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Edward Snowden Discussion Thread

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Caninope
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Postby Caninope » Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:43 am

New Chalcedon wrote:With all respect to your source, I must remind you that the nature of the interrelationship between the US government and favoured corporations has grown far more intertwined in recent years. While your professor may have been right for the time he worked at the CIA, things change - and many aspects of governance have changed.

My professor (who's a she, btw) left the CIA in 2006, and is quite critical of the influence of corporations in the federal government, but largely credits the IC for its insulation (although she noted that's had its own downside, particularly the state centric viewpoints the CIA adhered to in the 90s).

And so Australian companies should just wait and continue to be at a competitive disadvantage while we wait for the NSA to clean house?

No.

Or we could recognize the improbability of the situation and not worry about it, because there are people paid by the American tax payer to worry about it for us.

So classified that the Senate Homeland Security Committee was kept in the dark about key aspects of PRISM. That's "classified" all right.

Yes. It's classified. However, it's not off the books. There was oversight and record keeping, both by the NSA and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, not to mention the DNI and his staff as well as the Attorney General and the DOJ. Furthermore, key members of Congress (I'm thinking the Senate Intelligence Committee and House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence) might have been informed, but I don't know. Nonetheless, even if the were briefed on the existence of the program, it is not necessarily their prerogative to interfere with the program, given the berth that the bureaucracy tries to keep from Congress.

As a side note - I find it particularly hilarious that the judge who signed the secret orders allowing the massive data hauls was none other than Judge Robert Vinson, who is on record describing Obamacare as a massive governmental overreach. Oh, the irony....

I don't really see the irony. Constitutional challenges to either PRISM or Obamacare come from completely different parts of the Constitution, but whatever.
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Haktiva
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Postby Haktiva » Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:59 am

I heard he's heading to Moscow now. That should be interesting. At least the petition for his pardon got enough signatures(whatever good that will do)
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Postby Norstal » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:02 pm

Haktiva wrote:I heard he's heading to Moscow now. That should be interesting. At least the petition for his pardon got enough signatures(whatever good that will do)

He's safe in HK. They already said they wouldn't, or rather they can't, extradite him. So, why...

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/ ... 3-07-04-11

However, Russia's ITAR-Tass news agency cited an unidentified Aeroflot official as saying Snowden would fly from Moscow to Cuba on Monday and then on to Caracas, Venezuela.


This is too fucking suspicious.
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Xanixi
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Postby Xanixi » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:13 pm

The Steel Magnolia wrote:
Golambia wrote:Yes they are and China bought them because it helps their economy.

Also America actually owes China very little.


What was that figure again, 76% of the United States' debt is owed to the United States? Something like that. China has around 8%, if I recall correctly.


Well then, what's this "China can force the US to pay its debt" stuff?
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Caninope
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Postby Caninope » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:15 pm

Xanixi wrote:
The Steel Magnolia wrote:
What was that figure again, 76% of the United States' debt is owed to the United States? Something like that. China has around 8%, if I recall correctly.


Well then, what's this "China can force the US to pay its debt" stuff?

Nonsensical ramblings by people ignorant of the actual situation.

So, NSG as usual.
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Agritum wrote:Arg, Caninope is Captain America under disguise. Everyone knows it.
Frisivisia wrote:
Me wrote:Just don't. It'll get you a whole lot further in life if you come to realize you're not the smartest guy in the room, even if you probably are.

Because Caninope may be in that room with you.
Nightkill the Emperor wrote:Thankfully, we have you and EM to guide us to wisdom and truth, holy one. :p
Norstal wrote:What I am saying of course is that we should clone Caninope.

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Britanno
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Postby Britanno » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:16 pm

Just saw he's asked Ecuador for asylum...
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Napkiraly
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Postby Napkiraly » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:17 pm

Sasha Grey wants me join the NSA.

I'm sold. I now support PRISM.

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SaorAlba
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Postby SaorAlba » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:27 pm

So has he done the "fist fight on top of a train " scene yet?
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Socialist EU
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Postby Socialist EU » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:44 pm

SaorAlba wrote:So has he done the "fist fight on top of a train " scene yet?


Did Jason Bourne fight on top of a train?

:lol:
Last edited by Socialist EU on Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Ujh Uhj
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Postby Ujh Uhj » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:44 pm

Can someone please explain to me how what Snowden did was bad? If the government is a public entity, shouldn't its records be public? Even if they're illegal? Basically all he was doing was revealing it, pissing off some congresspeople, and then leaving. I say he's a hero.

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Caninope
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Postby Caninope » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:46 pm

Ujh Uhj wrote:Can someone please explain to me how what Snowden did was bad? If the government is a public entity, shouldn't its records be public?

No.

Well, that was easy.
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Agritum wrote:Arg, Caninope is Captain America under disguise. Everyone knows it.
Frisivisia wrote:
Me wrote:Just don't. It'll get you a whole lot further in life if you come to realize you're not the smartest guy in the room, even if you probably are.

