Edward Snowden Discussion Thread

[The Parkus Empire]

The concern is that if the NSA plans to track terrorists, then the terrorists now know it's being done, and also have a good idea how it's done.

...so

It's going to change how they function. What if you're tracking a mofo who is leading you to a big ring? Now they've gone, "Oh shit," and stopped communicating with him in the same way, or maybe stopped altogether.

[Caninope]

Then let's move to this.

First, the NSA is not "stalking" people. That's a specific legal term. Secondly, why? Why should an intelligence agency make it clear that it's investigating someone?

It's a question of warrantless investigation, really.

Yes, I know. Such warrantless investigation is perfectly valid when applied to people outside American borders, but far murkier when inside American borders, particularly with certain forms of investigation.

All the same, if such a system is set up with the necessary internal auditing processes as well as input and oversight from the courts and Congress, I don't see why it couldn't be a secret system*.

*I'm not actually passing judgement on PRISM here.

[Socialist EU]

It's a question of warrantless investigation, really.

Yes, I know. Such warrantless investigation is perfectly valid when applied to people outside American borders, but far murkier when inside American borders, particularly with certain forms of investigation.

All the same, if such a system is set up with the necessary internal auditing processes as well as input and oversight from the courts and Congress, I don't see why it couldn't be a secret system*.

*I'm not actually passing judgement on PRISM here.

Well, that was a convincing argument in favour of secretly looking at private emails, ect outside the US.

[Ujh Uhj]

Translation: I'm sorry, I didn't know I had to use the correct meaning of words around you.

I wasn't using an incorrect meaning. I was using hyperbole, even though not really, because it's pretty damn close to stalking. Chill.

There's yet to be a court rulings against the program

That makes it okay?

from what little I've read, the programs have been operating within the purview of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, given (at least implicitly) a constitutional blessing, at least until a higher court rules otherwise.

Meh. Still don't think it's remotely okay.

Done through FISA and USA PATRIOT Act.

Well both of those are shit. I was wrong in that instance (and I apologize) but I still disagree with all of the programs. Sure, it was "technically" legal (kind of?) but I think what Snowden did was a service to humanity.

[Caninope]

No, but I was pointing out that not all government records need to be made public.

I would argue that national security should be prioritized overal personal records in being kept secret, and it seems that you implicitly accept the premise that at least some government records should be kept secret.

Our email records ect should be kept secret from prying eyes too!

According to administration officials, email data is not just pried through, willy nilly.

[Socialist EU]

Translation: I'm sorry, I didn't know I had to use the correct meaning of words around you.

I wasn't using an incorrect meaning. I was using hyperbole, even though not really, because it's pretty damn close to stalking. Chill.

There's yet to be a court rulings against the program

That makes it okay?

from what little I've read, the programs have been operating within the purview of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, given (at least implicitly) a constitutional blessing, at least until a higher court rules otherwise.

Meh. Still don't think it's remotely okay.

Or at least authorize it through congress.

Done through FISA and USA PATRIOT Act.

Well both of those are shit. I was wrong in that instance (and I apologize) but I still disagree with all of the programs. Sure, it was "technically" legal (kind of?) but I think what Snowden did was a service to humanity.[/quote]

I'm inclined to agree with you. The sheer arrogance of Washington/the NSA is astounding.

[Socialist EU]

Our email records ect should be kept secret from prying eyes too!

According to administration officials, email data is not just pried through, willy nilly.

Sure, I believe/trust you.

[Caninope]

That makes it okay?

Legally? Yeah, pretty much.

Done through FISA and USA PATRIOT Act.

Well both of those are shit.

OK?

I was wrong in that instance (and I apologize) but I still disagree with all of the programs. Sure, it was "technically" legal (kind of?) but I think what Snowden did was a service to humanity.

I think what Snowden did threw a monkey wrench at the US government's ability to hand electronic surveillance and signals intelligence in an increasingly digital world while simultaneously throwing a monkey wrench into US foreign relations.

