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Are Disney Movies Bad for Children?

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Electroconvulsive Glee
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Postby Electroconvulsive Glee » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:01 pm

Prussia-Steinbach wrote:
Electroconvulsive Glee wrote:I am a big fan of Disney Movies (at least the quality cartoons & classics). I would not go so far as to say they are bad for children and many have various positive messages, but one does not have to "search" very hard for more than "racial undertones" in many Disney classics.

Consider whether the following are valid examples of racism, prejudice, or stereotyping:
  • Peter Pan not only includes the infamous "What makes the red man red?", but the Native characters speak a stereotypical, broken English. Further, Princess Tiger Lily’s father represents the negative stereotype of being uncivilized and savage as he holds Wendy’s brothers hostage.
  • The crows in Dumbo appear and talk in a manner stereotypical and derogatory of African-Americans.
  • The Siamese cats in Lady and the Tramp appear to have stereotypical Asian features such as slanted eyes, buckteeth and very heavy accents and are depicted as sinister, cunning and manipulative.
  • Aladdin portrays “bad” Arabs with thick foreign accents while Anglicized Jasmine and Aladdin speak in standard Americanized
    English. Some of the original lyrics in the movie include: “I come from a land…where they cut off your ears if they don’t like your face. It’s barbaric, but hey, it’s home.”
  • Tarzan, which was released in 1999, is set in Africa but does not feature any black people.
  • In Oliver and Company, a Chihuahua named Alonzo appears is typecast as a Latino troublemaker with a Hispanic accent who talks about stealing cars.
  • The seemingly African-American orangutans in The Jungle Book who sing they "wanna be like you" are controversial (although the use of African-American jazz characters may simply be misunderstood).
  • In The Lion King, the hyenas appear to speak in a kind of street, inner city African-American and Hispanic dialects. They are portrayed as villains.
  • Sunflower the Centaur from Fantasia
This list is not exhaustive. Although reasonable disagreement about the degree of racism in some Disney movies, blind denial of any racism in Disney cartoons is wrong.

Such racism may reflect societal norms at the time a movie was made and are probably unintentional. However, to quote (with some alteration of context) U.S. Supreme Court Justices Kennedy and O'Connor:
Prejudice, we are beginning to understand, rises not from malice or hostile animus alone. It may result as well from insensitivity caused by simple want of careful, rational reflection or from some instinctive mechanism to guard against people who appear to be different in some respects from ourselves. Quite apart from any historical documentation, knowledge of our own human instincts teaches that persons who [are different in apparent race, color, or ethnicity] might at first seem unsettling to us, unless we are guided by the better angels of our nature. There can be little doubt, then, that persons . . . are confronted with prejudice which can stem from indifference or insecurity as well as from malicious ill will. Board of Trustees of the University of Alabama v. Garrett, 531 U.S. 356, 374-75 (2001) (Kennedy, J., concurring)

You have a point with the first few - but let's remember when those movies were made, shall we?

And anyway, most of that is stereotyping, not racism.

1. When they were made may explain racism & stereotypes, but it does not make them disappear. Nor does it make them necessarily harmless.

2. Explain how derogatory racial stereotyping is not a form of racism.
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Gandoor
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Postby Gandoor » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:01 pm

Johto and Kanto wrote:They seemed fine to me.
Considering a lot of the movies are either based off of fairy tales, or use animal protagonists or characters, I don't think they're a bad influence.
Of course, one could probably pick out a scene that could be considered sexist or racist, but those scenes would almost surely sail over the heads of little kids.

Disney needs to be banned.
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Charellia
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Postby Charellia » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:01 pm

Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
Charellia wrote:Never thought about it like that. I still think that its okay though because in the end the beast learned how to behave properly and really the most enduring message of a movie comes at the end.


Yes.

That if you love a guy strongly enough, eventually he'll change from being monstrously abusive to being a shining prince.

Of course, if he doesn't change, it's because you didn't love him enough, but that's only implied, not made explicit.

I would argue that when the beast was abusive she hated him. It was only when he became a better person that she began to fall in love.

