What do you think of NS's mainly male population?

[Ifreann]

That men cannot, no. That men, especially straight white cis men, typically do not, that's rather another matter.

Typically do not, and cannot, are not the same thing.

I again assert that there is no information that is made unobtainable by one's sex; rendering one's sex absolutely meaningless in a discussion.

So what knowledge one actually has doesn't matter in a discussion, what matters is that one could hypothetically have any information.


You seem really invested in getting us to ignore this, it's kinda weird.

If the topic were to somehow shift to the trials and tribulations involved in shopping for underwear(some amount of those alcoholic beverages would probably be required to facilitate this segue), then we probably couldn't have the same conversation that two males or two females could.

Again, probably does not mean you cannot.

And can does not mean does.

And as per the above, males and females tend to have different knowledge, as they tend to have different life experiences.

Only willfully so, because we as a society treat them differently. It's a circular argument. "Sex matters, because men and women have different experiences, because we treat them differently, because sex matters..."

Are you suggesting we ignore this reality because it didn't come about logically?

[Aurora Novus]

So what knowledge one actually has doesn't matter in a discussion, what matters is that one could hypothetically have any information.


You seem really invested in getting us to ignore this, it's kinda weird.

Thats not what I'm saying.

I'm saying what matters is the knowledge one has; and I'm saying that men and women can have all knowledge, and therefore, it's ridiculous to pretend that somehow being of one sex or another makes you more valuable in a conversation.

And can does not mean does.

Of course. I fail to see how this is relevant, as I'm not saying this.

I am saying, quite clearly, that because men and women can have any information, sex does not matter in a discussion; only the information one has. Which again, can come from anyone of either sex.

Either you don't understand this is what I'm saying, or for some reason, you're trying to misrepresent what I'm saying.

Are you suggesting we ignore this reality because it didn't come about logically?

I'm saying to suggest it's "reality" and not a wide-spread delusion, is incorrect.

[Ifreann]

So what knowledge one actually has doesn't matter in a discussion, what matters is that one could hypothetically have any information.


You seem really invested in getting us to ignore this, it's kinda weird.

Thats not what I'm saying.

I'm saying what matters is the knowledge one has; and I'm saying that men and women can have all knowledge, and therefore, it's ridiculous to pretend that somehow being of one sex or another makes you more valuable in a conversation.

And can does not mean does.

Of course. I fail to see how this is relevant, as I'm not saying this.

You are saying that it matter what knowledge one has. I am saying that, here in the real world, people often have different life experiences because of their sex, and thus they know different things. I am not saying that there is some Mystery of Maleness that simply cannot be contained within a female brain.

I am saying, quite clearly, that because men and women can have any information, sex does not matter in a discussion; only the information one has. Which again, can come from anyone of either sex.

Seriously, it's like you're saying that a history buff couldn't possibly have more to contribute to a discussion, since anyone could become an expert in history.

Either you don't understand this is what I'm saying, or for some reason, you're trying to misrepresent what I'm saying.

I understand what you're saying. I'm not sure if you do.

Are you suggesting we ignore this reality because it didn't come about logically?

I'm saying to suggest it's "reality" and not a wide-spread delusion, is incorrect.

...have you ever been out in reality?

[Aurora Novus]

You are saying that it matter what knowledge one has. I am saying that, here in the real world, people often have different life experiences because of their sex, and thus they know different things. I am not saying that there is some Mystery of Maleness that simply cannot be contained within a female brain.

I understand that it what you are saying. I'm simply saying this does not make one's sex valuable in a conversation, because, as you put it, can have does not mean does have, and vice versa, usually does not have doesn't mean they cannot have.

Sex is ultimately useless when it comes to discussion, and incorporating more of either sex would not give us any new information that we do not or could not already have. We don't need women, and we don't need men. We only need informed, rational individuals.

Seriously, it's like you're saying that a history buff couldn't possibly have more to contribute to a discussion, since anyone could become an expert in history.

First of all, gendered experiences are no where near as numerous and complicated as history, so to claim they are comparable in any practical way is dishonest. Secondly, a history buff would have more to offer by definition, because a history buff is one with much knowledge of history. Anyone who is an expert in history is thus a "history buff". Your example makes no sense then. Unless you're trying to claim that having great knowledge on gendered experiences makes you of that gender. Your comparison makes no sense otherwise.

A history buff is one with great knowledge of history. A male or female is not "one with great knowledge of gendered experiences". Your comparison is fundamentally flawed.

...have you ever been out in reality?

The prevalence of a belief does not make it any less of a delusion. The world once thought the earth was flat. We once thought that if volcanoes erupted, or earthquakes crumbled our homes, the gods were angry at us.

[The Steel Magnolia]

On the other hand, a man has extensive knowledge on what it's like to be a man, and a woman has extensive knowledge on what it's like to be a woman.

Where you have got this completely and utterly idiotic notion that knowledge is equal to experience is beyond me, but I'd advise putting it behind you.