[The Parkus Empire]

Yes, I know. Such warrantless investigation is perfectly valid when applied to people outside American borders, but far murkier when inside American borders, particularly with certain forms of investigation.

All the same, if such a system is set up with the necessary internal auditing processes as well as input and oversight from the courts and Congress, I don't see why it couldn't be a secret system*.

*I'm not actually passing judgement on PRISM here.

But what are they doing? Looking through millions of call logs for a lead? I doubt it.

Snowden maintains it's about U.S. citizens having their privacy invaded by those who work the program. Whether that's actually happening is something that might take time to know (the idea is not crazy). Or we may never know.

[Caninope]

According to administration officials, email data is not just pried through, willy nilly.

Sure, I believe/trust you.

I haven't been following the news, and I intend to catch up on this at some point.

I'm just telling you what administration officials have claimed.

[Caninope]

But what are they doing? Looking through millions of call logs for a lead? I doubt it.

Given computing power and the increasing ability to sort and visualize data, those call logs could be useful to verify leads or even create leads. I'm not sure though; I've neither followed this nor served in the NSA.

Snowden maintains it's about U.S. citizens having their privacy invaded by those who work the program. Whether that's actually happening is something that might take time to know (the idea is not crazy). Or we may never know.

That is correct. This issue does bring up real privacy concerns while also bringing up the also real concerns of the US government's ability to gather intelligence today.

[Conserative Morality]

Lol, 'most people'?

Most Catholics? I don't know of many catholic breakoff sects that insist that the bible is not to be translated or read by laymen.

..and there are great similarities. Freedom of information is an end good, blind obeisance to ruling power isn't.

It's funny how it's only the people who respect the law that allow you to live in such a stable society, and yet in the end, you accuse them of blind obeisance to ruling power.

Freedom of information is not an end good. Information can be good, or it can be bad. It depends on the information. Details on US troop movements being distributed amongst the population is almost certainly a bad thing, unless you think that the general population is better at keeping secrets than a small group of professionals.

[Conserative Morality]

..given it entails dilution of power, yes.

If more people had the power to kill, that would be a good thing? If more people could kill others, in greater numbers, easier, that would be a good thing because it would dilute the power of others who could kill?

[Lemanrussland]

But what are they doing? Looking through millions of call logs for a lead? I doubt it.

Given computing power and the increasing ability to sort and visualize data, those call logs could be useful to verify leads or even create leads. I'm not sure though; I've neither followed this nor served in the NSA.

Snowden maintains it's about U.S. citizens having their privacy invaded by those who work the program. Whether that's actually happening is something that might take time to know (the idea is not crazy). Or we may never know.

That is correct. This issue does bring up real privacy concerns while also bringing up the also real concerns of the US government's ability to gather intelligence today.

The main issue, in my opinion, surrounds the extent of the collection.

All the evidence points to systematic overcollection of American citizen's data, the system they're using sort of necessitates that they perform broad collection. They have to regularly purge the data of US citizens from their databases (some of the rules surrounding this which has been exposed are disturbing, for example if you encrypt your data they hold onto it, regardless of suspicion). The potential for abuse of this kind of aggregated, easily mineable data is serious.

This is also of course assuming that the FISA court, whose oversight had been significantly loosened in 2008, when the NSA went back to following the FISA process, is actually rigorous and not just a rubber stamp court, or that it's not awarding overly broad warrants (for example, on thousands of Americans at once). That is also a potential issue.

[New Chalcedon]

With all respect to your source, I must remind you that the nature of the interrelationship between the US government and favoured corporations has grown far more intertwined in recent years. While your professor may have been right for the time he worked at the CIA, things change - and many aspects of governance have changed.

My professor (who's a she, btw) left the CIA in 2006, and is quite critical of the influence of corporations in the federal government, but largely credits the IC for its insulation (although she noted that's had its own downside, particularly the state centric viewpoints the CIA adhered to in the 90s).

