considered it inhumane.

6. If the side-effects are shitty, then I wouldn't exactly call it progress.

7. Again, it wasn't progress. Progress is change that effects the most good.

1 - It is still redefining what murder is. Self-defense killing is still killing a person, same as murder is killing a person. If killing others is an absolute wrong, then it is bad also to kill in self-defense.

2 - But how would you know this is not how things are supposed to be if that is what you have seen all your life? You see, just because someone tells you that it is wrong it doesn't mean it is wrong in your lifetime as you find it a very common thing to do, thus it is not wrong for you. Therefore it being subjective, not objective as you claim.

3 - It should, but it's not.

4 - Yes, but it doesn't mean it cannot change again, that is the whole point.

5 - Many doesn't mean everyone.

6 - But it is still progress in the view of people, so why is it wrong then if that is progress for them?

7 - Then it was good, as it benefited all Germans and Europeans under Hitler's rule, or so they thought. Hence, we can conclude that Nazi Europe was progressive, although not the way you expected, which is irrelevant. It gave Europeans the most good because they did not have to deal with the ebul jews, and so this benefited everyone, so why are we not damning the Jews for not being exterminated at the hands of Hitler and the Nazis? Clearly is what Europe wanted.

[NERVUN]

Some one has nice guy syndrome.

No, just not giving a shit about what both of you are talking about any longer

Really and truly, I am not even being nice right now, I am just not giving a fuck about this whole conversation any longer and I am just replying just to spite you. Happy about an honest response instead of that diatribe?

If you don't care, don't post, m'k?

[Bojikami]

There is no value. In my opinion, if there are girls that want to give up their virginity to some guy, let 'em.

[Eucadian Federation]

No, just not giving a shit about what both of you are talking about any longer

Really and truly, I am not even being nice right now, I am just not giving a fuck about this whole conversation any longer and I am just replying just to spite you. Happy about an honest response instead of that diatribe?

If you don't care, don't post, m'k?

This.

[Northern Dominus]

Just putting this out there - I do not understand this fascination with other people's sex lives or lack thereof. As long as they're happy and aren't spreading diseases, having children that they refuse to care for or otherwise not harming anyone, why should anyone care.

Is it perhaps a perceived lack in the fascinated party's own life that is being avoided?

You're close I think. I'd wager it's more of "Nobody gets to be happier than my special pious/asexual self, so I'll try and drag everyone else around me down to my level."

[Czechanada]

In before the wrath of Czechanada.

Hey, I respect Sociology. However, any good sociologist will recognize the absolute necessity of psychology for their career.

No, silly, I wasn't saying that you disrespect sociology. I was just trying to clear up misconceptions. Well, microsociology certainly takes psychology into consideration, and social psychology (which a lot of common people think of when they think of sociology) blurs the line between psychology.

But psychology is far less important when discussing on the macrosociological level.

[Wikipedia and Universe]

How is chastity bullshit? It's a much healthier lifestyle than screwing every other person you meet.

False dichotomy.

^Was gonna say that. It's funny how ZA countered my statement that chastity is bullshit with a bullshit fallacious argument.

How is chastity bullshit? It's a much healthier lifestyle than screwing every other person you meet.

How so? Other than increased risk of STDs, which are mitigated provided you practice safe sex?

Good point.

There's no such thing as "sexual repression", only self restraint.

Ah, I'm familiar with the "self control" argument. It takes the valid concept of exercising restraint in avoiding dangerous high-risk sexual behavior (Note that "casual" does not necessarily imply "dangerous" or "high risk". I'm speaking with respect to using protection, due diligence, etc.) and extrapolates it to imply all casual sex or fornication is bad, hazardous, or "meaningless" (I'll get to that "meaningless" bullshit in a short bit).

I've never had sex, I've been offered quite a few times, but casual sex is for hedonists.

Yes, we wouldn't want to be associated with those filthy "hedonists", no sirree. Let's take a look at the definition of "hedonism", shall we?

he·don·ism
/ˈhēdnˌizəm/
Noun
1. The pursuit of pleasure.
2. The ethical theory that pleasure is the highest good and proper aim of human life.

