Woman denied US citizenship for being Atheist

[Kubrath]

She's been living there for over 30 years! Are you really going to deny her citizenship for not being born there? The people of the United States of America are a nation of immigrants... (edit: more accurate)

The current population of the United States of America are not solely immigrants. They are no more immigrants than anyone who is not currently living in Africa are immigrants.
And greed is correct, citizenship is in no way a 'right'. Which doesn't necessarily mean she should be denied, mind...

There was another point to my comment, which it appears to have been missed. Founded by overseas colonies and having massive immigration booms, I find it staggeringly odd, with such a culture, to deny a woman, who has spent almost half her life there, citizenship.

I'm not talking about a right here, I'm talking about an opportunity, a well-deserved one at that.

[DuThaal Craftworld]

why doesn't she just start a cult about peaceful trees now that i think of it?
just have her call it her belief and start to pull off non-sense hiding behind freedom of belief to show how silly it can get?

…
…
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This seems to be the smartest way she could get out of it. After, it's her church, which makes her the equivalent of the pope within that church…

[IshCong]

why doesn't she just start a cult about peaceful trees now that i think of it?
just have her call it her belief and start to pull off non-sense hiding behind freedom of belief to show how silly it can get?

Or we could just have Welsh vs. US Round 2.
That's probably more likely to work.

[Kubrath]

Really? So you send even your elderly to war? I find that hard to believe. She has already stated that she would support the nation's military endeavours in any other way she can but not directly by bearing arms, which she has substantially justified.

That's not what greed is saying. greed is saying that she is being denied citizenship due to her unwillingness to serve and that it is that unwillingness that has disqualified her for citizenship, regardless of whether or not she ever would have served.
I disagree with greed in this matter. I've no problem with the question (especially if we'd just start adding women to the draft like we should have done a long time ago), but I do object to the religious requirements the INS seems to be requesting and I have no problems permitting COs to attain full citizenship.

No, that's exactly what he's saying. There's nothing else he could object to, because she already said she would serve in a different role, one that does not involve killing.

[IshCong]

The current population of the United States of America are not solely immigrants. They are no more immigrants than anyone who is not currently living in Africa are immigrants.
And greed is correct, citizenship is in no way a 'right'. Which doesn't necessarily mean she should be denied, mind...

There was another point to my comment, which it appears to have been missed. Founded by overseas colonies and having massive immigration booms, I find it staggeringly odd, with such a culture, to deny a woman, who has spent almost half her life there, citizenship.

I'm not talking about a right here, I'm talking about an opportunity, a well-deserved one at that.

I agree that she deserves the opportunity.
But the present population of the United States is not comprised of immigrants. Turns out, since modern humans didn't originate everywhere in the globe, pretty much all human populations can trace their roots back to mass immigration at some point or another.

[Yjafjord]

why doesn't she just start a cult about peaceful trees now that i think of it?
just have her call it her belief and start to pull off non-sense hiding behind freedom of belief to show how silly it can get?

…
…
…
This seems to be the smartest way she could get out of it. After, it's her church, which makes her the equivalent of the pope within that church…

some one tell her this...
if she doesn't do it, i think i will...

[Valkalan]

To be denied citizenship for something so petty is ridiculous.

[IshCong]

That's not what greed is saying. greed is saying that she is being denied citizenship due to her unwillingness to serve and that it is that unwillingness that has disqualified her for citizenship, regardless of whether or not she ever would have served.
I disagree with greed in this matter. I've no problem with the question (especially if we'd just start adding women to the draft like we should have done a long time ago), but I do object to the religious requirements the INS seems to be requesting and I have no problems permitting COs to attain full citizenship.

No, that's exactly what he's saying. There's nothing else he could object to, because she already said she would serve in a different role, one that does not involve killing.

No, it's not.
He's talking about her willingness to serve in a combat capacity. He is placing no requirements (that I can see) on her ability to serve in a combat capacity.
Ability. Willingness. The two aren't the same.

[Kubrath]

There was another point to my comment, which it appears to have been missed. Founded by overseas colonies and having massive immigration booms, I find it staggeringly odd, with such a culture, to deny a woman, who has spent almost half her life there, citizenship.

I'm not talking about a right here, I'm talking about an opportunity, a well-deserved one at that.

I agree that she deserves the opportunity.
But the present population of the United States is not comprised of immigrants. Turns out, since modern humans didn't originate everywhere in the globe, pretty much all human populations can trace their roots back to mass immigration at some point or another.

The case is different for the USA, which is a relatively young country.

[IshCong]

I agree that she deserves the opportunity.
But the present population of the United States is not comprised of immigrants. Turns out, since modern humans didn't originate everywhere in the globe, pretty much all human populations can trace their roots back to mass immigration at some point or another.

The case is different for the USA, which is a relatively young country.

Nope.
Some point. Some more recent than others, but still. At some point we were almost all immigrants.
The fact is, the modern population of the United States is not all immigrants and is similar to pretty much everywhere else in that regard.
So people can get off this silly "nation of immigrants" thing, because it makes no sense.

