Value of virginity and slut-shaming

[Dyakovo]

That is so much math and so many numbers and the diaper cost would just be ungodly... What about 2? Should we just go for 2?

Two is good. And a puppy?

You want to give birth to a puppy?

[Condunum]

Yay.



Last time I check one doesn't need a degree on topic to hold a discussion on it.

When one is presenting themselves as an infallible authority on the subject, some evidence of expertise in the field is helpful.

Or at least an understanding of morality itself.

Which even the unqualified me has.

[Grenartia]

Actually, some values shouldn't be permitted. However, Alaje's concept of where to draw the line is highly arbitrary, and seems to have no real justification other than "I don't like it".



I think this topic falls under the realm of sociology more than psychology (although there's a fair bit of overlap).



Damn. That is one sexy brain you have.

What values shouldn't be permitted?

Well, any value that inherently causes the deprivation of others' rights without their informed consent.

You don't, but it would add some weight to the generalizations and assertions you make, that or some substantive proof.

The funny thing is, any credible sociologist (Gren is right, that's the more related field) would call what he said hogwash. The weight of actions are determined by their modifiers. extra-relationship sex is more often than not viewed in it's own way, separate from sex in a relationship. Casual, generally consensual, generally morally gray. Sex in a relationship is almost always viewed as a generally romantic thing, given the already existent bond between the people.

What Alaje is doing is a classic mistake of morality. He's imposing his own modifiers on sex, regardless of if they actually apply or not.

Example: I view butterflies as pretty. This does not make butterflies pretty; I believe they look pretty, but they are not inherently pretty. Sex is not inherently good nor bad; Alaje is saying that it has inherent value, which is does not.

Exactly.

That's exactly what I thought on the first day of sociology class when our teacher was explaining the similarities and differences between the two.

Also reminds me of that XKCD comic.

Yep. That's the one.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

You have to have a reason for liking it.

I really didn't want to explain why, but you seem so annoyingly insistent on something that shouldn't matter. Here's why:

I'm a virgin myself. I feel left out and left behind because everyone else my age is banging away. I'm bad with girls as it is, so I know I'm not loosing my virginity for a while. However, I've come to accept that. Still sucks feeling left out though.

I'm the jealous type, and I'm very possessive and territorial. When I think about having sex with a girl, I think about it being something very special for the both us, and having it be one of the best experiences of each other's lives. If she's been with other men, then how could I know if what I did with her was all that meaningful if Joe Schmoe probably gave her the time of her life. I'd feel like I was worth less than her previous lovers, as if I was just another guy for her to fuck. It would cheapen the whole thing.

I've also got a dirty mind. I wouldn't like to put my penis in a place whether other penises have been in before. It seems icky, and relates to the above paragraph that I'm just another dick she's taking and not anything meaningful.


I'm now in a bad mood, but probably because I almost got in a horrible car accident two hours ago.

Listen the fuck here, alright?
Virgin shaming is just as fucking bad as slut shaming and if I were near you and heard anyone virgin shaming you or making you feel bad for not having sex I would punch them in the face. And I don't even fucking like you.
And if you are serious about wanting your first time to be special, wait for a girl who you love, and make sure she loves you. And if she loves you, it doesn't matter if the sex was the best she's every had or you were the shittiest fucker she's ever let her vagina encounter. If she fucking loves you it will be special and she will be pleased beyond measure. Don't fucking listen to anyone who says otherwise because they are fucking wrong as fuck and you should kick them in their dicks/twatpots.
If she's been with other men, does that mean you can't love her? Because that's what my fucking husband said when he found out I wasn't a virgin, and I fucking ripped him a new one because that's a dick move and you've gotta grow the fuck up if you're judging women on their previous sexual life.
And you don't want to put your penis in a place where other penises have been? What the fuck? Do you fucking think it's like rubbing your junk on another man's junk? because it's fucking not. And again, whether you're her fucking first, or the 100th penis she's had in her cooch, if SHE FUCKING LOVES YOU IT'S FUCKING MEANINGFUL.
So, all you've fucking shown me here is that:
A) there are some assholes in your life that you need to take the fuck down when they virgin shame you;
B) You are currently not fucking mature enough to be in a goddamn relationship;
C) You think women are fucking damaged for having sex, and that is fucking wrong and you need to grow up.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

I-I was thinking more along the lines of an Irish Wolfhound??? Maybe a sweet english bulldog???
Also I love cats so I'm bringing my two. They're fucking idiots and I love them.

Our marriage is going awesome so far. High five!

