Edward Snowden Discussion Thread

[Lemanrussland]

Again, using your legalistic, pedantic nonsense to shut down arguments when backed into a corner. I would love to see you mount your own defense of the Constitutionality of the NSA's actions, outside of "SCOTUS hasn't made a ruling! SCOTUS hasn't made a ruling! SCOTUS hasn't made a ruling!" ad infinitum.

Of course you can't do that, because you can't actually defend your asinine, tyrannical ideas on their own merits.

I'm saying you do not have the right to decide what is and is not illegal. That is not tyranny.

And I'm saying you're hiding behind this legalistic excuse to avoid actually debating me.

The NSA looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, but it's not a duck until SCOTUS rules on it! You use that like it sweeps aside all the evidence pointing to the NSA clearly violating the 4th amendment, like them setting up a fiber-optic splitter in an AT&T facility, and intercepting and recording all of their clients' information, without a warrant to do so.

If you could explain to me why this doesn't contradict the 4th amendment, outside of "SCOTUS didn't rule on it yet!", I'll respect you and your position a whole lot more.

[Des-Bal]

Can you guys not read? My grievance is not with Congress' authority to make laws; my grievance is with the legalistic attitude of NSG and half of America.

You mean the outrageous belief that people should be allowed to do things that aren't illegal?

[Ifreann]

Who do you propose make the law, if not Congress? You?

No where in my post am I questioning Congress' authority to make laws. I'm merely questioning why it isn't wrong, which evidently from his posts is because either SCOTUS hasn't said so or because there are laws that give the power to do so.

You fail to appreciate the difference between "legal" and "wrong".

[Ifreann]

And if he "meets with an unfortunate accident", they're incompetent. If Snowden dies everyone will blame the CIA and his death will be under huge amounts of scrutiny.

Which will accomplish .. what, exactly?

Murder charges, among other things.

The same thing the huge amount of scrutiny the NSA is under will accomplish?

Or more.

Already, the media pundits are trying their best, with a good amount of success, to lay ALL of this on Obama, despite the fact PRISM was started under Bush and is in fact a legacy of even older surveillance programs. You, I, and everyone else who thinks, already knows that if the media hands people some little news bite that "Mr Snowden was killed in a car crash" the herds will buy it completely and never once question what caused such a crash.

Oh please, don't start with this "Wake up sheeple" shit.

[Malvoro]

Oh please, don't start with this "Wake up sheeple" shit.

FYI: The only tinfoil in my house is used to wrap potatoes when I stick em in the oven, which is how I will treat any further responses from someone who fails to admit that a government who performs wrong actions is not above killing the whistleblower. A potato. Dismissing somone's stance as "shit" without any clarification is the end of discussion.

[Occupied Deutschland]

Why not both?

Wait...Scratch that, I don't see how revealing a program like this constitutes levying war on the US or giving aid and comfort to the USs enemies, unless one expands that standard to such a ridiculous degree it becomes meaningless.

Patriot it is.

[The Steel Magnolia]

I find it endlessly amusing that the people bitching most about PRISM know the least about what it actually does.

They're not reading your political theories and My Little Pony erotica, people.

[Lemanrussland]

I find it endlessly amusing that the people bitching most about PRISM know the least about what it actually does.

They're not reading your political theories and My Little Pony erotica, people.

I find it endlessly amusing that all you have to contribute to this thread are smug little quibblings about "how the NSA doesn't want to look at your porn xD".

I don't mean any offense to you, but grow up.

[Qahadim]

I find it endlessly amusing that the people bitching most about PRISM know the least about what it actually does.

They're not reading your political theories and My Little Pony erotica, people.

From what I understand they are only compiling who, when, and how long. Personally, not a big problem with this. However, if they are gathering content of the conversations, whether its my erotica, or just asking my mother how she's doing, it's not their place, or business, to know, and they need to butt out and fuck off.

[Esternial]

Well, now we have another argument when people say America is the land of freedom. I find it quite convenient.

Because tracking this kind of information makes America soooooooooooooo different from the rest of the world

You're arguing beside the point here, lad.

I never said tracking this kind of information is exclusively an American thing.

Calling one's nation the land of freedom kinda is.

[The Steel Magnolia]

I find it endlessly amusing that the people bitching most about PRISM know the least about what it actually does.

They're not reading your political theories and My Little Pony erotica, people.

I find it endlessly amusing that all you have to contribute to this thread are smug little quibblings about "how the NSA doesn't want to look at your porn xD".

I don't mean any offense to you, but grow up.