The first definition looks fairly reasonable. The second looks a tad absolutist, but it seems to pertain more to the philosophical theory of ethical hedonism, so I'll stick to a more reasonable interpretation. Taking points from both given definitions, I'll put together a working definition that a "hedonist" is someone who pursues pleasure without shame and views it as a good thing. With that, I don't see how "hedonism" is actually all that bad. Nice try using it as a snarl word, though.

I refuse to indulge in such a meaningless interaction.

This bullshit characterization of casual sex, fornication, or other forms of sex outside a traditionally "committed" situation (often defined by a normative standard) as "meaningless sex" is getting really annoying. In my view, the only thing needed for sex to be "meaningful" is a combination of interest, joy, and respect.

I do not value virginity at all, and I absolutely despise slut-shaming. I do not think favorably of chastity, viewing it as bullshit, but I'm not going harass or "shame" those who practice it. If one wills to place such a yoke upon themselves, I won't attempt to thwart them, but simply let them go down their own path.

What is "chastity" to you?

It is, these days, a fairly broad umbrella that can cover all sorts of motivations.

To me, chastity includes absolute total abstinence, "abstinence before marriage" and other arbitrary forms of abstinence, antisexualism, and other forms of prudishness (in certain contexts). While not acts of chastity in themselves, I also regard certain notions about sex, such as the view of sex as a chore or as a bargaining chip, as "chaste ideas."

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Ah, I'm familiar with the "self control" argument. It takes the valid concept of exercising restraint in avoiding dangerous high-risk sexual behavior (Note that "casual" does not necessarily imply "dangerous" or "high risk". I'm speaking with respect to using protection, due diligence, etc.) and extrapolates it to imply all casual sex or fornication is bad, hazardous, or "meaningless" (I'll get to that "meaningless" bullshit in a short bit).

This bullshit characterization of casual sex, fornication, or other forms of sex outside a traditionally "committed" situation (often defined by a normative standard) as "meaningless sex" is getting really annoying. In my view, the only thing needed for sex to be "meaningful" is a combination of interest, joy, and respect.

To me, chastity includes absolute total abstinence, "abstinence before marriage" and other arbitrary forms of abstinence, antisexualism, and other forms of prudishness (in certain contexts). While not acts of chastity in themselves, I also regard certain notions about sex, such as the view of sex as a chore or as a bargaining chip, as "chaste ideas."

1 - The "self control" argument has some validity though.
If a person wants to exercise self-control over his or her desires there is nothing wrong with that. You must learn how to make a better argument other than tearing down people for what they believe, just saying.

2 - Your view is not a universal view, as seen by the fact that many people see sex outside of a relationship as a bad thing (I myself see it as a personal detriment), and what you are describing would be an ideal situation, sadly this isn't the case many times, and other people attach an emotional value to sex, not just a self-gratifying one. You may view sex as a self-gratifying activity, and it is, but value standards are different for different people.

3 - Sex as a chore or as a bargaining chip are not "chaste ideas", they are manipulative ideas, but not chaste. Although total abstinence, antisexualism, and other forms of prudishness are quite not your cup of tea, it doesn't mean they are necessarily wrong either, as attested by the fact that many people also find value in it, and are more content they followed their own personal value than letting it go because of someone else.

Also, as a side note, it is quite funny how the same people who say "live and let live" also come criticizing others about their own views. In a way, I am guilty of this, but at least I am not denying it. Others, on the other hand, pretend to be quite the heroes of equality and freedom of choice but instead come across as quite absolutist about what is right and what is wrong.

[Fabachor]

Why is it that for the entirety of this 84 page thread that everyone only cares about the virginity ( or lake there of) of women. No one have discussed weither or not they value virginity in men. Personally I don't give a crap weither anyone is a virgin or not as long as they are healthy and if they are sexually active that they practice safe sex to avoid STDs and STIs.

[Cameroi]

"slut shaming" is evil. it is another example of perspectives of religious, quasi-religious, and pseudo-religious origin, standing any kind of real morality, completely on its head.

virginity is an accident of birth, possessed of no real value nor significance. none at all what so ever outside of often religion based mythologies

[The Rich Port]

"slut shaming" is evil. it is another example of perspectives of religious, quasi-religious, and pseudo-religious origin, standing any kind of real morality, completely on its head.

virginity is an accident of birth, possessed of no real value nor significance. none at all what so ever outside of often religion based mythologies

The fuck is virginity, anyway?