Hell yeah!
Also, prepare for me to wear a lot of heels and stockings. It's gonna fucking happen.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

That's exactly what I thought on the first day of sociology class when our teacher was explaining the similarities and differences between the two.

Also reminds me of that XKCD comic.

Which is why I'm dual-majoring in physics and math.
*pops collar*
#YOLO

[Desperate Measures]

Our marriage is going awesome so far. High five!

Hell yeah!
Also, prepare for me to wear a lot of heels and stockings. It's gonna fucking happen.

As long as I get to, too.

[Individuality-ness]

Which is why I'm dual-majoring in physics and math.
*pops collar*
#YOLO

Show off. I'm not that smart.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

Hell yeah!
Also, prepare for me to wear a lot of heels and stockings. It's gonna fucking happen.

As long as I get to, too.

ok

[Nailed to the Perch]

You have to have a reason for liking it.

I really didn't want to explain why, but you seem so annoyingly insistent on something that shouldn't matter. Here's why:

I'm a virgin myself. I feel left out and left behind because everyone else my age is banging away. I'm bad with girls as it is, so I know I'm not losing my virginity for a while. However, I've come to accept that. Still sucks feeling left out though.

I'm the jealous type, and I'm very possessive and territorial. When I think about having sex with a girl, I think about it being something very special for the both us, and having it be one of the best experiences of each other's lives. If she's been with other men, then how could I know if what I did with her was all that meaningful if Joe Schmoe probably gave her the time of her life. I'd feel like I was worth less than her previous lovers, as if I was just another guy for her to fuck. It would cheapen the whole thing.

Or you could take it entirely the opposite way - she COULD be with any number of Joe Schmoes, but she chose to be with you. My partner had sex with a significant number of people before we met. So when he tells me he'd choose me over any of them, that makes me feel pretty awesome.

I've also got a dirty mind. I wouldn't like to put my penis in a place whether other penises have been in before. It seems icky, and relates to the above paragraph that I'm just another dick she's taking and not anything meaningful.

...do you also feel that way about shaking hands with people? "EWWWW YOUR HANDS HAVE TOUCHED HANDS OTHER THAN MINE AT SOME POINT IN YOUR LIFE, YOU HAVE PERMANENT ICKY HAND COOTIES"? Because that's pretty freaking stupid, I have to say.

Sex with someone you care deeply about and who cares deeply about you will be meaningful, no matter what. That meaning isn't invested by the lack of magical penis-cooties, but by the caring.

[Condunum]

Which is why I'm dual-majoring in physics and math.
*pops collar*
#YOLO

That almost puts my philosophical high-horsing to shame.

Almost.

[Condunum]

I really didn't want to explain why, but you seem so annoyingly insistent on something that shouldn't matter. Here's why:

I'm a virgin myself. I feel left out and left behind because everyone else my age is banging away. I'm bad with girls as it is, so I know I'm not losing my virginity for a while. However, I've come to accept that. Still sucks feeling left out though.

I'm the jealous type, and I'm very possessive and territorial. When I think about having sex with a girl, I think about it being something very special for the both us, and having it be one of the best experiences of each other's lives. If she's been with other men, then how could I know if what I did with her was all that meaningful if Joe Schmoe probably gave her the time of her life. I'd feel like I was worth less than her previous lovers, as if I was just another guy for her to fuck. It would cheapen the whole thing.

Or you could take it entirely the opposite way - she COULD be with any number of Joe Schmoes, but she chose to be with you. My partner had sex with a significant number of people before we met. So when he tells me he'd choose me over any of them, that makes me feel pretty awesome.

That's the problem with irrational fears though, isn't it? They aren't based in rational reasoning, but a knee-jerk reaction coupled with an almost overwhelming wave of emotions that render you completely vulnerable to yourself. While he could try to do that, he'd certainly need the positive reinforcement of those around him to help him realize that is the truth of it all, and accept it.

[Gauntleted Fist]

Which is why I'm dual-majoring in physics and math.
*pops collar*
#YOLO

Show off. I'm not that smart.

You don't have to be smart to be a mathematician or physicist. Or both.

[Individuality-ness]

Show off. I'm not that smart.

You don't have to be smart to be a mathematician or physicist. Or both.

I do if I want to fully understand it, which I don't.

[Libertarian California]

Or you could take it entirely the opposite way - she COULD be with any number of Joe Schmoes, but she chose to be with you. My partner had sex with a significant number of people before we met. So when he tells me he'd choose me over any of them, that makes me feel pretty awesome.

That's the problem with irrational fears though, isn't it? They aren't based in rational reasoning, but a knee-jerk reaction coupled with an almost overwhelming wave of emotions that render you completely vulnerable to yourself. While he could try to do that, he'd certainly need the positive reinforcement of those around him to help him realize that is the truth of it all, and accept it.

