Edward Snowden Discussion Thread

[Forster Keys]

Assange advised him to go to Russia. Famous as a beacon for freedom of expression. What a fucking joke.

Most other places with better freedom of expression would have had Snowden arrested due to extradition agreements with the US. Simply, Snowden has to hide where the US can't get him.

Yeah, true. It's in the interests of expediency. The enemy of my enemy etc.

[New Chalcedon]

I believe that Snowden has made arrangements to travel to Venezuela - a country which I can hardly imagine extraditing him to the USA.

Frankly, he'd have been safe enough in Hong Kong - the response of Government House was less than positive:

Mr Edward Snowden left Hong Kong today (June 23) on his own accord for a third country through a lawful and normal channel.

The US Government earlier on made a request to the HKSAR Government for the issue of a provisional warrant of arrest against Mr Snowden. Since the documents provided by the US Government did not fully comply with the legal requirements under Hong Kong law, the HKSAR Government has requested the US Government to provide additional information so that the Department of Justice could consider whether the US Government's request can meet the relevant legal conditions. As the HKSAR Government has yet to have sufficient information to process the request for provisional warrant of arrest, there is no legal basis to restrict Mr Snowden from leaving Hong Kong.

The HKSAR Government has already informed the US Government of Mr Snowden's departure.

Meanwhile, the HKSAR Government has formally written to the US Government requesting clarification on earlier reports about the hacking of computer systems in Hong Kong by US government agencies. The HKSAR Government will continue to follow up on the matter so as to protect the legal rights of the people of Hong Kong.
Ends/Sunday, June 23, 2013
Issued at HKT 16:05

Just "happening" to mention the NSA computer hacking scandal in the official statement re:extradition.....yeah, right. It's the diplomatic version of "fuck you, no" in response to the extradition request. And it's a well-deserved one - the US has been hacking into countless files of foreign citizens, officials and agencies (remember that the dubious protection of the Fourth Amendment only applies to US citizens), and is now expecting other countries to make nice? Fuck no!

While this whole Snowden/NSA thing may have been being softpedaled by the US media, it's taking center-stage in the foreign offices elsewhere:

Switzerland this week asked Washington for explanations about Snowden’s revelations, especially on an alleged CIA blackmail operation to spy on its banks while he was stationed in Geneva as a diplomatic attache from 2007 to 2009.

At the G-8 this week, [German Chancellor Angela] Merkel’s spokesman has said she will press Obama for answers on the US surveillance programme. Berlin wants assurances from Obama that the on-line exchanges of its own citizens are not being monitored from Washington.

Unease over a clandestine US data collection programme has rippled across the Pacific to two of Washington’s major allies, Australia and New Zealand, raising concerns about whether they have cooperated with secret electronic data mining.
Both countries are members of the so-called ‘five eyes’ collective of major Western powers collecting and sharing signals intelligence, set up in the post-war 1940s. Five Eyes also includes the UK, Canada, and the US.

In Australia, the conservative opposition said it was "very troubled" and had voiced concern to U.S. diplomats in Canberra about what it called large-scale, covert surveillance of private data belonging to foreigners.

"There is a massive global trend to cloud services," said opposition communications spokesman Malcolm Turnbull, noting that the vast majority of providers were U.S. firms.

In Canada, Privacy Commissioner Jennifer Stoddart said Monday she would look into the implications for her country, saying the scope of information reportedly collected raises “significant concerns.”

Virtually every significant US ally is either alarmed or outright pissed off about this whole thing. Unless Obama handles this particularly deftly, it's likely to end up doing significant damage to (what's left of) the US' alliance structures.

[The Parkus Empire]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23023576
Just in: Snowden is seeking asylum in Ecuador.
(wow, if they accept him, it'll mean they have 2 whistle-blowers under their protection - Assange and Snowden)

Assange isn't being protected because he's a whistle blower (which he isn't, not personally anyway), he's being protected because he's a sick fuck.

[New Chalcedon]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23023576
Just in: Snowden is seeking asylum in Ecuador.
(wow, if they accept him, it'll mean they have 2 whistle-blowers under their protection - Assange and Snowden)

Assange isn't being protected because he's a whistle blower (which he isn't, not personally anyway), he's being protected because he's a sick fuck.

