Edward Snowden Discussion Thread

[Vitaphone Racing]

This is you trying desperately to avoid posting proof which you don't have.

I gave you **facts**.

You haven't given shit, quite frankly. Serious, before we bother to continue, where's your evidence that Ecuador and Venezuela are more democratic than the UK, US and France. I feel like the demand for evidence is extremely one sided here when you were the one who made the opening contention.

[Union of Confederate Socialist Republics]

Can't it be both? Patriator?

That would make an amazingly badass 80's action movie title.

Oh god.

[Kilobugya]

Then what's your proof that Venezuela and Ecuador are definitely more democratic than the UK, USA and France?

I gave you clear examples, focusing on USA (it would require a different analysis for each of those countries) and I can give you more : institutional bipartism (which is a major flaw), widespread government surveillance, indefinite detention with no trial (Guantanamo), major role of corporations in financing electoral campaign, rigged elections like the 2000 ones, low turnout and political involvement of the population, obsoleted Constitution that doesn't contain modern democratic rights such as recall referendum or direct popular initiative, that doesn't contain rights required for a working democracy like the right to universal education, political prisonners like Leonard Peletier or Mumia Abu-Jamal, ...

On the other hand, in Ecuador and Venezuela, countries to which I went more than once, they have a working multiparty democracy, certified fair by international observers, with high turnout, high level of political involvement of the population, Constitutions containing all the modern rights, and governments that keep being massively reelected despite the vast majority of the media being in the hand of opposition, because the governments there actually perform what they were elected to do, like lowering poverty, providing education and healthcare, building infrastructures, ...

[Vitaphone Racing]

Then what's your proof that Venezuela and Ecuador are definitely more democratic than the UK, USA and France?

I gave you clear examples, focusing on USA (it would require a different analysis for each of those countries) and I can give you more : institutional bipartism (which is a major flaw), widespread government surveillance, indefinite detention with no trial (Guantanamo), major role of corporations in financing electoral campaign, rigged elections like the 2000 ones, low turnout and political involvement of the population, obsoleted Constitution that doesn't contain modern democratic rights such as recall referendum or direct popular initiative, that doesn't contain rights required for a working democracy like the right to universal education, political prisonners like Leonard Peletier or Mumia Abu-Jamal, ...

On the other hand, in Ecuador and Venezuela, countries to which I went more than once, they have a working multiparty democracy, certified fair by international observers, with high turnout, high level of political involvement of the population, Constitutions containing all the modern rights, and governments that keep being massively reelected despite the vast majority of the media being in the hand of opposition, because the governments there actually perform what they were elected to do, like lowering poverty, providing education and healthcare, building infrastructures, ...

So basically, you just provided the exact same sort of evidence as provided by Freedom House and the Economist except they don't qualify as sources but your information does. Are you aware of how hypocritical you sound right now?

[Norstal]

I find it funny that there are people who are testing NSA's surveillance system by saying key words that would've catch them over Skype or phones or etc, and yet doesn't realize that the fact they're not in a jail cell yet means that the surveillance system works.

Don't get me wrong, intrusive surveillance is unethical. But this should've been a real wake up call that this whole thing is overblown.

[European Prussia]

go snowdon go

[Abatael]

He's went to China, Russia, then he was going to go to Cuba, and I believe he is going to go to South America, perhaps Venezuela. He is not a patriot.

[Gravlen]

No. The Economist Intelligence Unit Democracy Index 2010 says...

Sure, "The economist" now. Is it a contest of who will provide the most possible biased "authority" and not have a single fact to back their claim ?

Mhm. No substantial objections I see, nor any proper challenges to the authority of the source besides a huff.

So, we have Freedom House, The Economist Intelligence Unit... Let's then go to the Democracy Ranking Association (Austria):

UK #13
US #15
France #17
Ecuador #52
Venezuela #82

What about Polity, which classifies the UK and US as Full democracies, France as Democracy, while Ecuador and Venezuela are classified as Open anocracy?

Unified Democracy scores show the UK, US and France well above Ecuador and Venezuela.


The Worldwide Governance Indicators (WGI) project?

Voice and Accountability (VA)¹

UNITED KINGDOM 92.0 +1.27 0.15
FRANCE 88.7 +1.20 0.15
UNITED STATES 85.9 +1.13 0.14
ECUADOR 37.6 -0.31 0.12
VENEZUELA, RB 24.4 -0.92 0.11

So... All indicators show you're wrong. You point to some isolated events, but fail to show systematic problems. All you have is... Well, you don't really have anything.




¹
Voice and Accountability (VA) – capturing perceptions of the extent to which a country's citizens are able to participate in selecting their government, as well as freedom of expression, freedom of association, and a free media.

[Ifreann]

He's went to China, Russia, then he was going to go to Cuba, and I believe he is going to go to South America, perhaps Venezuela. He is not a patriot.

Because of his travel plans?

[Wamitoria]

He's went to China, Russia, then he was going to go to Cuba, and I believe he is going to go to South America, perhaps Venezuela. He is not a patriot.

