George Zimmerman's Trial/acquittal/DOJ charges

[Grave_n_idle]

Who else could Zimmerman have fought? His (Zimmerman's) call to 911 ended qt 7:13, the gunshot was at 7:16. No time for him to really fight anyone else.

Hmm. What was Zimmerman doing at 7:10?

And Zimmerman claims that Martin was going for his gun, so Zimmerman could have been in very real danger.

Sure. Or, alternatively, he pulled on Trayvon, and Trayvon fought back because he was in very real danger.

We could ask him, but the other guy ensured he wouldn't testify.

It is a tragedy and I wish the cops got there sooner, but by all evidence I have seen Zimmerman was in the right.

I've seen no good evidence that he was in the right.

There MIGHT not be enough evidence to pronounce him 'guilty', but that's a very different thing.

[Grave_n_idle]

Or maybe Trayvon wasn't the guy Zimmerman fought, just the next guy he got to, while he was armed and angry.

The real tragedy, I guess, is that the police were only a minute away (apparently) - so it really was unnecessary for Zimmerman to ever be in the situation in the first place.

The police were called way before Martin was killed.

Three minutes, wasn't it?

[Alien Space Bats]

So the next question, on the every growing list of concerns is should a federal civil rights case be attempted ?
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/20 ... al-charges

The government has to make a show of it, but I don't expect any actual charges to be leveled.

[Greed and Death]

Except Stand Your Ground didn't mater in this case, that was a media invention to.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... l/1964901/

Zimmerman was initially going for a 'Stand Your Ground' hearing, until March, when his defence team dropped it (claiming they didn't have enough time to prepare for it), and went instead for a jury trial.

""The real focus is going to be getting ready for a jury trial," said Zimmerman's attorney, Mark O'Mara, as he explained why he decided not to use two weeks that had been set aside for the immunity hearing. "I think it's going to be a more accepted result if he gets an acquittal at trial.""

Zimmerman was on the ground, underneath Trayvon Martin...

According to Zimmerman and one of the witnesses. Two witnesses said Zimmerman was on top, and Martin (for some reason) elected not to testify, claiming that he was 'dead'.

On a related note - we know where the bullet hit Trayvon... has anyone seen anything about where the shot ended up?

This is a point of confusion. Normally when people say stand your ground they are referring to a lack of a duty to retreat. Where people who are saying stand your ground did not apply they mean the presence or absence of a duty to retreat had no bearing on the self defense claim. And they have a compelling argument why they are correct.

When people refer to the stand your ground hearing they refer to a procedural remedy available to any self defense claim before the jury trial. This is called a stand your ground hearing because it was passed at the same time as the stand your ground law. However it is not in the same section of the code as the stand your ground law. The stand your ground law is in 776.013 (3) of the Florida Criminal code. The immunity provision is in section 776.032 of the Florida criminal code, and it would be incorrect to assume the two laws are the same.

So it would be incorrect to refer to the stand your ground hearing.

[Jamzmania]

I don't know if this has been posted, but one of the jurors have given an interview to CNN:

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/16/justice/tale-of-two-trials/index.html

The juror sided with Zimmerman's account, and said Martin "was cutting through the back" of the neighborhood "looking into houses."

"He was stopping and starting," she said. "It was late at night, dark at night, raining. And anybody would think anybody walking down the road, stopping and turning and looking, if that's exactly what happened, is suspicious."

The juror didn't take "cracka" as a racial slur but an indication of "the type of life that they live ... and the environment they're living in."

"A lot of the times she was using phrases I have never heard before," the juror said.

She did not find Jeantel credible, the juror said, but "I felt very sorry for her. ... I think she felt inadequate toward everyone because of her education and communication skills."

"I think George Zimmerman is a man whose heart was in the right place but just got displaced by the vandalism in the neighborhoods, and wanting to catch these people so badly that he went above and beyond what he really should have done," the juror said.

So this particular juror didn't really pay attention to the evidence, did she?

"It was late at night..."

The shooting occurred at 7:17 PM; Zimmerman began talking to the police at 7:09 PM.

By way of reference, sunset occurred that night at 6:26 PM, civil twilight at 6:46 PM, nautical (i.e., full) twilight at 7:13 PM). Even under fucking martial law (i.e. a formal "dawn-to-dusk" curfew), Martin would have been legally allowed to be out of his house when Zimmerman's 911 call began (because military "dusk" doesn't end until nautical twilight; he'd have been shot precisely 4 minutes after curfew).

