Woman denied US citizenship for being Atheist

[Kubrath]

Yes, correct, but in order for me to trust someone less than a murderer and a rapist, I would have to consider him to be worse than them.

Well, that's you. =T I mean, I might trust the word of a murderer before the word of an insane individual or a compulsive liar, but the murderer is far, far worse than being insane or being a compulsive liar.
An individual may be more prone to lying without being overall worse, and people may feel that atheist lie more, but aren't otherwise worse. May. I have no evidence to support that. You're probably right, though, regrettably. ~,~

I haven't thought about that, but as an ex-Christian, here's how I viewed Atheism: Don't believe in God, therefore no moral basis, therefore worse than criminals.
In the case of the criminal who believes in God, I knew that at least he would repent if not out of fear from Hell. There was no such thing for the Atheist, however. It wasn't just because they could be more prone to lying or such, it was morality as a whole.

But I was an exception, because Atheism here is not really an issue. Yet, as I understand it, I would've been the norm in the USA, as that is how a majority of people think (I presume).

[SENGRIAL]

Just saying, you're inviting a punch to the face.

But however she is not denied her citizenship because she is not religious. It was because she refused to serve in the event she is direly needed.

if you so direly need women at age of 64, you are already screwed...

First, how exactly am I inviting a punch to the face? Because I dare to insult the "best country in the world" and second; no truer words were said, if you NeEd ANYONE at 64 to serve in the military that just shows two things:

1) people are f**king tired of needless wars where all we do is invade poor sand dune covered countries to exploit for resources while we say we're "protecting and promoting democracy".

2) Because of 1 people are finally snapping out of the whole, "Im a high school grad let me jump my ass into the first recruiting center i see and sign up to protect Amurica" mentality and waking up to the fact that Iraq and Afghani war veterans come back suffering either lost limbs, permanent wounds, or PTSD/Survivor Guilt...and no one wants that to happen to them, no matter how many "enemies to America" they get to kill with an AK-47...

So again who cares if she was Atheist, who cares if she said she would volunteer in a non lethal way? She shouldn't have to, the United States Government has no rite to ask people to risk their lives for a country...none at all, whether it be lethal or fetching toner for the Armie's printer.

[Herrebrugh]

Damn this is stupid...

I'm so glad we don't have conscription over here, though. Only in case of war can I be drafted, I believe. And then I'm sure I could do something different than shooting people... You don't want to have me on a front line

[Yjafjord]

Damn this is stupid...

I'm so glad we don't have conscription over here, though. Only in case of war can I be drafted, I believe. And then I'm sure I could do something different than shooting people... You don't want to have me on a front line

"alrigh' ya lil' bastard, ge' in frunt o' me and take those bulle's fo' me!"

[IshCong]

Damn this is stupid...

I'm so glad we don't have conscription over here, though. Only in case of war can I be drafted, I believe. And then I'm sure I could do something different than shooting people... You don't want to have me on a front line

America does not currently draft individuals into the military and hasn't for some time. Men of a certain age are required to register for the draft, however, so that in the event the draft is ever reactivated preparations have been made.

[Yjafjord]

Damn this is stupid...

I'm so glad we don't have conscription over here, though. Only in case of war can I be drafted, I believe. And then I'm sure I could do something different than shooting people... You don't want to have me on a front line

America does not currently draft individuals into the military and hasn't for some time. Men of a certain age are required to register for the draft, however, so that in the event the draft is ever reactivated preparations have been made.

give them time, they'll piss off someone enough to say "F**K IT NUKES OR NO NUKES I'M PISSED!"

[Kubrath]

Damn this is stupid...

I'm so glad we don't have conscription over here, though. Only in case of war can I be drafted, I believe. And then I'm sure I could do something different than shooting people... You don't want to have me on a front line

It the same thing, basically, with the only difference that citizens are being drafted as a requirement to gain citizenship (I could be wrong about that, now that I see others' comments). They don't deny you the possibility to not bear arms. If a country is in a dire situation, it should be every citizen's duty to protect it in some way. But demanding a 64-year-old woman to bear arms on the front line is unacceptable.

[Herrebrugh]

Damn this is stupid...