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Kazarogkai
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Postby Kazarogkai » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:02 pm

Giovenith wrote:
Kazarogkai wrote:Violence Honestly I dont have a problem with, I would be more than happy to watch some old war movies with my elementary school age kids(the goo ones mind you like "Lawrence of Arabia", "Lion of the desert", etc) many of them are very well crafted. Lawrence especially, it shows a conflicted man who on the inside is breaking down completely. But overly sexualization, showing of terrible role models(Barbey, Disney princesses), and such things that Disney does I refuse to let those influence my child. I want my child to look up to this not this

My daughters will be warriors not princesses.


Why not both? :p


Ok you have one on me, Princess lela was the shit, she was realistic(not overly skinny and overly super hot) but also could hold her own for the most part. Princess lela is a decent role model, not great, bu decent. The second chick is just another example of females in movies always getting overly impractical Armour just to look sexy.
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Johto and Kanto
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Postby Johto and Kanto » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:02 pm

Gandoor wrote:
Johto and Kanto wrote:They seemed fine to me.
Considering a lot of the movies are either based off of fairy tales, or use animal protagonists or characters, I don't think they're a bad influence.
Of course, one could probably pick out a scene that could be considered sexist or racist, but those scenes would almost surely sail over the heads of little kids.

Disney needs to be banned.

Why?
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Gandoor
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Postby Gandoor » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:03 pm

Johto and Kanto wrote:
Gandoor wrote:Disney needs to be banned.

Why?

They're a horrible company.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:04 pm

Khadgar wrote:
Individuality-ness wrote:Also, you can fix bad boys if you love them JUST right.


All the furniture in the Beast's house was animate. Remember the wing with the broken furniture? Did he kill a bunch of singing decor?

There's only so many Disney songs you can listen to before you just start killing fuckers.

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Katzistanza
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Postby Katzistanza » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:04 pm

Prussia-Steinbach wrote:
Electroconvulsive Glee wrote:I am a big fan of Disney Movies (at least the quality cartoons & classics). I would not go so far as to say they are bad for children and many have various positive messages, but one does not have to "search" very hard for more than "racial undertones" in many Disney classics.

Consider whether the following are valid examples of racism, prejudice, or stereotyping:
  • Peter Pan not only includes the infamous "What makes the red man red?", but the Native characters speak a stereotypical, broken English. Further, Princess Tiger Lily’s father represents the negative stereotype of being uncivilized and savage as he holds Wendy’s brothers hostage.
  • The crows in Dumbo appear and talk in a manner stereotypical and derogatory of African-Americans.
  • The Siamese cats in Lady and the Tramp appear to have stereotypical Asian features such as slanted eyes, buckteeth and very heavy accents and are depicted as sinister, cunning and manipulative.
  • Aladdin portrays “bad” Arabs with thick foreign accents while Anglicized Jasmine and Aladdin speak in standard Americanized
    English. Some of the original lyrics in the movie include: “I come from a land…where they cut off your ears if they don’t like your face. It’s barbaric, but hey, it’s home.”
  • Tarzan, which was released in 1999, is set in Africa but does not feature any black people.
  • In Oliver and Company, a Chihuahua named Alonzo appears is typecast as a Latino troublemaker with a Hispanic accent who talks about stealing cars.
  • The seemingly African-American orangutans in The Jungle Book who sing they "wanna be like you" are controversial (although the use of African-American jazz characters may simply be misunderstood).
  • In The Lion King, the hyenas appear to speak in a kind of street, inner city African-American and Hispanic dialects. They are portrayed as villains.
  • Sunflower the Centaur from Fantasia
This list is not exhaustive. Although reasonable disagreement about the degree of racism in some Disney movies, blind denial of any racism in Disney cartoons is wrong.