It was not "late at night" — unless in your mind teenagers aren't supposed to be out after sunset. Which leads me to a question: Five of the six jurors are mothers; so does this women insist that her kids be back home before the sun goes down — and will she still be doing that when they're 17?

Or is the "sunset rule" only applicable if you're black?

The juror sided with Zimmerman's account, and said Martin "was cutting through the back" of the neighborhood "looking into houses."

Actually, the 911 recording doesn't say this.

Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department.

Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, it's Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.

Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or hispanic?

Zimmerman: He looks black.

Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing?

Zimmerman: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's here now, he was just staring.

Dispatcher: OK, he's just walking around the area...

Zimmerman: looking at all the houses.

"Walking around", not "walking behind" or "'cutting through the back' of the neighborhood". Indeed, there is no reasonable reconstruction of Trayvon Martin's movements that could be described as "'cutting through the back' of the neighborhood", and — as can be seen from Zimmerman's own call, even he never made such a claim.

Beyond that, this juror's life experience must be sadly limited:

And anybody would think anybody walking down the road, stopping and turning and looking, if that's exactly what happened, is suspicious."

ORLY?!?

Because real Americans drive everywhere, right?

She did not find Jeantel credible, the juror said, but "I felt very sorry for her. ... I think she felt inadequate toward everyone because of her education and communication skills."

Well, of course someone who doesn't speak perfect white English isn't credible. "Those people" are all liars and criminals anyway, aren't they.

Do people still want to continue to insist that there's no problem here in the Land of the Free?

"Late at night" and "night", they're just phrases, both of which mean it was dark. Poor choice of words during one interview doesn't mean much.

Yeah even I never heard of any cutting through yards.

If I saw a young man, black or not, wearing a hoodie, walking down the street at night, randomly stopping and looking around for no apparent reason, would look suspicious. It's common sense.

Did you see her actually speak? If it wasn't for the mic no one could have heard her. She was mumbling, speaking in a monotone, etc. AKA poor communication skills.

The only ones claiming there is something wrong in the Justice system in reaction to this case are those who refuse to accept the fact that most of the evidence pointed towards Zimmerman's side and that the prosecution could not prove that, beyond reasonable doubt, that Zimmerman was guilty of 1st degree murder, 2nd degree murder, or manslaughter.

[Grave_n_idle]

Did you see her actually speak? If it wasn't for the mic no one could have heard her. She was mumbling, speaking in a monotone, etc. AKA poor communication skills.

Poor communications skills =/= unreliable.

The only ones claiming there is something wrong in the Justice system in reaction to this case are those who refuse to accept the fact that most of the evidence pointed towards Zimmerman's side and that the prosecution could not prove that, beyond reasonable doubt, that Zimmerman was guilty of 1st degree murder, 2nd degree murder, or manslaughter.

Half right. The evidence doesn't really 'point to Zimmerman's side' - although it doesn't provide enough certainty to find him guilty of murder. Those are two different things.

[Arkinesia]

If I saw a young man, black or not, wearing a hoodie, walking down the street at night, randomly stopping and looking around for no apparent reason, would look suspicious. It's common sense.

For all you know, he's looking for shelter, since, you know, it's raining. The townhouses had a lot of porches, or Martin could have been looking for a bus stop in what might have been poor visibility.

You've basically just admitted to being paranoid, is what I'm saying.

[Bankampar]

No. He was visiting with someone watching the NBA All-Star game. And he was looking around to see where he was going because it was dark and raining and there wasn't very good visibility. He was on the phone with his girlfriend and he told her there was some crazy guy following him and he didn't know why.

[Alyekra]

I like how all these people know the facts better than the jury.

[Alien Space Bats]

Hispanic is considered a different race by... well, almost everyone. I've never heard of a Hispanic person saying they're white.

The U.S. Census Bureau does not classify Hispanic as a race. If you work with Census Bureau data and you want to separate whites from Hispanics, you need to look at the numbers for "non-Hispanic whites" and subtract those from the numbers for whites overall.

There were a string of break-ins which were (to my understanding) committed by young black men in the neighborhood. Zimmerman was fed up with the break-ins and was part of the neighborhood watch. Zimmerman sees a young black man wearing a hoodie walking down the street at night carrying something. This was the only instance where race was involved on Zimmerman's part, race had no part in the rest of it.