I'm so glad we don't have conscription over here, though. Only in case of war can I be drafted, I believe. And then I'm sure I could do something different than shooting people... You don't want to have me on a front line

America does not currently draft individuals into the military and hasn't for some time. Men of a certain age are required to register for the draft, however, so that in the event the draft is ever reactivated preparations have been made.

Oh. I was always under the impression Americans were sent to Afghanistan in line with the draft...

I believe the state registers us by itself, though... >.>

At least, the letter I got pretty much said that I could be drafted in case of war.

[The Blaatschapen]

America does not currently draft individuals into the military and hasn't for some time. Men of a certain age are required to register for the draft, however, so that in the event the draft is ever reactivated preparations have been made.

Oh. I was always under the impression Americans were sent to Afghanistan in line with the draft...

I believe the state registers us by itself, though... >.>

At least, the letter I got pretty much said that I could be drafted in case of war.

It actually says that you could be drafted in case the suspension on our draft is lifted (which arguably might happen in a case of near war). At such a moment you can still go for conscientious objection.

Unless they've reworded the letter in the last decade

[Herrebrugh]

Oh. I was always under the impression Americans were sent to Afghanistan in line with the draft...

I believe the state registers us by itself, though... >.>

At least, the letter I got pretty much said that I could be drafted in case of war.

It actually says that you could be drafted in case the suspension on our draft is lifted (which arguably might happen in a case of near war). At such a moment you can still go for conscientious objection.

Unless they've reworded the letter in the last decade

That may be correct... I can't check it, though... It appears I only still have the envelope, not the letter itself >.>

[IshCong]

Damn this is stupid...

I'm so glad we don't have conscription over here, though. Only in case of war can I be drafted, I believe. And then I'm sure I could do something different than shooting people... You don't want to have me on a front line

It the same thing, basically, with the only difference that citizens are being drafted as a requirement to gain citizenship (I could be wrong about that, now that I see others' comments). They don't deny you the possibility to not bear arms. If a country is in a dire situation, it should be every citizen's duty to protect it in some way. But demanding a 64-year-old woman to bear arms on the front line is unacceptable.

Okay, in no particular order, here we go:
Firstly, no woman is required to register for the draft in America. Period.
Secondly, only men of a certain age range must register (18-26, I believe).
Thirdly, registering for the draft and being drafted are not the same thing.
Fourthly, the draft is not currently active in America.
Fifthly, Class 1-A-O individuals, COs with an objection to serving in a combat role, if drafted serve in a non-combat role. Class 1-O individuals, COs with an objection to any military service at all, if drafted go into the Alternative Service Program, which is essentially civilian duties that aid the nation, like industry and such.
Finally, COs are permitted to gain citizenship in the United States.

[The Blaatschapen]

It actually says that you could be drafted in case the suspension on our draft is lifted (which arguably might happen in a case of near war). At such a moment you can still go for conscientious objection.

Unless they've reworded the letter in the last decade

That may be correct... I can't check it, though... It appears I only still have the envelope, not the letter itself >.>

I can't check it either, it's at my parents' place.

[Kubrath]

It the same thing, basically, with the only difference that citizens are being drafted as a requirement to gain citizenship (I could be wrong about that, now that I see others' comments). They don't deny you the possibility to not bear arms. If a country is in a dire situation, it should be every citizen's duty to protect it in some way. But demanding a 64-year-old woman to bear arms on the front line is unacceptable.

Okay, in no particular order, here we go:
Firstly, no woman is required to register for the draft in America. Period.
Secondly, only men of a certain age range must register (18-26, I believe).
Thirdly, registering for the draft and being drafted are not the same thing.
Fourthly, the draft is not currently active in America.
Fifthly, Class 1-A-O individuals, COs with an objection to serving in a combat role, if drafted serve in a non-combat role. Class 1-O individuals, COs with an objection to any military service at all, if drafted go into the Alternative Service Program, which is essentially civilian duties that aid the nation, like industry and such.
Finally, COs are permitted to gain citizenship in the United States.

Aha, thanks for the clarification, I had the feeling I was wrong somewhere.