Mmm-hmm. The long list of irregularities surrounding the decision to prosecute has nothing to do with US pressure on Sweden, only on Assange's nature as a "sick fuck".

Yeah.....no.

[New Chalcedon]

Assange advised him to go to Russia. Famous as a beacon for freedom of expression. What a fucking joke.

Snowden's not staying in Russia - he's only passing through en route to "elsewhere".

[Farnhamia]

I believe that Snowden has made arrangements to travel to Venezuela - a country which I can hardly imagine extraditing him to the USA.

Frankly, he'd have been safe enough in Hong Kong - the response of Government House was less than positive:

Mr Edward Snowden left Hong Kong today (June 23) on his own accord for a third country through a lawful and normal channel.

The US Government earlier on made a request to the HKSAR Government for the issue of a provisional warrant of arrest against Mr Snowden. Since the documents provided by the US Government did not fully comply with the legal requirements under Hong Kong law, the HKSAR Government has requested the US Government to provide additional information so that the Department of Justice could consider whether the US Government's request can meet the relevant legal conditions. As the HKSAR Government has yet to have sufficient information to process the request for provisional warrant of arrest, there is no legal basis to restrict Mr Snowden from leaving Hong Kong.

The HKSAR Government has already informed the US Government of Mr Snowden's departure.

Meanwhile, the HKSAR Government has formally written to the US Government requesting clarification on earlier reports about the hacking of computer systems in Hong Kong by US government agencies. The HKSAR Government will continue to follow up on the matter so as to protect the legal rights of the people of Hong Kong.
Ends/Sunday, June 23, 2013
Issued at HKT 16:05

Just "happening" to mention the NSA computer hacking scandal in the official statement re:extradition.....yeah, right. It's the diplomatic version of "fuck you, no" in response to the extradition request. And it's a well-deserved one - the US has been hacking into countless files of foreign citizens, officials and agencies (remember that the dubious protection of the Fourth Amendment only applies to US citizens), and is now expecting other countries to make nice? Fuck no!

While this whole Snowden/NSA thing may have been being softpedaled by the US media, it's taking center-stage in the foreign offices elsewhere:

Switzerland this week asked Washington for explanations about Snowden’s revelations, especially on an alleged CIA blackmail operation to spy on its banks while he was stationed in Geneva as a diplomatic attache from 2007 to 2009.

At the G-8 this week, [German Chancellor Angela] Merkel’s spokesman has said she will press Obama for answers on the US surveillance programme. Berlin wants assurances from Obama that the on-line exchanges of its own citizens are not being monitored from Washington.

Unease over a clandestine US data collection programme has rippled across the Pacific to two of Washington’s major allies, Australia and New Zealand, raising concerns about whether they have cooperated with secret electronic data mining.
Both countries are members of the so-called ‘five eyes’ collective of major Western powers collecting and sharing signals intelligence, set up in the post-war 1940s. Five Eyes also includes the UK, Canada, and the US.

In Australia, the conservative opposition said it was "very troubled" and had voiced concern to U.S. diplomats in Canberra about what it called large-scale, covert surveillance of private data belonging to foreigners.

"There is a massive global trend to cloud services," said opposition communications spokesman Malcolm Turnbull, noting that the vast majority of providers were U.S. firms.

In Canada, Privacy Commissioner Jennifer Stoddart said Monday she would look into the implications for her country, saying the scope of information reportedly collected raises “significant concerns.”

Virtually every significant US ally is either alarmed or outright pissed off about this whole thing. Unless Obama handles this particularly deftly, it's likely to end up doing significant damage to (what's left of) the US' alliance structures.

Yeah, and all our allies are also running around their own intelligence agencies telling their people to make damned sure everything is buttoned up tight. *shrug* I know, tu quoque, but really, when it comes down to it, tu quoque.

[Forster Keys]

Assange advised him to go to Russia. Famous as a beacon for freedom of expression. What a fucking joke.