All the original colonists in America are dead. All the original colonists in England are also dead. Neither country is a nation of immigrants due to their prior colonization.

[DuThaal Craftworld]

I agree that she deserves the opportunity.
But the present population of the United States is not comprised of immigrants. Turns out, since modern humans didn't originate everywhere in the globe, pretty much all human populations can trace their roots back to mass immigration at some point or another.

The case is different for the USA, which is a relatively young country.

So is Israel.
And North Korea.

[Kubrath]

No, that's exactly what he's saying. There's nothing else he could object to, because she already said she would serve in a different role, one that does not involve killing.

No, it's not.
He's talking about her willingness to serve in a combat capacity. He is placing no requirements (that I can see) on her ability to serve in a combat capacity.
Ability. Willingness. The two aren't the same.

Ability is irrelevant here, because she is obviously to be demanded on the war front, should she have not objected, so placing no requirements on her ability in reality solves nothing.

[Kubrath]

The case is different for the USA, which is a relatively young country.

So is Israel.
And North Korea.

You're forgetting the culture of immigration. I would be inclined to agree about Israel, though.

[IshCong]

The case is different for the USA, which is a relatively young country.

So is Israel.
And North Korea.

And South Africa. And a whole ton of other post-colonization nations around the world.

[Kubrath]

So is Israel.
And North Korea.

And South Africa. And a whole ton of other post-colonization nations around the world.

Right, and they do offer citizenship. I wouldn't recommend it, though.

[IshCong]

No, it's not.
He's talking about her willingness to serve in a combat capacity. He is placing no requirements (that I can see) on her ability to serve in a combat capacity.
Ability. Willingness. The two aren't the same.

Ability is irrelevant here, because she is obviously to be demanded on the war front, should she have not objected, so placing no requirements on her ability in reality solves nothing.

Again, greed is not demanding she serve on the front lines. Both greed and I have had to point this out now. He's demanding she be willing to serve on the front lines, a fundamentally different thing.

[IshCong]

And South Africa. And a whole ton of other post-colonization nations around the world.

Right, and they do offer citizenship. I wouldn't recommend it, though.

America offers citizenship too, as it so happens. Thus, this thread.

[Yjafjord]

And South Africa. And a whole ton of other post-colonization nations around the world.

Right, and they do offer citizenship. I wouldn't recommend it, though.

i wouldn't recommend an American one as well...

[IshCong]

Right, and they do offer citizenship. I wouldn't recommend it, though.

i wouldn't recommend an American one as well...

i wouldn't recommend a Canadian one as well...

[Yjafjord]

i wouldn't recommend an American one as well...

i wouldn't recommend a Canadian one as well...

and honestly, i sort of agree with that...

[Battenburgia]

I really think that the people involved in this should realise that without immigrants like her coming to teach poor americans to write, there might be much fewer soldiers able to sign up for miltary service in the first place....so in effect she has done her bit to further their warmongering and at 64 deserves a little bit of rest ...perhaps she could spend her retirement teaching people there how to spell properly

[Tsuntion]

(Note: I'm thread hopping. And confusing theism with religion briefly.)

Well, that's dumb. Atheistic morality provides principles which are as good and valid and strong as principles derived from theistic morality. You should be able to say "no" on nonreligious grounds as well as on religious grounds, or be able to say "no" on no grounds at all.

[Yjafjord]

(Note: I'm thread hopping. And confusing theism with religion briefly.)

Well, that's dumb. Atheistic morality provides principles which are as good and valid and strong as principles derived from theistic morality. You should be able to say "no" on nonreligious grounds as well as on religious grounds, or be able to say "no" on no grounds at all.

and if that don't work

why doesn't she just start a cult about peaceful trees now that i think of it?
just have her call it her belief and start to pull off non-sense hiding behind freedom of belief to show how silly it can get?

[IshCong]

(Note: I'm thread hopping. And confusing theism with religion briefly.)

Well, that's dumb. Atheistic morality provides principles which are as good and valid and strong as principles derived from theistic morality. You should be able to say "no" on nonreligious grounds as well as on religious grounds, or be able to say "no" on no grounds at all.

and if that don't work

why doesn't she just start a cult about peaceful trees now that i think of it?
just have her call it her belief and start to pull off non-sense hiding behind freedom of belief to show how silly it can get?

Or Welsh vs. US Round 2. =T

[Kubrath]

The case is different for the USA, which is a relatively young country.

Nope.
Some point. Some more recent than others, but still. At some point we were almost all immigrants.
The fact is, the modern population of the United States is not all immigrants and is similar to pretty much everywhere else in that regard.
So people can get off this silly "nation of immigrants" thing, because it makes no sense.

All the original colonists in America are dead. All the original colonists in England are also dead. Neither country is a nation of immigrants due to their prior colonization.

Yes it does make sense, because the USA has accepted more immigrants than any other country in the world, and it hasn't been called the "Land of Opportunity" for nothing. So, are you telling me that simply because the original colonists are dead, the legacy of acceptance is also dead? What about the immigration booms throughout the 20th century? A lot of those people aren't dead, yet.