Liberals would like to make Zimmerman out as a racist who gunned down Trayvon for no other reason than because he was black. This is the narrative that has been repeated and is being repeated. Again, it would have never gotten past the news stations if Zimmerman was black.

I've said this repeatedly; I'll say it again: We need to stop thinking of "racist" as a term we attach to people, and start thinking of "racist" as a term we attach to actions and attitudes.

Here's another way of thinking about it:



This is John Wayne Gacy, the so-called "Killer Clown". Between 1972 and 1978, he raped and murdered at least 33 teenage boys and young men.



This is Jeffrey Dahmer, the so-called "Milwaukee Cannibal". Between 1978 and 1991, he raped, murdered, dismember, and ate parts of 17 teenage boys and young men.



This is Ted Bundy (who apparently had no nickname). Between 1970 and 1974, he raped and murdered at least 30 girls and young women.


This is John Norman Collins, the so-called "Co-ed Killer". Between 1967 and 1969, he is believed to have murdered at least 6 women who were students at the University of Michigan (in Ann Arbor) and Eastern Michigan University (he was only convicted of one of the killings).

Now, here's the interesting part: We've seen so many white male serial killers that it's actually become something of a media meme. Remember this guy?



Yeah, that's right: That's Hannibal Lecter (a/k/a "Hannibal the Cannibal), as played by Sir Anthony Hopkins, from Silence of the Lambs. He's depicted as a psychologist who has a secret life as a psychopathic killer. BTW, when we first see him in film, he's helping track down another fictional serial killer...



... Jame Gumb (a/k/a "Buffalo Bill"), as played by Ted Levine. Gumb is making himself a "girl suit" — out of real girls. Of course, this isn't the only book (or movie) in which Lecter plays a role; he first appears in print in Thomas Harris' novel Red Dragon, which actually focuses on another fictional serial killer...



... Francis Dolarhyde (a/k/a "The Tooth Fairy"), as played by Ralph Fiennes. Dolarhyde is convinced that he is a monster due to childhood abandonment issues and due to his having a cleft palate, which he was only able to correct as an adult; this self-hatred has manifested itself in the form of a belief that by slaughter enough families (and he kills whole families), he will transform into his true self (i.e., the Beast of the Apocalypse), as depicted by William Blake's Great Red Dragon.

Then there's this guy:



... Dexter Morgan, (anti-)hero of the TV series Dexter), as played by Michael C. Hall. Dexter is a crime scene analyst for the City of Miami Police Department who leads a double life as a vigilante, seeking to adhere to "The Code", which dictates that he only murder people whom he can be certain are themselves murderers.

So what do all of these people (both real and fictional) have in common?

Why, they're all white.

Indeed, the meme of the white male serial killer is so deeply embedded in our culture that it would be improper to dismiss it as a "racist" idea; and it may have even had an impact on this case ("creepy-ass, kill-my-neighbors cracker").

Yet you don't see people generally looking at white males and thinking, "Gosh, he's probably a serial killer"; you don't see the police putting white men at the top of the list when they realize they're dealing with a serial killer.

In contrast, when we see a black man who fits a certain physical description, we do think "gangbanger", "thug", and "criminal".

Now why is that?

[Alien Space Bats]

On a related note - we know where the bullet hit Trayvon... has anyone seen anything about where the shot ended up?

It didn't exit his body.

[Arkinesia]

*the most amazing post on NSG, ever*

That was absolutely beautiful, ASB.

I just. I can't get over that.

[Grave_n_idle]

On a related note - we know where the bullet hit Trayvon... has anyone seen anything about where the shot ended up?

It didn't exit his body.

Well, that's unhelpful.

[Greed and Death]

On a related note - we know where the bullet hit Trayvon... has anyone seen anything about where the shot ended up?

It didn't exit his body.

Yeah I imagine he used hollow points or some other expanding round. More lethal + less collateral damage.

[Alien Space Bats]

Three minutes, wasn't it?

Eight minutes.

Zimmerman was on the phone from 7:09 PM until 7:13 PM. The shooting occurred at 7:17 PM.

