George Zimmerman's Trial/acquittal/DOJ charges

[Grave_n_idle]

Except Stand Your Ground didn't mater in this case, that was a media invention to.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... l/1964901/

Zimmerman was initially going for a 'Stand Your Ground' hearing, until March, when his defence team dropped it (claiming they didn't have enough time to prepare for it), and went instead for a jury trial.

""The real focus is going to be getting ready for a jury trial," said Zimmerman's attorney, Mark O'Mara, as he explained why he decided not to use two weeks that had been set aside for the immunity hearing. "I think it's going to be a more accepted result if he gets an acquittal at trial.""

Zimmerman was on the ground, underneath Trayvon Martin...

According to Zimmerman and one of the witnesses. Two witnesses said Zimmerman was on top, and Martin (for some reason) elected not to testify, claiming that he was 'dead'.

On a related note - we know where the bullet hit Trayvon... has anyone seen anything about where the shot ended up?

[Choronzon]

Try an actual argument.

He said, without a hint of irony.

[Jamzmania]

Hispanic is considered a different race by... well, almost everyone.

Stop lying.

I've never heard of a Hispanic person saying they're white.

Thats odd, considering the idea of Hispanic being its own race is a phenomenon distinct to the US.

Again, it would have never gotten past the news stations if Zimmerman was black.

....you mean a black person killing a black teenager wouldn't be about race, but a white person killing a black teenager might be?

Holy fucking shit, you're a genius aren't you?

This issue is in the US. So claiming "it's only in the US" is a defunct argument.

Also, that is exactly the point.

[Choronzon]

Stop lying.

Thats odd, considering the idea of Hispanic being its own race is a phenomenon distinct to the US.


....you mean a black person killing a black teenager wouldn't be about race, but a white person killing a black teenager might be?

Holy fucking shit, you're a genius aren't you?

This issue is in the US. So claiming "it's only in the US" is a defunct argument.

You are also assuming that most Americans, especially those who see through the right wing and the gun lobby's smokescreen, are silly enough to think white Hispanics are not white.

You should not make such an idiot assumption.

Also, that is exactly the point.

....you're terrible at this.

[Central Kadigan]

Under Florida law (and the laws of 48 other US states and Canada), once the defense makes a claim of self-defense with respect to a homicide charge, the prosecution must disprove self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. It is not clear who made the initial provocation, but it is certainly plausible that Martin attacked Zimmerman and Zimmerman fired his gun in self-defense. Therefore, the jury had no choice but to acquit.

Bull sh!t. All claims of self-defense belong to Martin, not to Zimmerman. The "initial act of provocation" was Zimmerman confronting and chasing Martin for no reason. This entire incident was caused by Zimmerman and Zimmerman alone - no one, not even his own legal defense bothered to deny that.

[Alien Space Bats]

Once again, it is unlikely that this had anything to do with race. Blather on all you like about attitudes, but Zimmerman did not profile Martin do to the color of his skin. The only times he even mentioned that he was black on the police call was when he was asked what Martin's race was. Christ, he wasn't even sure until half way through the call. Your baseless allegation that George Zimmerman profiled Trayvon Martin because he was black is getting quite absurd.

Zimmerman simply thought that it was suspicious that a person was walking through the rain in the middle of the night, with something he couldn't identify in his hand. Zimmerman got out of his vehicle and said "What are you doing around here?" and then, the evidence doesn't know. Trayvon Martin was killed because of a mistake, and it was a tragedy that it happened. He was not killed because Zimmerman thought that black people didn't belong in his community.

Look! It's a guy in a hoodie!!!



OMG, he's at the NYSE!!! He's right there in the middle of that crowd, ringing the opening bell! HE'S GOING TO BREAK INTO EVERYBODY'S PORTFOLIOS, AND STEAL EVERYBODY'S WEALTH!!!! STOP THE THUG!!!!



Where's George Zimmerman when we really need him?!?!?

<pause>

It's wasn't "just" the hoodie. Sorry.

[Auralia]

Under Florida law (and the laws of 48 other US states and Canada), once the defense makes a claim of self-defense with respect to a homicide charge, the prosecution must disprove self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. It is not clear who made the initial provocation, but it is certainly plausible that Martin attacked Zimmerman and Zimmerman fired his gun in self-defense. Therefore, the jury had no choice but to acquit.

Bull sh!t. All claims of self-defense belong to Martin, not to Zimmerman. The "initial act of provocation" was Zimmerman confronting and chasing Martin for no reason. This entire incident was caused by Zimmerman and Zimmerman alone - no one, not even his own legal defense bothered to deny that.

