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Democracy is Slavery

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Kromar
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Democracy is Slavery

Postby Kromar » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:26 pm

I would like you, dear reader, to read the following excerpt, because I can find no way to improve the argument made therein.
"The Tale of the Slave"
from Robert Nozick, Anarchy, State, and Utopia, pp. 290-292.

Consider the following sequence of cases, which we shall call the Tale of the Slave, and imagine it is about you.

1 There is a slave completely at the mercy of his brutal master's whims. He often is cruelly beaten, called out in the middle of the night, and so on.

2 The master is kindlier and beats the slave only for stated infractions of his rules (not fulfilling the work quota, and so on). He gives the slave some free time.

3 The master has a group of slaves, and he decides how things are to be allocated among them on nice grounds, taking into account their needs, merit, and so on.

4 The master allows his slaves four days on their own and requires them to work only three days a week on his land. The rest of the time is their own.

5 The master allows his slaves to go off and work in the city (or anywhere they wish) for wages. He requires only that they send back to him three-sevenths of their wages. He also retains the power to recall them to the plantation if some emergency threatens his land; and to raise or lower the three-sevenths amount required to be turned over to him. He further retains the right to restrict the slaves from participating in certain dangerous activities that threaten his financial return, for example, mountain climbing, cigarette smoking.

6 The master allows all of his 10,000 slaves, except you, to vote, and the joint decision is made by all of them. There is open discussion, and so forth, among them, and they have the power to determine to what uses to put whatever percentage of your (and their) earnings they decide to take; what activities legitimately may be forbidden to you, and so on.

Let us pause in this sequence of cases to take stock. If the master contracts this transfer of power so that he cannot withdraw it, you have a change of master. You now have 10,000 masters instead of just one; rather you have one 10,000-headed master. Perhaps the 10,000 even will be kindlier than the benevolent master in case 2. Still, they are your master. However, still more can be done. A kindly single master (as in case 2) might allow his slave(s) to speak up and try to persuade him to make a certain decision. The 10,000-headed monster can do this also.

7 Though still not having the vote, you are at liberty (and are given the right) to enter into the discussions of the 10,000, to try to persuade them to adopt various policies and to treat you and themselves in a certain way. They then go off to vote to decide upon policies covering the vast range of their powers.

8 In appreciation of your useful contributions to discussion, the 10,000 allow you to vote if they are deadlocked; they commit themselves to this procedure. After the discussion you mark your vote on a slip of paper, and they go off and vote. In the eventuality that they divide evenly on some issue, 5,000 for and 5,000 against, they look at your ballot and count it in. This has never yet happened; they have never yet had occasion to open your ballot. (A single master also might commit himself to letting his slave decide any issue concerning him about which he, the master, was absolutely indifferent.)

9 They throw your vote in with theirs. If they are exactly tied your vote carries the issue. Otherwise it makes no difference to the electoral outcome.

The question is: which transition from case 1 to case 9 made it no longer the tale of a slave?


What do you think NSG? I'm particularly interested in hearing if there are any rational reasons why this is not slavery. I believe I hold a rather unusual point of view. I think that even after step 9, this is still the tale of a slave, so democracy is slavery, but I do not mind it. I am a slave, but I do not find this particularly objectionable. My master does not harm me, and in fact provides an environment in which I can be happy. Of course I'd rather not be a slave, but I consider it impractically difficult to free myself of my shackles.
Last edited by Kromar on Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Regnum Dominae
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Postby Regnum Dominae » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:41 pm

Seriously? What is it with everything being labeled as slavery all of a sudden?
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Benuty
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Postby Benuty » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:43 pm

Regnum Dominae wrote:Seriously? What is it with everything being labeled as slavery all of a sudden?


Persecution complex in action.
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Kromar
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Postby Kromar » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:43 pm

Regnum Dominae wrote:Seriously? What is it with everything being labeled as slavery all of a sudden?

I do apologize for the taxation is slavery thing, that's completely false. (Taxation is theft, though, but please, lets not discuss that here.)
The Emerald Dawn wrote:Round and round, and up and down, and back and forth again; Nobody ever loses, 'cause nobody ever wins.

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Nadkor
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Postby Nadkor » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:44 pm

Regnum Dominae wrote:Seriously? What is it with everything being labeled as slavery all of a sudden?