The most accurate is "you've never had sexual intercourse with another person", which is such an abstract, indeterminable concept I'm surprised we identified it exists in the first place.

[Cameroi]

"slut shaming" is evil. it is another example of perspectives of religious, quasi-religious, and pseudo-religious origin, standing any kind of real morality, completely on its head.

virginity is an accident of birth, possessed of no real value nor significance. none at all what so ever outside of often religion based mythologies

The fuck is virginity, anyway?

The most accurate is "you've never had sexual intercourse with another person", which is such an abstract, indeterminable concept I'm surprised we identified it exists in the first place.

for females of mammalian species, it is defined as an intact hyman. for males there is no physical definition. thus gender biased absurdity and the absurdity of gender bias.

[Northern Dominus]

"slut shaming" is evil. it is another example of perspectives of religious, quasi-religious, and pseudo-religious origin, standing any kind of real morality, completely on its head.

virginity is an accident of birth, possessed of no real value nor significance. none at all what so ever outside of often religion based mythologies

If anything it's a liability.

People can deried "sluts" all they want, but when it comes to body knowledge, especially regarding erogenous zones and mutual pleasure, who's the first choice in that case? Plus then there's the lack of "first time" commitment issues as well.

[The Rich Port]

The fuck is virginity, anyway?

The most accurate is "you've never had sexual intercourse with another person", which is such an abstract, indeterminable concept I'm surprised we identified it exists in the first place.

for females of mammalian species, it is defined as an intact hyman. for males there is no physical definition. thus gender biased absurdity and the absurdity of gender bias.

Actually, the hymen is nowadays not used as an indicator of virginity save by people who don't know how hymens work

Sometimes, it is kept intact despite repeated sexual activity. Sometimes, you can wreck your hymen without having had any sex at all.

Hymens are not good virginity barometers.

[Northern Dominus]

for females of mammalian species, it is defined as an intact hyman. for males there is no physical definition. thus gender biased absurdity and the absurdity of gender bias.

Actually, the hymen is nowadays not used as an indicator of virginity save by people who don't know how hymens work

Sometimes, it is kept intact despite repeated sexual activity. Sometimes, you can wreck your hymen without having had any sex at all.

Hymens are not good virginity barometers.

Which again highlights the point that "virginity" and "chastity are concepts which are highly misogynist to begin with and patently primitive overall.

[The Rich Port]

Actually, the hymen is nowadays not used as an indicator of virginity save by people who don't know how hymens work

Sometimes, it is kept intact despite repeated sexual activity. Sometimes, you can wreck your hymen without having had any sex at all.

Hymens are not good virginity barometers.

Which again highlights the point that "virginity" and "chastity are concepts which are highly misogynist to begin with and patently primitive overall.

Exactly.

It's such a nebulous, unnecessary concept I'm unsure how the argument turned inevitably to "we shouldn't shame virgins either".

No, we shouldn't, but I doubt people have reasonable or good reasons for valuing it enough not to "waste" it. The concept isn't even well-defined. We don't even know what we would be shaming them about.

I'm still confused on why virginity is a good thing to preserve, like a credit rating.

[Ayreonia]

(note: this isn't directed at you, Soldati, you've just brought up points I want to rant on)

1 - The "self control" argument has some validity though.
If a person wants to exercise self-control over his or her desires there is nothing wrong with that. You must learn how to make a better argument other than tearing down people for what they believe, just saying.

Correction: it would have validity if sex were a negative thing, or at least had tangible negative consequences. Exercising self-control is good and even admirable (at least I think it is) when it comes to actually unhealthy habits like eating wrong, smoking or drinking. I just can't see the value of not having sex, since it's universally agreed that sex is good for you.

2 - Your view is not a universal view, as seen by the fact that many people see sex outside of a relationship as a bad thing (I myself see it as a personal detriment), and what you are describing would be an ideal situation, sadly this isn't the case many times, and other people attach an emotional value to sex, not just a self-gratifying one. You may view sex as a self-gratifying activity, and it is, but value standards are different for different people.