I fail to see how the NSA is operating outside of its remit, and I fail to see how PRISM is in any way shape or form illegal. The content of communications is protected. Not the fact that the communications were made in the first place.

[The Steel Magnolia]

I find it endlessly amusing that the people bitching most about PRISM know the least about what it actually does.

They're not reading your political theories and My Little Pony erotica, people.

From what I understand they are only compiling who, when, and how long. Personally, not a big problem with this. However, if they are gathering content of the conversations, whether its my erotica, or just asking my mother how she's doing, it's not their place, or business, to know, and they need to butt out and fuck off.

It is absolutely their business when you're talking to foreign POIs. Now, if your mother is a foreign POI, then you can worry. Until then...

[Ifreann]

Oh please, don't start with this "Wake up sheeple" shit.

FYI: The only tinfoil in my house is used to wrap potatoes when I stick em in the oven, which is how I will treat any further responses from someone who fails to admit that a government who performs wrong actions is not above killing the whistleblower.

Whether they're above it or not is beside the point. It would be stupid it kill a whistleblower so prominently in the public eye, because it would be very hard to cover it up with the whole world looking, and that would be murder, which can get you executed in the US.

A potato. Dismissing somone's stance as "shit" without any clarification is the end of discussion.

I'm not sure what more clarification is necessary. Acting like you're the only conscious human being in a world of sheep is a shit position to hold, obviously false, and indicative of having one's head entirely up one's ass.

---

I find it endlessly amusing that the people bitching most about PRISM know the least about what it actually does.

They're not reading your political theories and My Little Pony erotica, people.

Oh, I wouldn't be so sure about that last one.

[Qahadim]

From what I understand they are only compiling who, when, and how long. Personally, not a big problem with this. However, if they are gathering content of the conversations, whether its my erotica, or just asking my mother how she's doing, it's not their place, or business, to know, and they need to butt out and fuck off.

It is absolutely their business when you're talking to foreign POIs. Now, if your mother is a foreign POI, then you can worry. Until then...

Still not. Unless they have reasonable suspicion i'm working with said person to undermine the country. Without that, they have zero grounds for a warrant, much less a search.

[Death Metal]

The way I see it, he just did what he thought was the right thing to do, regardless of loyalty to his country or lack thereof.

So, neither.

[Choronzon]

I find it endlessly amusing that the people bitching most about PRISM know the least about what it actually does.

They're not reading your political theories and My Little Pony erotica, people.

I find it endlessly amusing that all you have to contribute to this thread are smug little quibblings about "how the NSA doesn't want to look at your porn xD".

I don't mean any offense to you, but grow up.

Shes right. Most of the people bitching about PRISM are shrieking about how its illegal (its so not) and revealing that they actually know very little about it.

People should get more informed opinions if they want to be taken seriously.

[Lemanrussland]

I find it endlessly amusing that all you have to contribute to this thread are smug little quibblings about "how the NSA doesn't want to look at your porn xD".

I don't mean any offense to you, but grow up.

I fail to see how the NSA is operating outside of its remit, and I fail to see how PRISM is in any way shape or form illegal. The content of communications is protected. Not the fact that the communications were made in the first place.

There's no way you can claim to know that. Secondly, even if the content of the internet messages are protected, it's intercepted and recorded by the NSA, which constitutes a wiretap, which requires a warrant. There's no way FISA is awarding the NSA warrants for entire swaths of AT&T's subscriber base, and if they are, they're clearly not examining the requests with very much rigor (considering only 0.03 percent of requests have been denied by the FISA court, I wouldn't be surprised it was a rubber stamp court for the most part).

[Occupied Deutschland]

From what I understand they are only compiling who, when, and how long. Personally, not a big problem with this. However, if they are gathering content of the conversations, whether its my erotica, or just asking my mother how she's doing, it's not their place, or business, to know, and they need to butt out and fuck off.

It is absolutely their business when you're talking to foreign POIs. Now, if your mother is a foreign POI, then you can worry. Until then...

Oh, so they're only collecting this data on calls made to foreign countries then, that makes sense in a way.
...
Wait, that isn't what they're doing? Weird.

[The Steel Magnolia]

It is absolutely their business when you're talking to foreign POIs. Now, if your mother is a foreign POI, then you can worry. Until then...

Oh, so they're only collecting this data on calls made to foreign countries then, that makes sense in a way.
...
Wait, that isn't what they're doing? Weird.

It's within several degrees of separation, if I recall correctly.

[Death Metal]

Oh, so they're only collecting this data on calls made to foreign countries then, that makes sense in a way.
...
Wait, that isn't what they're doing? Weird.