[The Rich Port]

And if sex has nothing to do with knowledge, then what's the problem with recruiting some more ladies?

It's the same thing.

[Cameroi]

pretty much it is human males who have screwed up the real planet earth too.

i take no great pride in being one.

[The Blaatschapen]

pretty much it is human males who have screwed up the real planet earth too.

i take no great pride in being one.

Why?

It's not as if by sharing the same gender/sex you're suddenly also responsible for all the things men did in the past?

[The Tectonic Plates]

pretty much it is human males who have screwed up the real planet earth too.

i take no great pride in being one.

Why?

It's not as if by sharing the same gender/sex you're suddenly also responsible for all the things men did in the past?

Guilt by Association, it's been proven to be bullshit in the past, yet it's still relevant.

[Aurora Novus]

On the other hand, a man has extensive knowledge on what it's like to be a man, and a woman has extensive knowledge on what it's like to be a woman.

You state that as if being a man and being a woman are the same for every person. Hogwash.

Also, extensive is not the same as exclusive, and any man can have extensive knowledge for what it's like to be a woman, and vice versa.

Where you have got this completely and utterly idiotic notion that knowledge is equal to experience is beyond me, but I'd advise putting it behind you.

Experience is nothing more than first-hand knowledge. Knowledge is knowledge, and anyone can obtain it.

[Aurora Novus]

And if sex has nothing to do with knowledge, then what's the problem with recruiting some more ladies?

I never argued against the addition of females; I simply said it makes no difference, and thus, I don't really care. Sex isn't important for discussion, and isn't to be valued in terms of good arguments.

I'm sure there are a number of other reasons why people might want members of the opposite sex around. I'm merely saying that, from an intellectual standpoint, your sex is meaningless, and thus doesn't matter. So it doesn't concern me that we have a male majority, and I don't really care one way or another what the ratio of males to females are. We could have a female majority for all I care; I'd be saying the same thing.

[Aurora Novus]

pretty much it is human males who have screwed up the real planet earth too.

Uh...do tell.

i take no great pride in being one.

So because you share the same genitalia as some people who did bad things, you now feel guilty for things they did...and you didn't do?

I mean...okay. If that's the way you wish to live. But that seems very unhealthy and irrational.

[The Steel Magnolia]

On the other hand, a man has extensive knowledge on what it's like to be a man, and a woman has extensive knowledge on what it's like to be a woman.

You state that as if being a man and being a woman are the same for every person. Hogwash.

Also, extensive is not the same as exclusive, and any man can have extensive knowledge for what it's like to be a woman, and vice versa.

Where you have got this completely and utterly idiotic notion that knowledge is equal to experience is beyond me, but I'd advise putting it behind you.

Experience is nothing more than first-hand knowledge. Knowledge is knowledge, and anyone can obtain it.

Yeah I'd say I have extensive knowledge on rape and sexual assault. I'm also fairly sure that rape victims have exclusive knowledge on how it feels to be a rape victim. They can tell me about it, sure, but I don't know. I can never know until I've had that experience.

People who have experienced something are automatically experts on what that experience meant to them, and they know more than literally any other person on the subject. I know more about navigating my community as a woman than any man ever can. I can tell others how it feels like, but that's not the same as understanding on a truly, fundamental level.

You don't need to experience something to have knowledge of it. But you need to experience something to understand it.

[Esternial]

pretty much it is human males who have screwed up the real planet earth too.

Uh...do tell.

i take no great pride in being one.

So because you share the same genitalia as some people who did bad things, you now feel guilty for things they did...and you didn't do?

I mean...okay. If that's the way you wish to live. But that seems very unhealthy and irrational.

Well, if you're manscaping and end up with a Hitler moustache down there, you do feel like your penis is responsible for the death of over a million Jews.

[Cameroi]

Why?

It's not as if by sharing the same gender/sex you're suddenly also responsible for all the things men did in the past?

Guilt by Association, it's been proven to be bullshit in the past, yet it's still relevant.

guilt is not the point however. avoidance of gratuitous vanity is.

[Esternial]

Guilt by Association, it's been proven to be bullshit in the past, yet it's still relevant.

guilt is not the point however. avoidance of gratuitous vanity is.

No, that would be modesty.

You're not being modest, you're going even below that to a point of self-resentment.

[Constaniana]

pretty much it is human males who have screwed up the real planet earth too.

Uh...do tell.

i take no great pride in being one.

So because you share the same genitalia as some people who did bad things, you now feel guilty for things they did...and you didn't do?

I mean...okay. If that's the way you wish to live. But that seems very unhealthy and irrational.

Well, as long as he has more than one testicle, he can feel free of the guilt he would otherwise feel because of Hitler. *nods*

[Nailed to the Perch]

guilt is not the point however. avoidance of gratuitous vanity is.

No, that would be modesty.