[Geilinor]

Stand Your Ground should not have applied to this case and the jury instructions shouldn't have provided a definition according to it. http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/criminal/despite-outcry-zimmermans-acquittal-was-not-based-on-stand-your-ground-laws/2131629 Stand Your Ground only applies to retreating.

[Sheltopolis]

...In contrast, when we see a black man who fits a certain physical description, we do think "gangbanger", "thug", and "criminal".

Now why is that?

Probably because black people commit 85% of interracial crimes, are 7x more likely to commit murder than another race, and 8x more likely to commit robbery. I could go on.

[Sibirsky]

...In contrast, when we see a black man who fits a certain physical description, we do think "gangbanger", "thug", and "criminal".

Now why is that?

Probably because black people commit are convicted of 85% of interracial crimes, are 7x more likely to commit be convicted of murder than another race, and 8x more likely to commit be convicted of robbery. I could go on.

[Geilinor]

Stop lying.

Thats odd, considering the idea of Hispanic being its own race is a phenomenon distinct to the US.


....you mean a black person killing a black teenager wouldn't be about race, but a white person killing a black teenager might be?

Holy fucking shit, you're a genius aren't you?

This issue is in the US. So claiming "it's only in the US" is a defunct argument.

The Census Bureau actually says "non-Hispanic white". Obviously that means there are white Hispanics. Hispanic refers to a person from a Spanish-speaking country, which is an ethnicity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico#Demographics A plurality of Mexican-Americans self identify as white. 45% identify as mixed-race, or mestizo, but 47% as white.

[Sheltopolis]

Probably because black people commit are convicted of 85% of interracial crimes, are 7x more likely to commit be convicted of murder than another race, and 8x more likely to commit be convicted of robbery. I could go on.

And what was the point of that?

[Alien Space Bats]

Did you see her actually speak? If it wasn't for the mic no one could have heard her. She was mumbling, speaking in a monotone, etc. AKA poor communication skills.

Yes. I watched her entire testimony (my wife is disabled, and I was caring for her that day).

Zimmerman's attorneys acted like she was from Mars, and couldn't speak English. Having been around working-class blacks for much of my life, I had no problem whatsoever understanding her (and neither did my wife, who grew up in Chicago). In fact, I got pretty angry (as did my wife) at defense counsel's pretense that she wasn't speaking English, along with their deliberate attempts to confuse her testimony as much as possible — all to advance a narrative of "illiterate black bitch doesn't know anything".

The only ones claiming there is something wrong in the Justice system in reaction to this case are those who refuse to accept the fact that most of the evidence pointed towards Zimmerman's side and that the prosecution could not prove that, beyond reasonable doubt, that Zimmerman was guilty of 1st degree murder, 2nd degree murder, or manslaughter.

The evidence did not point towards Zimmerman's side. It was inconclusive, and under such circumstances acquittal was all but certain.

That said, the prosecution could have done a much better job; they didn't, and that made it easier for the defense. But the worst thing is that the right has decided that George Zimmerman's acquittal is reason enough to assassinate Trayvon Martin's character, and now they are bent on advancing all of the racist memes inherent to this case, apparently in the belief that we don't profile black men ferociously enough.

The right's response to the left's cry of "We are all Trayvon Martin" is increasingly to say, "That's right, you are all Trayvon Martin — and he was a criminal, which means you people are, too!"

[Sibirsky]

And what was the point of that?

The number of convictions is not directly relevant to the incidence of crime.

Pop quiz. Do blacks or whites use marijuana in higher numbers and which group has more marijuana related arrests and convictions?

[Arkinesia]

And what was the point of that?

The number of convictions is not relevant to the incidence of crime.

Pop quiz. Do blacks or whites use marijuana in higher numbers and which group has more marijuana related arrests and convictions?

More white people use marijuana, but more black people are convicted or arrested on related charges.

[Alien Space Bats]

I like how all these people know the facts better than the jury.

All of the evidence presented in this is currently in the public record. The jury didn't have access to anything we can't see.

[Sibirsky]

The number of convictions is not relevant to the incidence of crime.

Pop quiz. Do blacks or whites use marijuana in higher numbers and which group has more marijuana related arrests and convictions?

More white people use marijuana, but more black people are convicted or arrested on related charges.

Usage rates are actually similar.

Regardless, more black people are arrested and convicted of marijuana related crimes.

Evidence that more convictions do not mean there is more crime among a certain group of people.