Such racism may reflect societal norms at the time a movie was made and are probably unintentional. However, to quote (with some alteration of context) U.S. Supreme Court Justices Kennedy and O'Connor:
Prejudice, we are beginning to understand, rises not from malice or hostile animus alone. It may result as well from insensitivity caused by simple want of careful, rational reflection or from some instinctive mechanism to guard against people who appear to be different in some respects from ourselves. Quite apart from any historical documentation, knowledge of our own human instincts teaches that persons who [are different in apparent race, color, or ethnicity] might at first seem unsettling to us, unless we are guided by the better angels of our nature. There can be little doubt, then, that persons . . . are confronted with prejudice which can stem from indifference or insecurity as well as from malicious ill will. Board of Trustees of the University of Alabama v. Garrett, 531 U.S. 356, 374-75 (2001) (Kennedy, J., concurring)

You have a point with the first few - but let's remember when those movies were made, shall we?

And anyway, most of that is stereotyping, not racism.


Stereotyping, racism, the point is, sending and re-enforcing negative messages.

Keep in mind that I'm a Disney fan and grew up on these movies, and that these are issues with the entertainment industry as a whole. Just because I recognize the negative messages and influences where they exist doesn't mean I'm about to hold a bonfire over it.
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Soviet Central
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Postby Soviet Central » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:04 pm

Ifreann wrote:We're just talking about it on the internet, we're not storming the seat of government or Disney headquarters.


Which is why your actions are pointless. You wont gonna change anything here on this forum.

Ifreann wrote:And for the record, it is totally okay for us to bitch about Disney movies. DWI.

Totally ok and pointless.

Ifreann wrote:Is what you're doing important? Bitching at us?

Pointing out pointlessness of other people actions is by no means pointless.


Individuality-ness wrote:
Soviet Central wrote:Well yeah. Im pointing out irrelevance of this topic and reaction of other people.

You're a hypocrite.


Bitching about Disney on some forum wont do much in real life to solve the problem (if there is one), while pointing this out to people might actually bring few of them to senses.


Nailed to the Perch wrote:Except, amazingly, something not being relevant to you does not actually magically render it irrelevant to other people. You are perfectly allowed not to care about media criticism or Disney movies, but it looks very, very silly when you show up in a discussion solely to tell people, repeatedly, just how much you don't care about that discussion.


My point was that you coming to this forum to bitch about disney wont help to solve problem, therefore this action is pointless. My other point was that disney company have full rights to make theyr product in any way they want. If you dont like it-dont use it. What can you possibly gain or change by bitchin about it?
Last edited by Soviet Central on Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Individuality-ness
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Postby Individuality-ness » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:05 pm

Charellia wrote:
Individuality-ness wrote:Not really. Its moral is questionable.

EDIT: BAD GRAMMAR FIX

You may be right but the movie still has less harmful subtext than the others. Belle is by far the most intelligent and independent of the princesses, she succeeds in humanizing her captor and it is the Disney movie where beauty and goodness are the least closely related.

The fact that she earns a happy ending by loving him so much that she humanizes him is the problem.

And there's still the overt "beauty = goodness" trope in the movie. Belle means "beautiful" in French for God's sake.
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Electroconvulsive Glee
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Postby Electroconvulsive Glee » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:05 pm

Johto and Kanto wrote:They seemed fine to me.
Considering a lot of the movies are either based off of fairy tales, or use animal protagonists or characters, I don't think they're a bad influence.
Of course, one could probably pick out a scene that could be considered sexist or racist, but those scenes would almost surely sail over the heads of little kids.

Or, as is widely discussed in sociology, child development, etc., "those scenes" may be absorbed by little kids and unconsciously shape their world view.

Moreover, some of the sexism (especially) and racism is not confined to particular scenes. Some is ubiquitous. Some is even central to the theme of the movie.
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Individuality-ness
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Postby Individuality-ness » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:06 pm

Soviet Central wrote:
Individuality-ness wrote:You're a hypocrite.

Bitching about Disney on some forum wont do much in real life to solve the problem (if there is one), while pointing this out to people might actually bring few of them to senses.

Uh, actually, it does do something. We are pointing this out to people, albeit the medium is the Internet.
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Ultrapia
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Postby Ultrapia » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:07 pm

Pixar no but regular Disney, yep.
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Yorkopolis
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Postby Yorkopolis » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:07 pm

The Sector Union wrote:Yes they are.
The Disney Cult is re-establishing films with stories that weren't really meant for kids in the first place. Many of the movies contain these subliminal messages about sex.