At least someone's not a complete cunt about it.

[Condunum]

That's the problem with irrational fears though, isn't it? They aren't based in rational reasoning, but a knee-jerk reaction coupled with an almost overwhelming wave of emotions that render you completely vulnerable to yourself. While he could try to do that, he'd certainly need the positive reinforcement of those around him to help him realize that is the truth of it all, and accept it.

At least someone's not a complete cunt about it.

When I come here happy, I come here smart.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

That's the problem with irrational fears though, isn't it? They aren't based in rational reasoning, but a knee-jerk reaction coupled with an almost overwhelming wave of emotions that render you completely vulnerable to yourself. While he could try to do that, he'd certainly need the positive reinforcement of those around him to help him realize that is the truth of it all, and accept it.

At least someone's not a complete cunt about it.

Sometimes you need someone to be a cunt so you can get the fuck over yourself.

[Libertarian California]

At least someone's not a complete cunt about it.

Sometimes you need someone to be a cunt so you can get the fuck over yourself.

What the fuck? How does that make any sense?

[Gauntleted Fist]

You don't have to be smart to be a mathematician or physicist. Or both.

I do if I want to fully understand it, which I don't.

Good thing becoming a mathematician or physicist doesn't require that.

[Condunum]

I've also got a dirty mind. I wouldn't like to put my penis in a place whether other penises have been in before. It seems icky, and relates to the above paragraph that I'm just another dick she's taking and not anything meaningful.

...do you also feel that way about shaking hands with people? "EWWWW YOUR HANDS HAVE TOUCHED HANDS OTHER THAN MINE AT SOME POINT IN YOUR LIFE, YOU HAVE PERMANENT ICKY HAND COOTIES"? Because that's pretty freaking stupid, I have to say.

Before you get into that, you have to first break down the difference in view of the body parts.

And that's an entirely different deal, which probably leads to the same 'based on intuition' flaw.

Sex with someone you care deeply about and who cares deeply about you will be meaningful, no matter what. That meaning isn't invested by the lack of magical penis-cooties, but by the caring.

Once again, irrational fears negate rational thought. His beliefs are most certainly based in irrational fears, and that is what must be addressed, not the belief itself. Deal with the root issue, not the symptom. Otherwise, you're not helping at all.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

...do you also feel that way about shaking hands with people? "EWWWW YOUR HANDS HAVE TOUCHED HANDS OTHER THAN MINE AT SOME POINT IN YOUR LIFE, YOU HAVE PERMANENT ICKY HAND COOTIES"? Because that's pretty freaking stupid, I have to say.

Before you get into that, you have to first break down the difference in view of the body parts.

And that's an entirely different deal, which probably leads to the same 'based on intuition' flaw.

Sex with someone you care deeply about and who cares deeply about you will be meaningful, no matter what. That meaning isn't invested by the lack of magical penis-cooties, but by the caring.

Once again, irrational fears negate rational thought. His beliefs are most certainly based in irrational fears, and that is what must be addressed, not the belief itself. Deal with the root issue, not the symptom. Otherwise, you're not helping at all.

Yeah, the vagina is a lady part, and if anyone touches it, it makes the woman gross and dirty and used and eeeewwwww.

[Condunum]

At least someone's not a complete cunt about it.

Sometimes you need someone to be a cunt so you can get the fuck over yourself.

There's a huge difference between aggressive psychology and 'be[ing] a cunt'.

One will only result in anger and knee-jerk refusal, while the other will actually help.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

Sometimes you need someone to be a cunt so you can get the fuck over yourself.

What the fuck? How does that make any sense?

Cond babying you isn't going to help you grow the fuck up and realize that you are sexist.

[Condunum]

Before you get into that, you have to first break down the difference in view of the body parts.

And that's an entirely different deal, which probably leads to the same 'based on intuition' flaw.


Once again, irrational fears negate rational thought. His beliefs are most certainly based in irrational fears, and that is what must be addressed, not the belief itself. Deal with the root issue, not the symptom. Otherwise, you're not helping at all.

Yeah, the vagina is a lady part, and if anyone touches it, it makes the woman gross and dirty and used and eeeewwwww.

I was meaning that the strong view of 'what has been there before matters and devalues my participation' is the issue.

He shouldn't believe that, but you have to actually dig into the problem to find the source. That's why psychologists have so much more success than people on the internet.

[The Grey Wolf]

I don't really see what's the whole problem is. If a person wants to have sex then that's their business.