[IshCong]

Okay, in no particular order, here we go:
Firstly, no woman is required to register for the draft in America. Period.
Secondly, only men of a certain age range must register (18-26, I believe).
Thirdly, registering for the draft and being drafted are not the same thing.
Fourthly, the draft is not currently active in America.
Fifthly, Class 1-A-O individuals, COs with an objection to serving in a combat role, if drafted serve in a non-combat role. Class 1-O individuals, COs with an objection to any military service at all, if drafted go into the Alternative Service Program, which is essentially civilian duties that aid the nation, like industry and such.
Finally, COs are permitted to gain citizenship in the United States.

Aha, thanks for the clarification, I had the feeling I was wrong somewhere.

No problem, it was my pleasure to clarify.

[TaQud]

this deserves a facepalm

[Risottia]

...Ms. Doughty was told that any conscientious objection must be based on religious grounds, not simply moral objections. ...the INS has told her, “Please submit a letter on official church stationery, attesting to the fact that you are a member in good standing and the church’s official position on the bearing of arms.”

WTF?

What the hell kind of bullshit is this? Absolutely disgusting. This kind of crap is what I mean when I talk about religious privilege.
EDIT: I want it known that as of yet I have not found any secondary sources for this story, so feel free to take it with a grain of salt.

If confirmed, this tells us that the US government have indeed established a State religion: Non-irreligion.

[Yjafjord]

...Ms. Doughty was told that any conscientious objection must be based on religious grounds, not simply moral objections. ...the INS has told her, “Please submit a letter on official church stationery, attesting to the fact that you are a member in good standing and the church’s official position on the bearing of arms.”

WTF?

What the hell kind of bullshit is this? Absolutely disgusting. This kind of crap is what I mean when I talk about religious privilege.
EDIT: I want it known that as of yet I have not found any secondary sources for this story, so feel free to take it with a grain of salt.

If confirmed, this tells us that the US government have indeed established a State religion: Non-irreligion.

psst, the cult of the world tree needs more members than one, care to join?

[Kubrath]

If confirmed, this tells us that the US government have indeed established a State religion: Non-irreligion.

How exactly is Non-irreligion a religion?

[Risottia]

WTF?



If confirmed, this tells us that the US government have indeed established a State religion: Non-irreligion.

psst, the cult of the world tree needs more members than one, care to join?

Only if they allow Ignostic Atheist Pastafarians and Rational Agnostic IPUists.

[Risottia]

If confirmed, this tells us that the US government have indeed established a State religion: Non-irreligion.

How exactly is Non-irreligion a religion?

All so-called "religions" are sects of Non-irreligion.

[Julii-Nall]

On the one-hand you might say that the government should except her as a citizen...which they rightfully should!Except it just so happens that if the government accepts her on a moral basis then any coward who does not want to protect this nation when called upon, can say they cannot fight for moral reasons.They are walking a very thin line.

[Herrebrugh]

On the one-hand you might say that the government should except her as a citizen...which they rightfully should!Except it just so happens that if the government accepts her on a moral basis then any coward who does not want to protect this nation when called upon, can say they cannot fight for moral reasons.They are walking a very thin line.

Yet, she states that she is willing to help the US armed forces, just not by killing people...

[Kubrath]

How exactly is Non-irreligion a religion?

All so-called "religions" are sects of Non-irreligion.

[Yjafjord]

psst, the cult of the world tree needs more members than one, care to join?

Only if they allow Ignostic Atheist Pastafarians and Rational Agnostic IPUists.

why of course, just bang a stick against a bucket of water and scream non-sense in latin, and when someone wants you do to something you pull out freedom of belief out of your arse!

[Risottia]

All so-called "religions" are sects of Non-irreligion.

Makes sense, doesn't it?

How do you define a sect of a given cult/worship? They share some core beliefs, and have differences about some other aspects.

Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy are sects of Christianity. They share the Nicene Creed, but have differences about the leadership of the Church and about the rite.
Christianity and Islam are sects of the Abrahamic faith. They share the belief in a single creator and omnipotent God, in the story of Abraham, and a lot of other stuff, but differ about the role of some later figures.
Abrahamic faiths and Hinduism are sects of Non-irreligion. They share the belief in supernatural entities such as deities and souls, but differ about the aspects, properties and number of such entities.