I know Walt Disney was a social conservative but his legacy has been hijacked by some fat corporate slob. and don't get me started on the garbage Disney Channel puts, those are worst than the movies.

While I agree that the current Disney Channel is absolute gobshit, "the Disney Cult" is really just plain bullshit. Your posts are really, really getting worse aren't they?
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Nailed to the Perch
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Postby Nailed to the Perch » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:07 pm

Ethel mermania wrote:
Nailed to the Perch wrote:
Well, except that it wasn't a "nude photoshoot." It was a "teenager wearing a halter top with a blanket over it" photoshoot. You can't see anything but her face, her shoulder, and part of her mid-to-upper back. The outrage over it as if she'd been abused by Annie Leibowitz was a bit much.


the implication was that she was nude, and the issue is sexualizing a minor. i get that 16 year olds are sex objects to other 16 year olds, and that is fine. vanity fair is not targeted at 16 year olds.


I wouldn't have objected if people had said, "Hmm, this photo seems to me to have some sexual overtones. I don't think that was a good choice for a photo of a minor." That's a totally reasonable position. (I don't entirely agree with it - I'll accept that it has sexual overtones within the larger context of a culture, like ours, in which the female body is treated as being inherently sexual, and that Vanity Fair probably should have expected backlash, but I don't actually see anything intrinsically sexual in that photo - but it's reasonable.) What I objected to were the over-the-top accusations that taking a photo of a teenage girl wearing a halter top was disgusting, overtly sexual, abusive, and so on and so forth. I mean, for heaven's sake, I remember people seriously accusing Annie Leibowitz of being a child molester solely because she took a photo of a fully-clothed teenage girl while her parents were in the room watching and okaying everything. That's kinda nuts.
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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:08 pm

Individuality-ness wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Where the hell's her armor? That's a fucking metal bikini.

SWM audience, also she was a slave of Jabba the Hutt at the time.

I was talking about Xena. Leia is actually wearing a full cloth outfit in that image.
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Bullyland
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Postby Bullyland » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:08 pm

Nationalist State of Knox wrote:Can't we all just enjoy a good cartoon without searching for racial undertones?


^This
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Individuality-ness
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Postby Individuality-ness » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:08 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Individuality-ness wrote:SWM audience, also she was a slave of Jabba the Hutt at the time.

I was talking about Xena. Leia is actually wearing a full cloth outfit in that image.

This is why I need to go look at the images in question. *facepalm*
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Electroconvulsive Glee
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Postby Electroconvulsive Glee » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:09 pm

Soviet Central wrote:
Ifreann wrote:We're just talking about it on the internet, we're not storming the seat of government or Disney headquarters.


Which is why your actions are pointless. You wont gonna change anything here on this forum.

Ifreann wrote:And for the record, it is totally okay for us to bitch about Disney movies. DWI.

Totally ok and pointless.

Ifreann wrote:Is what you're doing important? Bitching at us?

Pointing out pointlessness of other people actions is by no means pointless.


Individuality-ness wrote:You're a hypocrite.


Bitching about Disney on some forum wont do much in real life to solve the problem (if there is one), while pointing this out to people might actually bring few of them to senses.


Nailed to the Perch wrote:Except, amazingly, something not being relevant to you does not actually magically render it irrelevant to other people. You are perfectly allowed not to care about media criticism or Disney movies, but it looks very, very silly when you show up in a discussion solely to tell people, repeatedly, just how much you don't care about that discussion.


My point was that you coming to this forum to bitch about disney wont help to solve problem, therefore this action is pointless. My other point was that disney company have full rights to make theyr product in any way they want. If you dont like it-dont use it. What can you possibly gain or change by bitchin about it?

I am shocked, shocked to learn that posting in NSG is not action that changes the world!

Seriously, were you under the impression that discussions on this forum are intended or expected to change anything or solve any problems? Beyond possibly changing opinions of some portion of the NSG population on a particular subject, posting here obviously does not change reality
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Charellia
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Postby Charellia » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:09 pm

Individuality-ness wrote:
Charellia wrote:You may be right but the movie still has less harmful subtext than the others. Belle is by far the most intelligent and independent of the princesses, she succeeds in humanizing her captor and it is the Disney movie where beauty and goodness are the least closely related.