Because of his travel plans?

Anyone who has contact with China is a traitor. Especially people who buy their American flags.

[Abatael]

He's went to China, Russia, then he was going to go to Cuba, and I believe he is going to go to South America, perhaps Venezuela. He is not a patriot.

Because of his travel plans?

He's gone to like all of our enemy nations. (And I am aware they are not enemies we are at war with; it is meant as nations we don't really like.) So that, in addition to him being a traitor, would not make him a patriot.

[Ifreann]

Because of his travel plans?

He's gone to like all of our enemy nations. (And I am aware they are not enemies we are at war with; it is meant as nations we don't really like.) So that, in addition to him being a traitor, would not make him a patriot.

So, you seriously think that a patriot wouldn't go to a country on less than friendly terms with their own country?

[Rio Cana]

American retirees and other foreign retirees love Ecuador.

Watch this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jia-KNVfHRI

An Ecuadorian comments that rich foreigners are causing prices to increase ;for the ordinary Ecuadorians who are not rich.
Watch this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fK35mw-Ta4g

[Welsh Cowboy]

He's gone to like all of our enemy nations. (And I am aware they are not enemies we are at war with; it is meant as nations we don't really like.) So that, in addition to him being a traitor, would not make him a patriot.

So, you seriously think that a patriot wouldn't go to a country on less than friendly terms with their own country?

It decreases his credibility as a pure-motived whistleblower.

EDIT for clarity

[Occupied Deutschland]

Because of his travel plans?

He's gone to like all of our enemy nations. (And I am aware they are not enemies we are at war with; it is meant as nations we don't really like.) So that, in addition to him being a traitor, would not make him a patriot.

I would like to point you towards colonists bargaining with France (whom they had been in open war with not two decades before) during the American Revolution. Because they were 'patriots' (and also traitors, interestingly).

All I've seen so far is claims he's maybe shared information with these people. I'd like some proof of this first. One would think, were he a person of interest information/espionage wise to China they wouldn't have let him leave they would STILL be interrogating him.

[Abatael]

He's gone to like all of our enemy nations. (And I am aware they are not enemies we are at war with; it is meant as nations we don't really like.) So that, in addition to him being a traitor, would not make him a patriot.

So, you seriously think that a patriot wouldn't go to a country on less than friendly terms with their own country?

You must have overlooked the underlined segment.

[Ifreann]

So, you seriously think that a patriot wouldn't go to a country on less than friendly terms with their own country?

You must have overlooked the underlined segment.

I saw it. I then asked a clarifying question. One you haven't answered.

[Abatael]

You must have overlooked the underlined segment.

I saw it. I then asked a clarifying question. One you haven't answered.

That post is quite clear. If you can't understand something that clear, then why do you even bother appearing in this thread?

[Ifreann]

I saw it. I then asked a clarifying question. One you haven't answered.

That post is quite clear.

It is not. Do you only consider travel plans when determining when someone is a patriot or not when they are already a traitor in your opinion? Or do you apply that standard to all people?

If you can't understand something that clear, then why do you even bother appearing in this thread?

Court order.

[Abatael]

That post is quite clear.

It is not. Do you only consider travel plans when determining when someone is a patriot or not when they are already a traitor in your opinion? Or do you apply that standard to all people?

If you can't understand something that clear, then why do you even bother appearing in this thread?

Court order.

And if you're asking about what I consider makes a patriot in relation to a traitor, I don't see why that matters. It would be a case-by-case basis.

If, for example, someone assassinated the President and then went onto say, "I hate the U.S.A.!" and burns a the U.S. flag, I would not consider him a patriot even though he did not leave the country.

[Sibirsky]

He's went to China, Russia, then he was going to go to Cuba, and I believe he is going to go to South America, perhaps Venezuela. He is not a patriot.

Revealing the NSA's unconstitutional spying on all Americans was an act of patriotism.

[Sibirsky]

Because of his travel plans?

He's gone to like all of our enemy nations. (And I am aware they are not enemies we are at war with; it is meant as nations we don't really like.) So that, in addition to him being a traitor, would not make him a patriot.

[Abatael]

He's went to China, Russia, then he was going to go to Cuba, and I believe he is going to go to South America, perhaps Venezuela. He is not a patriot.

Revealing the NSA's unconstitutional spying on all Americans was an act of patriotism.

No. It was treason, and he should arrested and executed for it.

[Abatael]

He's gone to like all of our enemy nations. (And I am aware they are not enemies we are at war with; it is meant as nations we don't really like.) So that, in addition to him being a traitor, would not make him a patriot.

Obama has the right idea: He has made him a criminal, and it is only a matter of time before we apprehend the scum and execute him for his crimes against the nation.

[Sibirsky]

Revealing the NSA's unconstitutional spying on all Americans was an act of patriotism.

No. It was treason, and he should arrested and executed for it.

That's why the government is charging him with treason.

Wait a minute...

Are the American people now the enemy of the US government? Is that your claim?