Hmmm....interesting. So what do ex-CIA agents do? Department of State, academia, what?

And so Australian companies should just wait and continue to be at a competitive disadvantage while we wait for the NSA to clean house?

No.

Or we could recognize the improbability of the situation and not worry about it, because there are people paid by the American tax payer to worry about it for us.

Correction, mi amigo: they're being paid by the American tax-payer to worry about it for you. Not for us, the Australian people - and let's face it, most bureaucrats are going to look the other way from practices that give US firms a competitive advantage, no matter how dubious the ethics behind them.

So classified that the Senate Homeland Security Committee was kept in the dark about key aspects of PRISM. That's "classified" all right.

Yes. It's classified. However, it's not off the books. There was oversight and record keeping, both by the NSA and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, not to mention the DNI and his staff as well as the Attorney General and the DOJ. Furthermore, key members of Congress (I'm thinking the Senate Intelligence Committee and House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence) might have been informed, but I don't know. Nonetheless, even if the were briefed on the existence of the program, it is not necessarily their prerogative to interfere with the program, given the berth that the bureaucracy tries to keep from Congress.

"Oversight" implies the ability to intervene - as is the legislature's right when they believe that any part of the executive branch has overstepped certain bounds. More to the point, I find it troubling that according to the Ranking Member of the Senate Homeland Security Committee, she (Susan Collins, one of the few Republican Senators I actually have some respect for) wasn't informed. Also, the fact that Jim Clapper admitted to giving the "least untruthful" answer he could to Congress raises more red flags about the levels of oversight at work.

As a side note - I find it particularly hilarious that the judge who signed the secret orders allowing the massive data hauls was none other than Judge Robert Vinson, who is on record describing Obamacare as a massive governmental overreach. Oh, the irony....

I don't really see the irony. Constitutional challenges to either PRISM or Obamacare come from completely different parts of the Constitution, but whatever.

It's governmental intrusion into the citizenry's private lives on a size, scale and scope entirely larger than Obamacare, yet somehow it's not "over-reach", while Obamacare was. That's the irony at work here, at least in my opinion.

[New Chalcedon]

Well then, what's this "China can force the US to pay its debt" stuff?

Nonsensical ramblings by people ignorant of the actual situation.

So, NSG as usual.

It is the zombie lie that just won't die - the idea that somehow, someway, China can "force" the US into bankruptcy at the drop of a hat.

It's ridiculous to anyone who's done first-year macro, of course - but most people haven't, and shysters like the Heritage Foundation can wave a whole lot of zeroes in front of their faces to inspire fear and stampedes.

[Lemanrussland]

Given computing power and the increasing ability to sort and visualize data, those call logs could be useful to verify leads or even create leads. I'm not sure though; I've neither followed this nor served in the NSA.


That is correct. This issue does bring up real privacy concerns while also bringing up the also real concerns of the US government's ability to gather intelligence today.

The main issue, in my opinion, surrounds the extent of the collection.

All the evidence points to systematic overcollection of American citizen's data, the system they're using sort of necessitates that they perform broad collection. They have to regularly purge the data of US citizens from their databases (some of the rules surrounding this which has been exposed are disturbing, for example if you encrypt your data they hold onto it, regardless of suspicion). The potential for abuse of this kind of aggregated, easily mineable data is serious.

This is also of course assuming that the FISA court, whose oversight had been significantly loosened in 2008, when the NSA went back to following the FISA process, is actually rigorous and not just a rubber stamp court, or that it's not awarding overly broad warrants (for example, on thousands of Americans at once). That is also a potential issue.

There's also a trust issue, seeing as James Clapper basically lied under oath to Cogress when he said "No sir, not wittingly anyway" in response to "Does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions of Americans?". His defense that it wasn't collection until the NSA actually looked at the data is just a disingenuous, semantic tap dance around the question.