Following someone does not qualify as provocation, and we don't know if Zimmerman actually confronted Martin. It is entirely possible that Martin confronted and attacked Zimmerman after noticing that Zimmerman was following him.

[Spirit of Hope]

Except Stand Your Ground didn't mater in this case, that was a media invention to.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... l/1964901/

Zimmerman was initially going for a 'Stand Your Ground' hearing, until March, when his defence team dropped it (claiming they didn't have enough time to prepare for it), and went instead for a jury trial.

""The real focus is going to be getting ready for a jury trial," said Zimmerman's attorney, Mark O'Mara, as he explained why he decided not to use two weeks that had been set aside for the immunity hearing. "I think it's going to be a more accepted result if he gets an acquittal at trial.""

A stand your ground hearing is essentially a judge deciding if you acted in self defense.

Zimmerman was on the ground, underneath Trayvon Martin...

According to Zimmerman and one of the witnesses. Two witnesses said Zimmerman was on top, and Martin (for some reason) elected not to testify, claiming that he was 'dead'.

On a related note - we know where the bullet hit Trayvon... has anyone seen anything about where the shot ended up?

Well their was also the fact that Zimmerman had grass and water on his back, plus injuries to the back of his head. So some physical evidence does support what Zimmerman and the other witness reported. I have seen nothing about where the bullet ended up, which would support it traveling upwards.

[Alien Space Bats]

You've seen pictures. His feet are about two metres from the path. That's a hell of a jump to do backwards ... from a wrestling position on top of Zimmerman.

Scary black men have superpowers.

[The Fiery Wastelands]

You've seen pictures. His feet are about two metres from the path. That's a hell of a jump to do backwards ... from a wrestling position on top of Zimmerman.

Scary black men have superpowers.

I hope that's a joke.

[Alien Space Bats]

There was a protest about a half mile from my place that nearly turned into a riot when about 150 kids decided to use the understandable and legitimate grievances of the anti-Zimmerman protesters as cover for running up and down the streets committing mayhem, breaking windows, and assaulting random people on the street. The cops even ended up standing in the courtyard of our apartment complex, discussing where to go next and looking around for people who had darted from that crowd in an attempt to escape from them. Tense night. Choppers still hovering, and they likely will be for a while. The mayor, a county supervisor, and the police chief just gave a press conference in which they appealed for calm and essentially said "If you pull this shit again tomorrow night, we're cracking skulls".

Guess I'll do my shopping during the day and keep the doors locked at night, just in case.

Los Angeles, I take it?

[Grave_n_idle]

A stand your ground hearing is essentially a judge deciding if you acted in self defense.

I'm well aware. But it is also evidence that your claim that it was all made up by the media untrue.

Well their was also the fact that Zimmerman had grass and water on his back, plus injuries to the back of his head. So some physical evidence does support what Zimmerman and the other witness reported.

It also supports the argument that Zimmerman had already had his ass kicked five minutes BEFORE he got in a fight with Martin - but that one was never offered in court.

Don't fit the evidence to the story.

I have seen nothing about where the bullet ended up, which would support it traveling upwards.

Even bullets that go upwards eventually come back down.

Absent information about where it actually ended, we really don't know who was in which position when the shot was fired - so the Zimmerman-underneath scenario is entirely speculative.

[Jamzmania]

A stand your ground hearing is essentially a judge deciding if you acted in self defense.

I'm well aware. But it is also evidence that your claim that it was all made up by the media untrue.

Well their was also the fact that Zimmerman had grass and water on his back, plus injuries to the back of his head. So some physical evidence does support what Zimmerman and the other witness reported.

It also supports the argument that Zimmerman had already had his ass kicked five minutes BEFORE he got in a fight with Martin - but that one was never offered in court.

Don't fit the evidence to the story.

I have seen nothing about where the bullet ended up, which would support it traveling upwards.

Even bullets that go upwards eventually come back down.

Absent information about where it actually ended, we really don't know who was in which position when the shot was fired - so the Zimmerman-underneath scenario is entirely speculative.

The Zimmerman-underneath scenario is the most likely as it has the most evidence to support it.

[Alien Space Bats]

Yeah, but the media and posters on this topic seem to be devoting all their time towards something happens everyday.

Don't you think that the fact that young black men get killed almost every single day is sufficient reason for us to try and stop it from happening?

Cancer is the number one fatal illness in America today. Are you saying that because so many people die of cancer, we shouldn't try and find a cure for it?

If you do, you have really odd priorities.

[Grave_n_idle]

The Zimmerman-underneath scenario is the most likely as it has the most evidence to support it.

It has the most important piece of evidence, certainly - the other guy is dead.

The forensic evidence doesn't really support or oppose the story - at least, the evidence we've heard about.