Because Caninope may be in that room with you.
Nightkill the Emperor wrote:Thankfully, we have you and EM to guide us to wisdom and truth, holy one. :p
Norstal wrote:What I am saying of course is that we should clone Caninope.

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Socialist EU
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Postby Socialist EU » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:48 pm

Caninope wrote:
Ujh Uhj wrote:Can someone please explain to me how what Snowden did was bad? If the government is a public entity, shouldn't its records be public?

No.

Well, that was easy.


Politics of fear. :roll:
Egypt:
Spontaneous protests will not produce organisation, it is more likely to lead to an oppressive clampdown! There needs to be a long-term strategy to build the left towards..
-mass parties of the left
-mass trade unions
-mass left-wing publications

Europe
For a United socialist Europe under democratic working class rule.
For the unity of the working class across Europe and eventually* take power.
*'Towards a communist party of the EU'

Britain
For a voluntary federated democratic republic.

Scotland
Abstain on independence referendum, Salmond wants to keep within the union!

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Caninope
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Postby Caninope » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:51 pm

Socialist EU wrote:
Caninope wrote:No.

Well, that was easy.


Politics of fear. :roll:

Or we could recognize that some government records should be kept private. For instance, I don't want the Social Security Administration to make all their records public. That would be bad for me.
I'm the Pope
Secretly CIA interns stomping out negative views of the US
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Agritum wrote:Arg, Caninope is Captain America under disguise. Everyone knows it.
Frisivisia wrote:
Me wrote:Just don't. It'll get you a whole lot further in life if you come to realize you're not the smartest guy in the room, even if you probably are.

Because Caninope may be in that room with you.
Nightkill the Emperor wrote:Thankfully, we have you and EM to guide us to wisdom and truth, holy one. :p
Norstal wrote:What I am saying of course is that we should clone Caninope.

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Socialist EU
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Postby Socialist EU » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:55 pm

Caninope wrote:
Socialist EU wrote:
Politics of fear. :roll:

Or we could recognize that some government records should be kept private. For instance, I don't want the Social Security Administration to make all their records public. That would be bad for me.


Did Ed Snowwden reveal Social Security information, shit. :eek:
Egypt:
Spontaneous protests will not produce organisation, it is more likely to lead to an oppressive clampdown! There needs to be a long-term strategy to build the left towards..
-mass parties of the left
-mass trade unions
-mass left-wing publications

Europe
For a United socialist Europe under democratic working class rule.
For the unity of the working class across Europe and eventually* take power.
*'Towards a communist party of the EU'

Britain
For a voluntary federated democratic republic.

Scotland
Abstain on independence referendum, Salmond wants to keep within the union!

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Ujh Uhj
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Postby Ujh Uhj » Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:01 pm

Caninope wrote:
Socialist EU wrote:
Politics of fear. :roll:

Or we could recognize that some government records should be kept private. For instance, I don't want the Social Security Administration to make all their records public. That would be bad for me.

I misspoke; that was meant to be taken as, for example, records that the NSA is actually stalking you. Not your personal information. Sorry about the mix-up.

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Caninope
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Postby Caninope » Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:01 pm

Socialist EU wrote:
Caninope wrote:Or we could recognize that some government records should be kept private. For instance, I don't want the Social Security Administration to make all their records public. That would be bad for me.


Did Ed Snowwden reveal Social Security information, shit. :eek:

No, but I was pointing out that not all government records need to be made public.

I would argue that national security should be prioritized overal personal records in being kept secret, and it seems that you implicitly accept the premise that at least some government records should be kept secret.
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Agritum wrote:Arg, Caninope is Captain America under disguise. Everyone knows it.
Frisivisia wrote:
Me wrote:Just don't. It'll get you a whole lot further in life if you come to realize you're not the smartest guy in the room, even if you probably are.

Because Caninope may be in that room with you.
Nightkill the Emperor wrote:Thankfully, we have you and EM to guide us to wisdom and truth, holy one. :p
Norstal wrote:What I am saying of course is that we should clone Caninope.

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Caninope
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Postby Caninope » Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:02 pm

Ujh Uhj wrote:
Caninope wrote:Or we could recognize that some government records should be kept private. For instance, I don't want the Social Security Administration to make all their records public. That would be bad for me.

I misspoke; that was meant to be taken as, for example, records that the NSA is actually stalking you. Not your personal information. Sorry about the mix-up.

Then let's move to this.

First, the NSA is not "stalking" people. That's a specific legal term. Secondly, why? Why should an intelligence agency make it clear that it's investigating someone?
I'm the Pope
Secretly CIA interns stomping out negative views of the US
Türkçe öğreniyorum ama zorluk var.
Winner, Silver Medal for Debating
Co-Winner, Bronze Medal for Posting
Co-Winner, Zooke Goodwill Award

Agritum wrote:Arg, Caninope is Captain America under disguise. Everyone knows it.
Frisivisia wrote:
Me wrote:Just don't. It'll get you a whole lot further in life if you come to realize you're not the smartest guy in the room, even if you probably are.