[The Steel Magnolia]

No, but I was pointing out that not all government records need to be made public.

I would argue that national security should be prioritized overal personal records in being kept secret, and it seems that you implicitly accept the premise that at least some government records should be kept secret.

Our email records ect should be kept secret from prying eyes too!

Email RECORDS aren't protected by the fourth amendment. Emails themselves are.

[Gravlen]

His passport has been revoked. Ecuador's foreign minister has confirmed that he has asked Ecuador for asylum.

[Lemanrussland]

Our email records ect should be kept secret from prying eyes too!

Email RECORDS aren't protected by the fourth amendment. Emails themselves are.

They are collecting the actual content of the emails, not just the metadata, so your point (one which you've posted what seems like ten times) is irrelevant.

[Caninope]

Hmmm....interesting. So what do ex-CIA agents do? Department of State, academia, what?

Well, I shall concede that some go into the private sector, doing some intelligence analysis, security work, technology work, etc. but this is hardly a "revolving door" situation; this is much more of a "pre-retirement" job sort of deal rather than a revolving door. A lot who leave the CIA before retirement age go into academia, think tanks, related agencies. Finally, she said that a lot of people who left were just going into retirement. She made it sound as if people stayed with the CIA for long periods of time, and if they left, they left. She made it sound more like a fire exit than a revolving door.

Correction, mi amigo: they're being paid by the American tax-payer to worry about it for you. Not for us, the Australian people - and let's face it, most bureaucrats are going to look the other way from practices that give US firms a competitive advantage, no matter how dubious the ethics behind them.

Bureaucrats inside the intelligence community are not going to do that; intelligence is, to put it lightly, serious business.

"Oversight" implies the ability to intervene - as is the legislature's right when they believe that any part of the executive branch has overstepped certain bounds. More to the point, I find it troubling that according to the Ranking Member of the Senate Homeland Security Committee, she (Susan Collins, one of the few Republican Senators I actually have some respect for) wasn't informed. Also, the fact that Jim Clapper admitted to giving the "least untruthful" answer he could to Congress raises more red flags about the levels of oversight at work.

These are definitely things that should be investigated, I agree.

It's governmental intrusion into the citizenry's private lives on a size, scale and scope entirely larger than Obamacare, yet somehow it's not "over-reach", while Obamacare was. That's the irony at work here, at least in my opinion.

Well, not so to me, but I guess it's because I'm a bit of a con-law nerd at times.

[Caninope]

Nonsensical ramblings by people ignorant of the actual situation.

So, NSG as usual.

It is the zombie lie that just won't die - the idea that somehow, someway, China can "force" the US into bankruptcy at the drop of a hat.

It's ridiculous to anyone who's done first-year macro, of course - but most people haven't, and shysters like the Heritage Foundation can wave a whole lot of zeroes in front of their faces to inspire fear and stampedes.

The lie bothers me so, though.

It's also patently ridiculous when you think about how bonds actually work.

[Maurepas]

...so

It's going to change how they function. What if you're tracking a mofo who is leading you to a big ring? Now they've gone, "Oh shit," and stopped communicating with him in the same way, or maybe stopped altogether.

Actually I'm sure the "terrorists" already knew that, already knew how, and so did the American people, who were already okay with it.

The big reveal was really that we were employing the same tactics against our own populace, and blowing millions on a server farm to hold it.

[Maurepas]

His passport has been revoked. Ecuador's foreign minister has confirmed that he has asked Ecuador for asylum.

http://news.yahoo.com/former-nsa-contra ... 43121.html

Linky if needed. He's also considering Moscow or Cuba.

[Farnhamia]

His passport has been revoked. Ecuador's foreign minister has confirmed that he has asked Ecuador for asylum.

http://news.yahoo.com/former-nsa-contra ... 43121.html

Linky if needed. He's also considering Moscow or Cuba.

Linky: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/24/world ... ay.html?hp