It's within several degrees of separation, if I recall correctly.

Six, I think. Though if you're the POI's US contact's neighbor's favorite pizza company manager's hairdresser's nephew, I doubt they'd even waste their time.

[The Steel Magnolia]

I fail to see how the NSA is operating outside of its remit, and I fail to see how PRISM is in any way shape or form illegal. The content of communications is protected. Not the fact that the communications were made in the first place.

There's no way you can claim to know that. Secondly, even if the content of the internet messages are protected, it's intercepted and recorded by the NSA, which constitutes a wiretap, which requires a warrant. There's no way FISA is awarding the NSA warrants for entire swaths of AT&T's subscriber base, and if they are, they're clearly not examining the requests with very much rigor (considering only 0.03 percent of requests have been denied by the FISA court, I wouldn't be surprised it was a rubber stamp court for the most part).

Actually, if I recall correctly, what NSA is doing is ordering Verizon and the like to see who people are calling and emailing. Not the content of those calls themselves.

[Occupied Deutschland]

There's no way you can claim to know that. Secondly, even if the content of the internet messages are protected, it's intercepted and recorded by the NSA, which constitutes a wiretap, which requires a warrant. There's no way FISA is awarding the NSA warrants for entire swaths of AT&T's subscriber base, and if they are, they're clearly not examining the requests with very much rigor (considering only 0.03 percent of requests have been denied by the FISA court, I wouldn't be surprised it was a rubber stamp court for the most part).

Actually, if I recall correctly, what NSA is doing is ordering Verizon and the like to see who people are calling and emailing. Not the content of those calls themselves.

So one has no expectation of privacy when it comes to who they're talking to?

Besides that, who one calls can easily reveal the content of the call. If one calls (or is called by) their gynocologist and then calls planned parenthood the content of what is said is hardly needed.

It opens up so many potentials for abuse it isn't even funny, and from the sound of things the FISA court can't be trusted in the slightest to provide anything but the most cursory of watches over the program.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Actually, if I recall correctly, what NSA is doing is ordering Verizon and the like to see who people are calling and emailing. Not the content of those calls themselves.

So one has no expectation of privacy when it comes to who they're talking to?

Besides that, who one calls can easily reveal the content of the call. If one calls (or is called by) their gynocologist and then calls planned parenthood the content of what is said is hardly needed.

It opens up so many potentials for abuse it isn't even funny, and from the sound of things the FISA court can't be trusted in the slightest to provide anything but the most cursory of watches over the program.

Again, if I recall correctly, the fact that those calls and emails have occurred is not protected by the fourth amendment. You can argue that it should be, but that's not the case currently.

[Lemanrussland]

There's no way you can claim to know that. Secondly, even if the content of the internet messages are protected, it's intercepted and recorded by the NSA, which constitutes a wiretap, which requires a warrant. There's no way FISA is awarding the NSA warrants for entire swaths of AT&T's subscriber base, and if they are, they're clearly not examining the requests with very much rigor (considering only 0.03 percent of requests have been denied by the FISA court, I wouldn't be surprised it was a rubber stamp court for the most part).

Actually, if I recall correctly, what NSA is doing is ordering Verizon and the like to see who people are calling and emailing. Not the content of those calls themselves.

I'm speaking about the behavior of the NSA in general. PRISM is a supplemental program to the virtually unrestricted "data sharing" ISPs conduct with the NSA (at least according to NSA whistleblower William Binney). AT&T gave the NSA unrestricted access to it's data exchanges, and it's a possibility other firms which have done the same.

[Qahadim]

There's no way you can claim to know that. Secondly, even if the content of the internet messages are protected, it's intercepted and recorded by the NSA, which constitutes a wiretap, which requires a warrant. There's no way FISA is awarding the NSA warrants for entire swaths of AT&T's subscriber base, and if they are, they're clearly not examining the requests with very much rigor (considering only 0.03 percent of requests have been denied by the FISA court, I wouldn't be surprised it was a rubber stamp court for the most part).

Actually, if I recall correctly, what NSA is doing is ordering Verizon and the like to see who people are calling and emailing. Not the content of those calls themselves.

See, that's what I understand as well. Where I draw the line, I suppose, is the fact that they are predominately, without any cause, compiling the records of EVERY customer. Not just a small group, or an individual, who is under suspicion, but the entirety of the customer base. It's fishing, and way too generalized. Searches are to be specific, based on the facts that you have already. They are not supposed to be done to find facts you hope might be there.