Because Caninope may be in that room with you.
Nightkill the Emperor wrote:Thankfully, we have you and EM to guide us to wisdom and truth, holy one. :p
Norstal wrote:What I am saying of course is that we should clone Caninope.

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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:03 pm

Ujh Uhj wrote:Can someone please explain to me how what Snowden did was bad? If the government is a public entity, shouldn't its records be public? Even if they're illegal? Basically all he was doing was revealing it, pissing off some congresspeople, and then leaving. I say he's a hero.

No, not all government records should be public. OKAY GUIZE WE HAVE FOUND BIN LADEN AND WILL WHACK HIM TOMORROW!!11
Last edited by The Parkus Empire on Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:06 pm

Ujh Uhj wrote:
Caninope wrote:Or we could recognize that some government records should be kept private. For instance, I don't want the Social Security Administration to make all their records public. That would be bad for me.

I misspoke; that was meant to be taken as, for example, records that the NSA is actually stalking you. Not your personal information. Sorry about the mix-up.

The concern is that if the NSA plans to track terrorists, then the terrorists now know it's being done, and also have a good idea how it's done.
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Ujh Uhj
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Postby Ujh Uhj » Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:06 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Ujh Uhj wrote:Can someone please explain to me how what Snowden did was bad? If the government is a public entity, shouldn't its records be public? Even if they're illegal? Basically all he was doing was revealing it, pissing off some congresspeople, and then leaving. I say he's a hero.

No, not all government records should be public. OKAY GUIZE WE HAVE FOUND BIN LADEN AND WILL WHACK HIM TOMORROW!!11

Read my above post plz

Caninope wrote:
Ujh Uhj wrote:I misspoke; that was meant to be taken as, for example, records that the NSA is actually stalking you. Not your personal information. Sorry about the mix-up.

Then let's move to this.

First, the NSA is not "stalking" people. That's a specific legal term. Secondly, why? Why should an intelligence agency make it clear that it's investigating someone?

Damn, didn't know I had to use the correct legalspeak around you. And, fourth amendment cuz. Or at least authorize it through congress.

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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:07 pm

Caninope wrote:
Ujh Uhj wrote:I misspoke; that was meant to be taken as, for example, records that the NSA is actually stalking you. Not your personal information. Sorry about the mix-up.

Then let's move to this.

First, the NSA is not "stalking" people. That's a specific legal term. Secondly, why? Why should an intelligence agency make it clear that it's investigating someone?

It's a question of warrantless investigation, really.
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Ujh Uhj
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Postby Ujh Uhj » Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:07 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Ujh Uhj wrote:I misspoke; that was meant to be taken as, for example, records that the NSA is actually stalking you. Not your personal information. Sorry about the mix-up.

The concern is that if the NSA plans to track terrorists, then the terrorists now know it's being done, and also have a good idea how it's done.

...so

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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:08 pm

Ujh Uhj wrote: at least authorize it through congress.

It was authorized through congress.
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Caninope
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Postby Caninope » Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:09 pm

Ujh Uhj wrote:Damn, didn't know I had to use the correct legalspeak around you.

Translation: I'm sorry, I didn't know I had to use the correct meaning of words around you.

And, fourth amendment cuz.

OK? There's yet to be a court rulings against the program, and from what little I've read, the programs have been operating within the purview of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, given (at least implicitly) a constitutional blessing, at least until a higher court rules otherwise.

Or at least authorize it through congress.

Done through FISA and USA PATRIOT Act.
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Secretly CIA interns stomping out negative views of the US
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Agritum wrote:Arg, Caninope is Captain America under disguise. Everyone knows it.
Frisivisia wrote:
Me wrote:Just don't. It'll get you a whole lot further in life if you come to realize you're not the smartest guy in the room, even if you probably are.

Because Caninope may be in that room with you.
Nightkill the Emperor wrote:Thankfully, we have you and EM to guide us to wisdom and truth, holy one. :p
Norstal wrote:What I am saying of course is that we should clone Caninope.

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Socialist EU
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Founded: Aug 19, 2010
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Postby Socialist EU » Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:09 pm

Caninope wrote:
Socialist EU wrote:
Did Ed Snowwden reveal Social Security information, shit. :eek:

No, but I was pointing out that not all government records need to be made public.

I would argue that national security should be prioritized overal personal records in being kept secret, and it seems that you implicitly accept the premise that at least some government records should be kept secret.


Our email records ect should be kept secret from prying eyes too!
Egypt:
Spontaneous protests will not produce organisation, it is more likely to lead to an oppressive clampdown! There needs to be a long-term strategy to build the left towards..
-mass parties of the left
-mass trade unions
-mass left-wing publications

Europe
For a United socialist Europe under democratic working class rule.
For the unity of the working class across Europe and eventually* take power.
*'Towards a communist party of the EU'

Britain
For a voluntary federated democratic republic.

Scotland
Abstain on independence referendum, Salmond wants to keep within the union!

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