It's the same as "taxes are theft".

See, apparently conflating two superficially similar enough but actually fundamentally conceptually and factually different things with the intention of associating one thing that you dislike with another thing that everyone (or most people) dislike passes for making any kind of actual reasoned argument.
Last edited by Nadkor on Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ainin
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Postby Ainin » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:45 pm

I hate summer... >.<
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GreenSleevesandDragons
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Postby GreenSleevesandDragons » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:48 pm

Regnum Dominae wrote:Seriously? What is it with everything being labeled as slavery all of a sudden?
Or how about every crime being labeled as a "culture." Hyperbolize the issue and you will get attention, but not credibility.

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Ainin
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Postby Ainin » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:49 pm

Kromar wrote:
Regnum Dominae wrote:Seriously? What is it with everything being labeled as slavery all of a sudden?

I do apologize for the taxation is slavery thing, that's completely false. (Taxation is theft, though, but please, lets not discuss that here.)

Everything in this post and the OP are patently untrue.
"And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned round on you — where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat?"

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The Rich Port
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Postby The Rich Port » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:53 pm

So... We're slaves to each other?

Nothing in the OP has anything to do with the concept of democracy, nor does it apply to a whole shit-ton of people.

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The Greater Ohio Valley
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Postby The Greater Ohio Valley » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:53 pm

:palm:
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:54 pm

Shit, he's on to us guys. Better abandon democracy forever.

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Frisivisia
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Postby Frisivisia » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:55 pm

Kromar wrote:
Regnum Dominae wrote:Seriously? What is it with everything being labeled as slavery all of a sudden?

I do apologize for the taxation is slavery thing, that's completely false. (Taxation is theft, though, but please, lets not discuss that here.)

Taxation isn't theft, democracy isn't slavery, thinking things that aren't things are things is slavery.
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Postby Diopolis » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:56 pm

I'm no fan of democracy, and this is the worst argument against it I have ever heard.
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Blekksprutia
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Postby Blekksprutia » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:56 pm

...With representation.
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Postby Frisivisia » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:56 pm

Ifreann wrote:Shit, he's on to us guys. Better abandon democracy forever.

OUR PLAN!
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Thafoo
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Postby Thafoo » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:56 pm

Ha, no.

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The Greater Ohio Valley
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Postby The Greater Ohio Valley » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:57 pm

At this rate, everything is going to be slavery. ;)
Last edited by The Greater Ohio Valley on Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Frisivisia » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:57 pm

The Greater Ohio Valley wrote:At this rate, everything is going to be slavery.

Freedom is slavery.
Impeach The Queen, Legalize Anarchy, Stealing Things Is Not Theft. Sex Pistols 2017.
I'm the evil gubmint PC inspector, here to take your Guns, outlaw your God, and steal your freedom and give it to black people.
I'm Joe Biden. So far as you know.

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Postby Blekksprutia » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:57 pm

Thafoo wrote:Ha, no.

Summer.
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Arg: Blekk does that. The topics of same sex marriage and the human race's fight against idiocy motivate him to write some truly impressive and glorious rants that deserve to be remembered and sigged.
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Horus: blekky you are blekky i am horus
Rio: Blekky you are the best person on this website. Figuratively, kiss me.
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Thafoo
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Postby Thafoo » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:57 pm

Frisivisia wrote:
The Greater Ohio Valley wrote:At this rate, everything is going to be slavery.

Freedom is slavery.

So is slavery freedom?

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United Dependencies
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Postby United Dependencies » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:57 pm

Regnum Dominae wrote:Seriously? What is it with everything being labeled as slavery all of a sudden?

All of a sudden?

Try, since we moved from the jolt forum back in 2009.
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Postby TaQud » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:58 pm

how about no?
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The Greater Ohio Valley
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Postby The Greater Ohio Valley » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:58 pm

Frisivisia wrote:
The Greater Ohio Valley wrote:At this rate, everything is going to be slavery.

Freedom is slavery.


Life is slavery.
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Thafoo
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Postby Thafoo » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:58 pm

I feel as though you were inspired by Loki's evil ramblings in The Avengers.

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Diopolis
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Postby Diopolis » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:58 pm

Thafoo wrote:
Frisivisia wrote:Freedom is slavery.

So is slavery freedom?

Making slavery slavery, so we're back at square one.
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