The fact that she earns a happy ending by loving him so much that she humanizes him is the problem.

I don't see it quite that way. The beast had to act human in order to get her to fall in love with her. Acting human makes him human

And there's still the overt "beauty = goodness" trope in the movie. Belle means "beautiful" in French for God's sake.


I'll concede that point but there is still the fact that the antagonist is better looking than his rival which is rare.
Last edited by Charellia on Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Johto and Kanto
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Postby Johto and Kanto » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:10 pm

Electroconvulsive Glee wrote:
Johto and Kanto wrote:They seemed fine to me.
Considering a lot of the movies are either based off of fairy tales, or use animal protagonists or characters, I don't think they're a bad influence.
Of course, one could probably pick out a scene that could be considered sexist or racist, but those scenes would almost surely sail over the heads of little kids.

Or, as is widely discussed in sociology, child development, etc., "those scenes" may be absorbed by little kids and unconsciously shape their world view.

Moreover, some of the sexism (especially) and racism is not confined to particular scenes. Some is ubiquitous. Some is even central to the theme of the movie.

I don't remember any movies withthose themes that were that blatant.
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Crystal Spires
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Postby Crystal Spires » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:10 pm

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Yumyumsuppertime
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Postby Yumyumsuppertime » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:10 pm

Charellia wrote:
Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
Yes.

That if you love a guy strongly enough, eventually he'll change from being monstrously abusive to being a shining prince.

Of course, if he doesn't change, it's because you didn't love him enough, but that's only implied, not made explicit.

I would argue that when the beast was abusive she hated him. It was only when he became a better person that she began to fall in love.


As the father-to-be of a daughter, I'd prefer that she watch a movie with the message "If the guy starts ripping apart the furniture and yelling at you over perceived or imagined slights, then get the fuck out of there."

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Katzistanza
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Postby Katzistanza » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:10 pm

Soviet Central wrote:
Ifreann wrote:We're just talking about it on the internet, we're not storming the seat of government or Disney headquarters.


Which is why your actions are pointless. You wont gonna change anything here on this forum.

Ifreann wrote:And for the record, it is totally okay for us to bitch about Disney movies. DWI.

Totally ok and pointless.

Ifreann wrote:Is what you're doing important? Bitching at us?

Pointing out pointlessness of other people actions is by no means pointless.


Individuality-ness wrote:You're a hypocrite.


Bitching about Disney on some forum wont do much in real life to solve the problem (if there is one), while pointing this out to people might actually bring few of them to senses.


Nailed to the Perch wrote:Except, amazingly, something not being relevant to you does not actually magically render it irrelevant to other people. You are perfectly allowed not to care about media criticism or Disney movies, but it looks very, very silly when you show up in a discussion solely to tell people, repeatedly, just how much you don't care about that discussion.


My point was that you coming to this forum to bitch about disney wont help to solve problem, therefore this action is pointless. My other point was that disney company have full rights to make theyr product in any way they want. If you dont like it-dont use it. What can you possibly gain or change by bitchin about it?


What you call "bitching" others call "discussing." Just because it doesn't satisfy your imaginary goal doesn't make it pointless. Maybe, just maybe, the point is simply to exercise one's mind, converse and discuss things with other human beings, and go on your way.

Whereas your point seems to be to come on a discussion-based website and talk about how stupid discussion is.

NSG is about words not deeds. It's a place to talk about, not do. If posting over and over that talking about things is stupid is the only way you get your jollies, that sucks, but I'd suggest you find an activity you enjoy, rather than just repeating yourself here.

Unless that is an activity you enjoy. In which case, have at it.
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Petrovsegratsk
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Posts: 1324
Founded: Apr 02, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Petrovsegratsk » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:10 pm

Nationalist State of Knox wrote:Can't we all just enjoy a good cartoon without searching for racial undertones?


You must be confused, you see, you're on Earth, such a thing isn't possible.
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