You're not being modest, you're going even below that to a point of self-resentment.

Erm, all he actually said was "i take no great pride in being [a human male]." He then explicitly clarified this to say he doesn't feel guilty, he just doesn't take pride in it. Where are you getting self-resentment from?

[The Blaatschapen]

Uh...do tell.



So because you share the same genitalia as some people who did bad things, you now feel guilty for things they did...and you didn't do?

I mean...okay. If that's the way you wish to live. But that seems very unhealthy and irrational.

Well, if you're manscaping and end up with a Hitler moustache down there, you do feel like your penis is responsible for the death of over a million Jews.

Especially when your penis salutes.

[Aurora Novus]

Yeah I'd say I have extensive knowledge on rape and sexual assault.

Because you're a woman, or because you've actually experienced these things?

I'm also fairly sure that rape victims have exclusive knowledge on how it feels to be a rape victim.

Experience is not the same as exclusive knowledge.

They can tell me about it, sure, but I don't know. I can never know until I've had that experience.

So what you're saying is, knowing about something...isn't knowing about it.

Brilliant logic there.

People who have experienced something are automatically experts on what that experience meant to them, and they know more than literally any other person on the subject.

This is not always true, especially in the case where traumatic events cause people to lose a grip of reality, or a sense of self. Sometimes outside sources know more about an experience than the person who just experienced it. The whole field of therapy is centered upon the idea that outside input can help you better understand feelings within yourself that you yourself don't understand.

Experiencing something does not make you an expert on that event or feeling. To believe so doesn't reflect medical reality.

I know more about navigating my community as a woman than any man ever can.

Again, pretending that the "female" experience the same for everyone.

Further more, any human being can gain the same knowledge you have no navigating your streets.

I can tell others how it feels like, but that's not the same as understanding on a truly, fundamental level.

Not necessarily, but possibly yes. It all depends on he person you're telling. You're trying to make having the experience out to be some kind of mystical, magical thing, that's special and beyond mere knowledge. This is pure fantasy, and almost, it seems, wish thinking.

You don't need to experience something to have knowledge of it. But you need to experience something to understand it.

Not at all. Understanding is merely a component of obtaining knowledge. Anyone can understand anything, given enough time, and the proper learning environment.

[Cameroi]

guilt is not the point however. avoidance of gratuitous vanity is.

No, that would be modesty.

You're not being modest, you're going even below that to a point of self-resentment.

not at all. taking no pride is not a resentment of anything. it is simple logic.

i fail to see where the contrary assumption is coming from.

[Individuality-ness]

Not at all. Understanding is merely a component of obtaining knowledge. Anyone can understand anything, given enough time, and the proper learning environment.

I think this is what they're getting act:

I am biologically female. I can sort of figure out what having a penis is like, how much blue balls suck, how embarrassing it is to get a unwanted boner. I can sympathize with them and I can speak on their behalf against circumcision without a person's consent.

However, I will never get it. I can read as much as I want on these issues, I can have all of the facts I can get about certain issues that affect men, and I can sympathize with their pain, and I can speak as an ally.

But I'll never get it as well as a biologically male member of the human race will.

That's the difference.

[Aurora Novus]

I think this is what they're getting act:

I am biologically female. I can sort of figure out what having a penis is like, how much blue balls suck, how embarrassing it is to get a unwanted boner. I can sympathize with them and I can speak on their behalf against circumcision without a person's consent.

However, I will never get it. I can read as much as I want on these issues, I can have all of the facts I can get about certain issues that affect men, and I can sympathize with their pain, and I can speak as an ally.

But I'll never get it as well as a biologically male member of the human race will.

That's the difference.

I'm not understanding what you mean by "Get". You seem to be implying there is some sort of mystic element to understanding that one can only achieve by being a member of a group. This type of meaning you are trying to apply to understanding is almost theistic. "Once you are part of X religion, you experience things that non-believers cannot understand." Such mysticism is not real.

Unless you're trying to say one will never feel for themselves what someone else feels in a given scenario, which of course is true. Then again, you'll never feel exactly what someone else is feeling in any scenario, so this hardly seems like a profound statement. Further more, feelings do not give a better knowledge of a subject, and in fact can often be detrimental to one's capability to understand events. And if these feelings are so locked into only those who can experience them, then having people who have experienced them still makes them no more useful, because we still won't be able to feel them. Their experience gives them no special knowledge, nor does it give us the ability to feel what they feel for ourselves.

Bringing us right back to my initial statement; that one's sex is utterly meaningless in discussion.

[Nadkor]

Bringing us right back to my initial statement; that one's sex is utterly meaningless in discussion.

Let me guess...you're a young, straight, (probably) white, male?

[Esternial]

No, that would be modesty.

You're not being modest, you're going even below that to a point of self-resentment.

not at all. taking no pride is not a resentment of anything. it is simple logic.

i fail to see where the contrary assumption is coming from.

My bad, misinterpreted your post.