[Central Kadigan]

Bull sh!t. All claims of self-defense belong to Martin, not to Zimmerman. The "initial act of provocation" was Zimmerman confronting and chasing Martin for no reason. This entire incident was caused by Zimmerman and Zimmerman alone - no one, not even his own legal defense bothered to deny that.

Following someone does not qualify as provocation, and we don't know if Zimmerman actually confronted Martin. It is entirely possible that Martin confronted and attacked Zimmerman after noticing that Zimmerman was following him.

We know, as both sides stipulated, that a foot chase ensued. Simply walking behind someone is not provocation, but chasing them down sure as hell is.

If some weird little dude with a gun was following me, I might try to run away too - and if he proceeded to chase me, then I'd try to beat the living crap out of him too - in actual self-defense.

[Jamzmania]

The Zimmerman-underneath scenario is the most likely as it has the most evidence to support it.

It has the most important piece of evidence, certainly - the other guy is dead.

The forensic evidence doesn't really support or oppose the story - at least, the evidence we've heard about.

The witness that was the closest to the incident supported Zimmerman's account. Zimmerman's back was wet and had grass on it. Zimmerman had injuries on the back of his head. Trayvon's shirt was singed, etc., suggesting that the shot was fired at extremely close range.

[Choronzon]

The reactions by many liberals in America to the acquittal is astonishing. There was no proof whatsoever that Zimmerman ever broke any laws during the exchange, and even if he had there was no way to prove it or it would have been presented during the trial. More and more I just see, "He was a white man (which he wasn't, he's a light-skinned Hispanic) who killed a black teenager so he's guilty and if you acquit him you're a racist."

It should not be a matter of race, the liberal media and celebrities made it a matter of race. Instead, it should be a matter of "did he commit any crimes". This trial wouldn't have even gotten past the local news stations if it wasn't because of race.

It just occurred to me that the whole premise of this post is "IT CAN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH RACE, HE WAS HISPANIC!"

Which implies that a half Jew, half Hispanic could not be racist against black people.

Which is both racist and idiotic.

[Grave_n_idle]

It has the most important piece of evidence, certainly - the other guy is dead.

The forensic evidence doesn't really support or oppose the story - at least, the evidence we've heard about.

The witness that was the closest to the incident supported Zimmerman's account. Zimmerman's back was wet and had grass on it. Zimmerman had injuries on the back of his head. Trayvon's shirt was singed, etc., suggesting that the shot was fired at extremely close range.

Which witness are you talking about?

Zimmerman's back could have got wet or dirty before or after the shooting.

The same is true for Zimmerman's 'injuries'.

No one is contesting that Trayvon was shot at close range, as far as I've seen.

[Spirit of Hope]

The witness that was the closest to the incident supported Zimmerman's account. Zimmerman's back was wet and had grass on it. Zimmerman had injuries on the back of his head. Trayvon's shirt was singed, etc., suggesting that the shot was fired at extremely close range.

Which witness are you talking about?

Zimmerman's back could have got wet or dirty before or after the shooting.

The same is true for Zimmerman's 'injuries'.

No one is contesting that Trayvon was shot at close range, as far as I've seen.

Except Zimmerman had all of a minute between shooting Martin and the police arriving. And one witness claimed he was "pacing" next to Martin, while others have him straddling Martin. Don't see him getting a fractured nose, two black eyes, two cuts to the back of his head, bruising on his check and lip, and injuries to his back, except in a fist fight with Martin. Oh and Martin only had a superficial cut on one of his fingers, sounds like a one sided fight.

[Grave_n_idle]

Which witness are you talking about?

Zimmerman's back could have got wet or dirty before or after the shooting.

The same is true for Zimmerman's 'injuries'.

No one is contesting that Trayvon was shot at close range, as far as I've seen.

Except Zimmerman had all of a minute between shooting Martin and the police arriving. And one witness claimed he was "pacing" next to Martin, while others have him straddling Martin. Don't see him getting a fractured nose, two black eyes, two cuts to the back of his head, bruising on his check and lip, and injuries to his back, except in a fist fight with Martin. Oh and Martin only had a superficial cut on one of his fingers, sounds like a one sided fight.

Or maybe Trayvon wasn't the guy Zimmerman fought, just the next guy he got to, while he was armed and angry.

The real tragedy, I guess, is that the police were only a minute away (apparently) - so it really was unnecessary for Zimmerman to ever be in the situation in the first place.

[Spirit of Hope]

Except Zimmerman had all of a minute between shooting Martin and the police arriving. And one witness claimed he was "pacing" next to Martin, while others have him straddling Martin. Don't see him getting a fractured nose, two black eyes, two cuts to the back of his head, bruising on his check and lip, and injuries to his back, except in a fist fight with Martin. Oh and Martin only had a superficial cut on one of his fingers, sounds like a one sided fight.