Snowden's not staying in Russia - he's only passing through en route to "elsewhere".

Ah, cool. Still that's what our old countryman said. Made me chuckle.

[New Chalcedon]

Yeah, and all our allies are also running around their own intelligence agencies telling their people to make damned sure everything is buttoned up tight. *shrug* I know, tu quoque, but really, when it comes down to it, tu quoque.

The tu quoque falls apart when you realise that 80%+ of the Internet runs through servers based in the US, and therefore subject to PRISM seizures. Put bluntly, the usual level of intelligence-gathering on the international scale has nothing like the scope of operations that PRISM has by virtue of this, and other nations are rightly alarmed by the vast, ill-gotten advantage that gives America in trade negotiations, commercial enterprises, etc. etc.

[The Parkus Empire]

Assange isn't being protected because he's a whistle blower (which he isn't, not personally anyway), he's being protected because he's a sick fuck.

Mmm-hmm. The long list of irregularities surrounding the decision to prosecute has nothing to do with US pressure on Sweden, only on Assange's nature as a "sick fuck".

Yeah.....no.

He wasn't arrested due to U.S. pressure, he was arrested because two women said he raped them. And no, when someone skips on their bail, that generally doesn't make a DA drop the idea of prosecution.

[Farnhamia]

Yeah, and all our allies are also running around their own intelligence agencies telling their people to make damned sure everything is buttoned up tight. *shrug* I know, tu quoque, but really, when it comes down to it, tu quoque.

The tu quoque falls apart when you realise that 80%+ of the Internet runs through servers based in the US, and therefore subject to PRISM seizures. Put bluntly, the usual level of intelligence-gathering on the international scale has nothing like the scope of operations that PRISM has by virtue of this, and other nations are rightly alarmed by the vast, ill-gotten advantage that gives America in trade negotiations, commercial enterprises, etc. etc.

Tough. Sorry, I feel little sympathy for Snowden and our "allies," who are always ready with a kind word and a lecture on how we should conduct our affairs. Bad mood today, I guess.

[TaQud]

How many Snowden threads will there be before they are all merged into a giant megathread?

anyway, my guess is that he leaves moscow and hides somewhere in Iceland

[Xsyne]

No, that's not the logical thing to do. That doesn't achieve anything.

*Looks at the 60's and 70's* Seemed to end Segregation to me.

Civil disobedience does not involve evading the law.

[Gravlen]

Assange isn't being protected because he's a whistle blower (which he isn't, not personally anyway), he's being protected because he's a sick fuck.

Mmm-hmm. The long list of irregularities surrounding the decision to prosecute has nothing to do with US pressure on Sweden, only on Assange's nature as a "sick fuck".

Yeah.....no.

I didn't take you for a conspiracy theorist and/or rape apologist. Huh.

And the irregularities are few and far between.

[New Chalcedon]

The tu quoque falls apart when you realise that 80%+ of the Internet runs through servers based in the US, and therefore subject to PRISM seizures. Put bluntly, the usual level of intelligence-gathering on the international scale has nothing like the scope of operations that PRISM has by virtue of this, and other nations are rightly alarmed by the vast, ill-gotten advantage that gives America in trade negotiations, commercial enterprises, etc. etc.

Tough. Sorry, I feel little sympathy for Snowden and our "allies," who are always ready with a kind word and a lecture on how we should conduct our affairs. Bad mood today, I guess.

What you do to or with your own citizens is your own business - if your people want a security/military industrial complex larger than the GDPs of half the world's countries combined, go right ahead for all of me. You'll be the people it bankrupts, after all - not us.

It starts being my business when I have to wonder if the NSA is reading my emails, looking into my forum passwords etc. and generally peering over my shoulder. I'm an Australian citizen, not a US citizen - your lovely little alphabet-soup of spy shops can get their sticky little beaks out of my business, thank you kindly!

That, of course, is leaving aside applications of this kind of knowledge that give the US - or US-based companies - illicit advantages.