Ah, but if sex outside of a relationship actually were a bad thing, it'd mean that sex itself is inherently bad. Which it isn't. Is eating tacos outside of a relationship bad? It's the same difference.

And who's saying that self-gratifying sex and emotional sex cannot coexist outside of a marriage? Having sex with someone means attraction and acceptance. How is that not emotionally gratifying? It doesn't have to be "OMG we're so in love" sex. Being too cutesy kills desire, at least for me.

3 - Sex as a chore or as a bargaining chip are not "chaste ideas", they are manipulative ideas, but not chaste. Although total abstinence, antisexualism, and other forms of prudishness are quite not your cup of tea, it doesn't mean they are necessarily wrong either, as attested by the fact that many people also find value in it, and are more content they followed their own personal value than letting it go because of someone else.

Also, as a side note, it is quite funny how the same people who say "live and let live" also come criticizing others about their own views. In a way, I am guilty of this, but at least I am not denying it. Others, on the other hand, pretend to be quite the heroes of equality and freedom of choice but instead come across as quite absolutist about what is right and what is wrong.

For me, it's just because I'm fed the fuck up with virgins who think virginity is an ideal state of being and that it should be protected at all cost, because having sex means caving in to base instincts and moral degradation. Fuck no. That's just a story virgins tell themselves because they feel bad since they aren't getting any. And any person who tries to elevate themself above others is a terrible human being and should be ashamed of themself. Ay emm aitch oh.

I'll have nobody judging me for having sex. Nobody.

[Northern Dominus]

(note: this isn't directed at you, Soldati, you've just brought up points I want to rant on)

3 - Sex as a chore or as a bargaining chip are not "chaste ideas", they are manipulative ideas, but not chaste. Although total abstinence, antisexualism, and other forms of prudishness are quite not your cup of tea, it doesn't mean they are necessarily wrong either, as attested by the fact that many people also find value in it, and are more content they followed their own personal value than letting it go because of someone else.

Also, as a side note, it is quite funny how the same people who say "live and let live" also come criticizing others about their own views. In a way, I am guilty of this, but at least I am not denying it. Others, on the other hand, pretend to be quite the heroes of equality and freedom of choice but instead come across as quite absolutist about what is right and what is wrong.

For me, it's just because I'm fed the fuck up with virgins who think virginity is an ideal state of being and that it should be protected at all cost, because having sex means caving in to base instincts and moral degradation. Fuck no. That's just a story virgins tell themselves because they feel bad since they aren't getting any. And any person who tries to elevate themself above others is a terrible human being and should be ashamed of themself. Ay emm aitch oh.

I'll have nobody judging me for having sex. Nobody.

To sum up: Virgins R boring

Which...come to think of it is true, most likely.

[Ayreonia]

(note: this isn't directed at you, Soldati, you've just brought up points I want to rant on)


For me, it's just because I'm fed the fuck up with virgins who think virginity is an ideal state of being and that it should be protected at all cost, because having sex means caving in to base instincts and moral degradation. Fuck no. That's just a story virgins tell themselves because they feel bad since they aren't getting any. And any person who tries to elevate themself above others is a terrible human being and should be ashamed of themself. Ay emm aitch oh.

I'll have nobody judging me for having sex. Nobody.

To sum up: Virgins R boring

Which...come to think of it is true, most likely.

That's... not how I wanted to come across. I have friends who are similarly aged but still virgins and I enjoy spending time with them immensely. They don't rub their virginity in my face, I don't rub my sex life in theirs (unless they ask). We get along fine. However, if any of them tried to tell me they're better people than me because I'm no virgin, I wouldn't react positively. I'd probably punch them.

[Nailed to the Perch]

(note: this isn't directed at you, Soldati, you've just brought up points I want to rant on)


For me, it's just because I'm fed the fuck up with virgins who think virginity is an ideal state of being and that it should be protected at all cost, because having sex means caving in to base instincts and moral degradation. Fuck no. That's just a story virgins tell themselves because they feel bad since they aren't getting any. And any person who tries to elevate themself above others is a terrible human being and should be ashamed of themself. Ay emm aitch oh.

I'll have nobody judging me for having sex. Nobody.

To sum up: Virgins R boring

Which...come to think of it is true, most likely.