Or maybe Trayvon wasn't the guy Zimmerman fought, just the next guy he got to, while he was armed and angry.

The real tragedy, I guess, is that the police were only a minute away (apparently) - so it really was unnecessary for Zimmerman to ever be in the situation in the first place.

Who else could Zimmerman have fought? His (Zimmerman's) call to 911 ended qt 7:13, the gunshot was at 7:16. No time for him to really fight anyone else. And Zimmerman claims that Martin was going for his gun, so Zimmerman could have been in very real danger. It is a tragedy and I wish the cops got there sooner, but by all evidence I have seen Zimmerman was in the right.

[Jamzmania]

Except Zimmerman had all of a minute between shooting Martin and the police arriving. And one witness claimed he was "pacing" next to Martin, while others have him straddling Martin. Don't see him getting a fractured nose, two black eyes, two cuts to the back of his head, bruising on his check and lip, and injuries to his back, except in a fist fight with Martin. Oh and Martin only had a superficial cut on one of his fingers, sounds like a one sided fight.

Or maybe Trayvon wasn't the guy Zimmerman fought, just the next guy he got to, while he was armed and angry.

The real tragedy, I guess, is that the police were only a minute away (apparently) - so it really was unnecessary for Zimmerman to ever be in the situation in the first place.

The police were called way before Martin was killed.

[Alien Space Bats]

I don't know if this has been posted, but one of the jurors have given an interview to CNN:

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/16/justice/tale-of-two-trials/index.html

The juror sided with Zimmerman's account, and said Martin "was cutting through the back" of the neighborhood "looking into houses."

"He was stopping and starting," she said. "It was late at night, dark at night, raining. And anybody would think anybody walking down the road, stopping and turning and looking, if that's exactly what happened, is suspicious."

The juror didn't take "cracka" as a racial slur but an indication of "the type of life that they live ... and the environment they're living in."

"A lot of the times she was using phrases I have never heard before," the juror said.

She did not find Jeantel credible, the juror said, but "I felt very sorry for her. ... I think she felt inadequate toward everyone because of her education and communication skills."

"I think George Zimmerman is a man whose heart was in the right place but just got displaced by the vandalism in the neighborhoods, and wanting to catch these people so badly that he went above and beyond what he really should have done," the juror said.

So this particular juror didn't really pay attention to the evidence, did she?

"It was late at night..."

The shooting occurred at 7:17 PM; Zimmerman began talking to the police at 7:09 PM.

By way of reference, sunset occurred that night at 6:26 PM, civil twilight at 6:46 PM, nautical (i.e., full) twilight at 7:13 PM). Even under fucking martial law (i.e. a formal "dawn-to-dusk" curfew), Martin would have been legally allowed to be out of his house when Zimmerman's 911 call began (because military "dusk" doesn't end until nautical twilight; he'd have been shot precisely 4 minutes after curfew).

It was not "late at night" — unless in your mind teenagers aren't supposed to be out after sunset. Which leads me to a question: Five of the six jurors are mothers; so does this women insist that her kids be back home before the sun goes down — and will she still be doing that when they're 17?

Or is the "sunset rule" only applicable if you're black?

The juror sided with Zimmerman's account, and said Martin "was cutting through the back" of the neighborhood "looking into houses."

Actually, the 911 recording doesn't say this.

Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department.

Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, it's Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.

Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or hispanic?

Zimmerman: He looks black.

Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing?

Zimmerman: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's here now, he was just staring.

Dispatcher: OK, he's just walking around the area...

Zimmerman: looking at all the houses.

"Walking around", not "walking behind" or "'cutting through the back' of the neighborhood". Indeed, there is no reasonable reconstruction of Trayvon Martin's movements that could be described as "'cutting through the back' of the neighborhood", and — as can be seen from Zimmerman's own call, even he never made such a claim.

Beyond that, this juror's life experience must be sadly limited:

And anybody would think anybody walking down the road, stopping and turning and looking, if that's exactly what happened, is suspicious."

ORLY?!?

Because real Americans drive everywhere, right?

She did not find Jeantel credible, the juror said, but "I felt very sorry for her. ... I think she felt inadequate toward everyone because of her education and communication skills."

Well, of course someone who doesn't speak perfect white English isn't credible. "Those people" are all liars and criminals anyway, aren't they.

Do people still want to continue to insist that there's no problem here in the Land of the Free?

[Alien Space Bats]

What the hell is going on in this guy's mind?

Anthea Butler is a woman.