Consider the (hypothetical) case of an Australian public-works contract about to be awarded: typically done on a low-viable-bid basis, with competitors putting in sealed bids. Because most company managers are happy enough to chat about such things over their "secure" emails, the NSA knows what the "low bid" for each of the Australian firms is as of the day before the bidding process is closed - an impecunious NSA officer approaches a contact of his in an American company which already does some work in Australia, and "lets slip" the amount of the current low bid in exchange for a consideration.

Et voila, the Australian subsidiary of that American company puts in a slightly lower bid, and gets the work - not because they bid honestly and well, but because they had access to information their Australian competitors didn't have. The now extremely pecunious NSA officer decides to keep an eye out for similar information to repeat the process, and everyone's happy except the Australian firm that got left out in the cold because of the corruption.

It took me less than a minute to envision such a scenario - I'm sure that it, and possibly worse, is happening on a routine basis given the government/corporate revolving door that is the US bureaucracy. And unless something's done, the only viable solution will be to simply ban US companies from operating in Australia altogether.

*Looks at the 60's and 70's* Seemed to end Segregation to me.

Civil disobedience does not involve evading the law.

Gandhi knew he wasn't going to be tortured to death. Edward Snowden has no such assurance, particularly given the extreme lengths to which the Obama Administration has gone to silence whistleblowers and punish those they catch in ways one might consider to be extra-Constitutional.

In his place, I'd move Heaven and Earth to avoid falling into the vengeful hands of the US spy agencies, too.

[Imperial--japan]

So when is Snowden going to die of mysterious and unfortunate circumstances?

[Vazdania]

It seems that the U.S has charged Snowden with crimes and is asking Hong Kong to arrest him

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/nat ... story.html


I think this is pretty bad, and proves the U.S corruption we have.

I think he should be a free man. We must act if he is brought back into the United States as an arrested man, or if they attack him. Freedom for Snowden!!!

[Tlik]

Since the time that it didn't produce physical, emotional or mental damage (or harm) to others. Unless you can name one way in which this event has caused such harm.

Also I apologise for insinuating such. It can become quite easy to assume that everyone's an American, especially with the FREEEEDOOOOM-esque topics. Still, there have been both Brits and Americans who have strongly criticised the government without penalty, which was my point.

Well, yes. But It is still something that is bad, for sure.
I'm not British either.

I think the bad thing is that we didn't know. Like security cameras, it's acceptable if we know about it and understand what they measure, because in a democracy we are entitled to fight against it. What was so shocking in this case was the fact that we weren't aware of how much power GCHQ and the NSA had.

[Vazdania]

So when is Snowden going to die of mysterious and unfortunate circumstances?

Give America like a few weeks.

[The Parkus Empire]

So when is Snowden going to die of mysterious and unfortunate circumstances?

When he feels he doesn't have enough threads?

[Vazdania]

How many Snowden threads will there be before they are all merged into a giant megathread?

anyway, my guess is that he leaves moscow and hides somewhere in Iceland

He should stay in Iceland.

[The Parkus Empire]

We must act

Elaborate plox

[New Chalcedon]

So when is Snowden going to die of mysterious and unfortunate circumstances?

The moment that the common herd has been distracted enough by the latest round of what the Kardashians are doing this week that the US Government can get away with having him whacked. And probably his family, too, if it's a deterrent they're looking for.

[Vazdania]

We must act

Elaborate plox

Like full on protesting at each state capitol and the US capitol.

[Tlik]

Good grief, no. Boris isn't fit to be monarch. We keep the Queen in top-quality medical care until she dies, at which point we keep her on as a robot clone. Boris is merely Prime Minister, Speaker, Leader of the Opposition, and Chancellor of the Exchequor.

Otherwise, yes.

/terminate Citizen!Group:British_Republicans

Hey, you're forgetting Irreplacable, Immortal Supreme Viceroy of the New British Empire. We will also issue Boris a special suit, and his own Borismobile, which will run solely on the tears of the proletariat.

Of course. The best thing is that the tears of the proletariat will be tears of joy: who doesn't want to be driven into the ground and destroyed by such an affable, good-chap type of buffoon?

[The Parkus Empire]

Elaborate plox

Like full on protesting at each state capitol and the US capitol.

Oh, PFC Manning shit.