Yeah, no. Being a virgin is perfectly fine. Not being a virgin is also perfectly fine. It's not an improvement to move from "if you have sex you're icky" to "if you don't have sex you're boring."

[Rocopurr]

(note: this isn't directed at you, Soldati, you've just brought up points I want to rant on)


For me, it's just because I'm fed the fuck up with virgins who think virginity is an ideal state of being and that it should be protected at all cost, because having sex means caving in to base instincts and moral degradation. Fuck no. That's just a story virgins tell themselves because they feel bad since they aren't getting any. And any person who tries to elevate themself above others is a terrible human being and should be ashamed of themself. Ay emm aitch oh.

I'll have nobody judging me for having sex. Nobody.

To sum up: Virgins R boring :p

Which...come to think of it is true, most likely.

Nope. How much or how little sex you've had has nothing to do with if you're boring or interesting.

[Condunum]

Hey, I respect Sociology. However, any good sociologist will recognize the absolute necessity of psychology for their career.

No, silly, I wasn't saying that you disrespect sociology. I was just trying to clear up misconceptions. Well, microsociology certainly takes psychology into consideration, and social psychology (which a lot of common people think of when they think of sociology) blurs the line between psychology.

But psychology is far less important when discussing on the macrosociological level.

Oh, certainly. Anthropology is probably far more related to that.

[Northern Dominus]

To sum up: Virgins R boring

Which...come to think of it is true, most likely.

That's... not how I wanted to come across. I have friends who are similarly aged but still virgins and I enjoy spending time with them immensely. They don't rub their virginity in my face, I don't rub my sex life in theirs (unless they ask). We get along fine. However, if any of them tried to tell me they're better people than me because I'm no virgin, I wouldn't react positively. I'd probably punch them.

You have a...

To sum up: Virgins R boring

Which...come to think of it is true, most likely.

Yeah, no. Being a virgin is perfectly fine. Not being a virgin is also perfectly fine. It's not an improvement to move from "if you have sex you're icky" to "if you don't have sex you're boring."

Like I was say...

To sum up: Virgins R boring

Which...come to think of it is true, most likely.

Nope. How much or how little sex you've had has nothing to do with if you're boring or interesting.

Okay, yes, I made a blanket statement and posted before thinking about it. I apologize.

To go back to Ayreonia's original point and my (rather silly) bit, if we're using the word "virgin" to define a human being who makes a big deal about not having sex, then I stand by the notion that they are boring. The individuals that Ayreonia noted that are virgins but don't make a big deal of it most likely do not because they're too busy doing other things IE having a life.

A "virgin" (again defining a person who goes out of their way to note that they haven't had any sort of sexual contact or up to X point) on the other hand is a boring person. Because if they're making a point of that then they probably don't have much else going on in their life to occupy them.

And, let's be honest here, the sex drives sometimes encourages people to do silly or insane things. Even if they don't play out, that drive usually ends in a good story and a bonding experience for more than one person regardless of the coitus or lack thereof as a result. Therefore they have that experience and story to tell and are therefore most likely perceived as more interesting. To wit, bragging about one's sexual exploits in an unsolicited fashion is just as annoying and off-putting as bragging about one's lack of sexual experience, but in the end experience and daring make for a more interesting person.

[Condunum]

(note: this isn't directed at you, Soldati, you've just brought up points I want to rant on)


For me, it's just because I'm fed the fuck up with virgins who think virginity is an ideal state of being and that it should be protected at all cost, because having sex means caving in to base instincts and moral degradation. Fuck no. That's just a story virgins tell themselves because they feel bad since they aren't getting any. And any person who tries to elevate themself above others is a terrible human being and should be ashamed of themself. Ay emm aitch oh.

I'll have nobody judging me for having sex. Nobody.

To sum up: Virgins R boring

Which...come to think of it is true, most likely.

The only thing I've see it change is familiarity with sex. If that's your definition of how enjoyable a person is... Well, I wont say anything.

[Northern Dominus]

To sum up: Virgins R boring

Which...come to think of it is true, most likely.

The only thing I've see it change is familiarity with sex. If that's your definition of how enjoyable a person is... Well, I wont say anything.

...sigh, see above. Yes I made a generalization. As for personal enjoyment... I'll just leave that rimshot hanging